Staranais Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 I've been attempting to teach my dog a formal retrieve for months now, with little success. He has an excellent, very solid, very reliable play retrieve. I am attempting to turn that into a formal retrieve. The problem is that I have not been able to eliminate the mouthing! At the moment, I have a dog who waits nicely for me to throw, runs out quickly and brings back the dumbell, then sits in front position chewing... I have tried teaching the hold in front separately, using a clicker to mark him before he starts to chew, but can't seem to get the concept across to him (it's like his jaws work on automatic, and he can't hold the dumbell for more than a second before his jaws start up, regardless of how I mark him.) I have tried using different items, in case they were uncomfortable in his mouth, but he chews on all of them. Cloth handkercheif, plastic dumbell, wooden stick - all get munched upon. I have tried waiting for him to stop chewing so I can mark that, but he does not stop chewing (if I wait too long, all he will do is eventually drop the dumbell and try something else to get the reward). Someone suggested that I tug on the toy so he holds on more firmly, but being the well trained dog he is he just gives me the dumbell when I do that... All I can think of is maybe giving him something fragile to carry (can't think what, though - he loves the taste of egg, so that would be counter productive), and only rewarding him if he doesn't break it? That doesn't seem particularly practical. Suggestions please! How do you teach a stafford not to chew on things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 teach him to rest his chin in your hand then ask him to take the dumbell while he is pressing his chin to your hand and mark it he cant chew and hld his chin Also does the dumbell fit right often chewing is because the the dumbell is big and rolls around in their mouth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 11, 2006 Author Share Posted July 11, 2006 teach him to rest his chin in your hand then ask him to take the dumbell while he is pressing his chin to your hand and mark it he cant chew and hld his chin Yes he can! Very powerful jaws, and he's quite capable of fidgeting them while he's resting his face in my hands. Thanks for the idea though. Also does the dumbell fit right often chewing is because the the dumbell is big and rolls around in their mouth Like I said we have tried: Plastic dumbell Wooden sticks of several different diametres Various pieces of cloth And all of these get chewed upon. I can certainly invest in a smaller dumbell and give it a go, but I don't think it will solve the problem of him chewing on the cloth (which we need for scent discrimination). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 not if you teach him to be steady whenhis head is on your hand it also stops him lifting his head high so the dumbell rolls back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 (edited) Hi Am, I have been suffering this problem for ages. I like you, have been fiddling around with the clicker for ages but have not had much luck. A few old trainers have suggested putting a metal shaft on the dumb bell and taping it so it's not so nice to mouth - haven't tried this one yet. The other thing that helped is to have another toy and the second he sits take the DB and throw the other toy. This was K9's suggestion as he thought my dog had some anxiety about handing over the DB. This works in training and gets you very fast returns but I am still getting some chomping in the ring. Forgot to say, Im glad your back posting again. Edited July 11, 2006 by PAX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 12, 2006 Author Share Posted July 12, 2006 Forgot to say, Im glad your back posting again. Thanks Pax. Finding a metal retrieve item might be a good option, if I can't fix it another way, since I don't think metal would be very appealing to chew. Do you know where I could get an appropriately sized bar from, though? Perhaps a hardware store? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Am, You have to use a wooden DB and pull one of the bells off and put a piece of metal pipe over the dowell or just replace it with the right sized metal pipe. Ask around at Hardwares or a plumber might have some spare pipe. Let me know If it solves the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 I borrowed a metal retrieve item from my obedience club to get Diesel used to holding and retrieving metal objects. Does your club have any you could borrow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 12, 2006 Author Share Posted July 12, 2006 You have to use a wooden DB and pull one of the bells off and put a piece of metal pipe over the dowell or just replace it with the right sized metal pipe. That's clever - unfortunatly my dumbell is plastic! I might head off to the hardware store for some metal pipe, I'm sure I can stick some wooden blocks on the end to make a dumbell. Kavik - I'm not currently at an obedience club. I left after we got our CGC a couple of months ago, since the club really wasn't suiting my dog at all. I'm currently looking for a club that suits my dog better! Thanks for the idea, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 K9: Mouthing in the vacinity of the handler is most always stress related over a conflict with handing over the item... PAX: The other thing that helped is to have another toy and the second he sits take the DB and throw the other toy. This was K9's suggestion as he thought my dog had some anxiety about handing over the DB. This works in training and gets you very fast returns but I am still getting some chomping in the ring. K9: This is still happening as the dog hasnt got enough value for the toy & he "knows" you dont have the toy in the ring. If you correct this handler issue it will go away... What I showed you was the first step to curing this, you need to learn about delivery of the toy, presenting & location of the toy... The exchange was just a test to see if it would make a difference... Adding a steel item will not sort the chewing, its involuntary driven by the conflict... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 12, 2006 Author Share Posted July 12, 2006 K9: Mouthing in the vacinity of the handler is most always stress related over a conflict with handing over the item... Really? I know you know what you're talking about, but I should point out that this is a dog that loves to chew. He really loves to chew, for some reason. If I ever let him have the prey item when we've finished playing, he'll run off and chews it (then bring it back to me to throw again, after a while). I was kind of assuming he was just chewing cos he liked to, and cos I hadn't yet taught him not to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 My dog has huge value for the toy so I'm not quite sure how he could have more. Are you going to offer more information on this 'handler issue'? Toy presenting? delivery? and location? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 A: Really? K9: No Im just kidding.... Of course really lol... I know you know what you're talking about, but I should point out that this is a dog that loves to chew. He really loves to chew, for some reason. If I ever let him have the prey item when we've finished playing, he'll run off and chews it (then bring it back to me to throw again, after a while). K9: the prey item IS the reward, the dumbell should not be. I was kind of assuming he was just chewing cos he liked to, and cos I hadn't yet taught him not to? K9: could be, I have only worked with maybe one or two (thousand) dogs like this... Does he chew it when he first picks it up or when he gets back to you? P: Are you going to offer more information on this 'handler issue'? Toy presenting? delivery? and location? K9: cant really do this over the net... too complicated to convey via text.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lab and poodle Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Here is a thought. You can stop this mouthing in the ring with some dogs by 1) Make sure the dumbell is right for them. Make sure that they can get it ot be comfortable in the mouth as they go directly down to the dumbell. 2) Lure what you want. A dog clamping down on the bell can't mouth. Play tug of war with it Click ,bridge whatever you do to to mark the firm clamping down on the dumbbell at the beginning of the tug. Make sure that the rewards are adequate. 3) Do the usual, add a cue and reward for this firm clamping down. 4) Go for duration . Don't muck about with you treats hand them over. You are going for a reflex, you will get it and it isn't that hard,keep your cool. 5) Change the criterea for access to the reward. Reduced mouthing equals reward 5) I have found with some dogs that this process sure as hell increases their focus during retrieve. With my lab, I did do this process and he went pretty good. My poodle dosen't mouth so aren't I lucky. I have seen a couple of GSDs do really well with it, and a Rottie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 13, 2006 Author Share Posted July 13, 2006 K9: could be, I have only worked with maybe one or two (thousand) dogs like this... I know you're very probably right, it's just that he doesn't look stressed to me. Retrieving is one of his favourite games, when we're walking in the park he spends most of his offleash time looking for a stick to give to me, so I can throw it for him. Why would he do that if retrieving stressed him out? Does he chew it when he first picks it up or when he gets back to you? Both. When he's fresh, he'll run out quickly and bring it back, and only chew while he's sitting there waiting for me to take it. If he's a bit tired from lots of playing or retrieving, he'll sometimes run out and rip the stick to bits, instead of bringing it back. And sometimes even if we're not retrieving, if we're just in the yard or something, he'll go find some stick to chew on. Just lie down beside me and munch on it until the stick has been totally destroyed. Thanks K9force! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 13, 2006 Author Share Posted July 13, 2006 Here is a thought. You can stop this mouthing in the ring with some dogs by... Thanks Labandpoodle. Unfortunately, he's not keen to play tug with the dumbbell - I've already taught him to give it up to me when I reach for it! If I can't solve this any other way though, perhaps I'll start again with a different item, and try playing tug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 I know you're very probably right, it's just that he doesn't look stressed to me K9: your probably seeing the endorphin flow at its end as drive withers away... Stress may not be present but conflict over the dumbell value is... Retrieving is one of his favourite games, when we're walking in the park he spends most of his offleash time looking for a stick to give to me, so I can throw it for him. Why would he do that if retrieving stressed him out? K9: Im sure you know that retrieval is taught in separate excercies, this means that each part of the retrieve is separately rewarding or stressing... some of it he obviously likes. From what you say you have been trying to sort this for months? Trust me its what I say it is.... When he's fresh, he'll run out quickly and bring it back, and only chew while he's sitting there waiting for me to take it. K9: uh huh... If he's a bit tired from lots of playing or retrieving, he'll sometimes run out and rip the stick to bits, instead of bringing it back. K9: this isnt mouthing, its disobedience... And sometimes even if we're not retrieving, if we're just in the yard or something, he'll go find some stick to chew on. Just lie down beside me and munch on it until the stick has been totally destroyed. K9: this isnt related... Your dog needs to have less value for the item & you need to retrain this in prey drive, I absolutly guarantee its where your probelm is... For formal or professional work, you need to work in one drive only if you want pro results, not some food (click), some pack (praise & tug of war {this will cause greater conflict with your dog A}) some of other things, train in prey only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 13, 2006 Author Share Posted July 13, 2006 K9: Im sure you know that retrieval is taught in separate excercies, this means that each part of the retrieve is separately rewarding or stressing... some of it he obviously likes. I was backchaining - teaching the dumbell presentation first, then adding the pickup, then adding the runout, etc. Is that what you mean by teaching it in separate exercises? Your dog needs to have less value for the item & you need to retrain this in prey drive, I absolutly guarantee its where your probelm is...For formal or professional work, you need to work in one drive only if you want pro results, not some food (click), some pack (praise & tug of war {this will cause greater conflict with your dog A}) some of other things, train in prey only. Can you explain a little bit further what you mean? Do you mean teaching the dog to bring the dumbell back, in order to get given the prey item (like a swap, the dumbbell swapped for a higher value item, like a squeaky toy)? I can see how that would really help motivation, but how would it help the mouthing? Sorry if I'm being dense. Thanks heaps (again!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 A: I was backchaining - teaching the dumbell presentation first, then adding the pickup, then adding the runout, etc. Is that what you mean by teaching it in separate exercises? K9: yep! Can you explain a little bit further what you mean? Do you mean teaching the dog to bring the dumbell back, in order to get given the prey item (like a swap, the dumbbell swapped for a higher value item, like a squeaky toy)?I can see how that would really help motivation, but how would it help the mouthing? Sorry if I'm being dense. Thanks heaps (again!) K9: yes sort of, but as you see with Pax, its all in the way its done... It helps because the dog has no conflict with the dumbell & you, if the conflict continues, it will go to the toy, not the dumbell & the mouthing will go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 13, 2006 Author Share Posted July 13, 2006 K9: yes sort of, but as you see with Pax, its all in the way its done... It helps because the dog has no conflict with the dumbell & you, if the conflict continues, it will go to the toy, not the dumbell & the mouthing will go... I'll swap my clicker & food for a squeaky toy then, and see what happens to his retrieve... hey, can't get worse! Thanks for all your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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