Behavioural Issues

[Ruffles]

Loki (9 month old Amstaff) developed some, what we thought was dog aggression a few months ago. Since it first developed we have tested and tried a few different situations and it appears that he will make a fuss when on the lead if a dog is approaching ME or in my vacinity.

We will be at a dog show and His breeder can take him out no worries but as soon as I have him he becomes nasty.

My OH takes him out to play with other dogs and he never has a problem with him.

Also, just in the last week he will not let me be alone.

If I am in the bathroom with the door closed (sliding door) he will come and push it open a few inches then go and lay back down. He will do this 5 or 6 times then if I keep closing the door he will open it and sit between the door and the jam so I cant close it again!

Loki does this even when my OH is home and in the next room.

I am not pregnant so it cant be that!

Does anyone have an ideas or suggestions for me? We are going to get him assessed in the next month because whilst his obsessivness isnt causing an issue now I feel that it will only get worse.

I am only a small woman (5'3") but he has been given no reason to try and guard me and we certainly dont encourage this sort of thing.

Help please?

ETA: Do you think he is trying to Dominate me???

Edited July 11, 2006 by Ruffles

[BrunoBella]

Definitely a dominance/leadership issue. If Loki behaves for other people then he's playing up cause he doesn't consider you the leader.

There is some great reading here and in the puppy forum on dominance and how to be the boss .

I'm not the best on describing what to do as have just been figuring out most of this stuff myself with Bella who had me trained It's not hard to reverse, just need to follow some steps.

Have fun ;)

[Alison1474]

Try having a look at K9 Force's NILIF and Triangle of Temptation tecniques. They both work wonderfully.

[Ruffles]

But what about the watching me constantly issue ?

It seems to be a protective thing when he gets nasty towards other dogs... I should have added that if my OH has him on the lead and I am near them and a dog approaches me he arks up too.

[Erny]

But what about the watching me constantly issue ?

It seems to be a protective thing when he gets nasty towards other dogs... I should have added that if my OH has him on the lead and I am near them and a dog approaches me he arks up too.

By your description/s, Ruffles, it does sound as though your dog perceives himself as leader .... and you as his 'pack' member (lower in heirarchy). The "leader's" function is to guard and protect the pack. Following you around is, I would expect, simply him supervising what you do and where you are.

Definately look at exercising leadership. Not as you might perceive it (ie human values) but as the dog would perceive it.

The suggestions to follow the "NILIF program" as well as "Triangle of Temptation" are good ones. Also make sure that YOU initiate ALL contact and not the other way around. Everything should be done on your terms, not his. Searching through the DOL archives will certainly bring up lots of reading and good advice on how to go about these things.

ETA: Oh, and if you don't do so already, I'd also suggest that you be involved in your dog's obedience training in conjunction with the above. Obedience training is a good way of reminding the dog that you WILL and CAN govern what he does and when he will do it. But it doesn't often work, or doesn't necessarily work well unless the other things you do in day to day life with your dog, are in place.

Edited July 11, 2006 by Erny

[Ruffles]

Ok, Just read the Triangle of Temptation training technique.

Loki will not eat until he is told to, nor will he stare at his food till he is allowed to eat it. He will watch me or my OH until he is told OK. If you put down his bowl and leave the room he will sit by it and wait, sometimes for half an hour until you come and tell him its ok so we definately have that down pat!

So I shouldnt let him seek me out for attention etc? I should go to him?

[Erny]

Ok, Just read the Triangle of Temptation training technique.

Loki will not eat until he is told to, nor will he stare at his food till he is allowed to eat it. He will watch me or my OH until he is told OK. If you put down his bowl and leave the room he will sit by it and wait, sometimes for half an hour until you come and tell him its ok so we definately have that down pat!

This is a good Ruffles, but you could go further if you wish (certainly wouldn't do any harm). If the food bowl (with food in it) was between you and your dog (at distances), would you be able to recall him to you and have him come to you without stopping for the food?

So I shouldnt let him seek me out for attention etc? I should go to him?

It is not a matter of stopping him from seeking you out for attention, per sei. It is more a matter of NOT giving him attention (and that includes eye contact) WHEN he seeks it. A search using the DOL search engine will give you lots of details in relation to these things.

Edited July 11, 2006 by Erny

[Ruffles]

Loki is not food driven at all so yes, I would be able to recall him without him stopping for food.

We got asked to leave obedience remember But we are going to start with ADT next month because they dont discriminate against breed.

NILIF... I get it now! I will search and read some more and start on asserting myself as soon as I get home.

Thanks heaps guys for the clarification! Keep the ideas comin!

eta: Of course dogs are food driven but Loki would rather a pat than eating under normal circumstances

Edited July 11, 2006 by Ruffles

[BrunoBella]

NILIF is what Bella and I are working on at the moment. She has had me trained to respond to her requests and I am slowly turning this around. We are both much happier now and her listening to me has improved dramatically. I can hardly believe it

Dogs are smart and sneaky, they keep trying to figure out more ways to beat us

[Erny]

We got asked to leave obedience remember But we are going to start with ADT next month because they dont discriminate against breed.

.......... or temperament issues. What Centre, Ruffles? Don't have to post here - PM me if you prefer. ;)

[Ruffles]

yeah that either lol.

Well we are moving to Narre Warren but since I work Saturdays I wont be able to get to the Berwick one so at this point in time I dont know Any suggestions?

[Erny]

yeah that either lol.

Well we are moving to Narre Warren but since I work Saturdays I wont be able to get to the Berwick one so at this point in time I dont know Any suggestions?

I would suggest either the Springvale Centre (now at Noble Park) or Boronia. Both run on Sunday afternoons. From where you are, the Noble Park venue might be closer, although I tend to find that time-wise, both are much of a muchness because of the different roads and traffic conditions.

It takes me about the same time to get to Scoresby (which runs on Sunday mornings) too.

So, it would seem you have some choices - ones that you can make and vary, depending on whether you've had a hard night partying the night before and whether you need a sleep in or not!

[Ruffles]

LOL Me? Party? Nah I've got two dogs at home who I'd rather spend time with haha

I was thinking of going to the Scoresby one. Its only about 20-25 mins from our new place Via the free way and I might know some people because I actually live about 2 mins from Chesterfield farm right now.

Edited July 11, 2006 by Ruffles

[Herr Rottweiler]

I'll see ya there!

[jaybeece]

I can give you a couple of suggestions as my dog is similar in a few ways. He is very protective of me and will lunge at other dogs when I'm walking him. He'll also get worked up over people who approach front on staring at him.

Part of this is a trust issue where he doesn't trust that I can protect myself or him. NILIF and TOT are both used, but don't seem to help at all as these things are practiced for the most part at home where we have very few problems. It seems to be more to do with him being insecure and nervy while in environments that he's uncertain in. At the dog park he's so relaxed he's never aggressive for this reason, whereas at the local shops and dog school he's a basket case. The cause is probably not the same for your dog Ruffles, but some of the following stuff might help. I can't imagine it will do any harm anyway.

What I do for my dog is for one have him sit when he's feeling challenged as it's a neutral position for him. Dropping tends to upset him as it's too submussive and standing is definately out as it seems more of a dominant/aggressive stance for him. I'll redirect him to prevent problems so I'm between him and the person/dog who's upset him. If I'm between him and them and still calm it helps him understand that he doesn't need to guard me, it's my job to do that for him. Another thing that has been very effective is having him sit while people/dogs are coming straight towards us and give him food so he builds up a positive association with the oncoming being. Obviously if he shows signs of reacting badly the food stops. The food helps to pacify him, provides a great distraction and, as I said, builds up a positive association with oncoming beings to get rid of all the bad ones he has from the past.

One more thing- is he protective at home? My boy is and will sometimes become on edge over the smallest noises in the front of the house. About a month ago I was told (can't for the life of me remember who suggested this) to let him bark a couple of times, then tell him to sit at the door, walk infront of him to put myself between him and the perceived threat, then calmly open the door, show him that there's nothing to worry about and give the command to release so he can check it out too. Basically shows him his glorious leader is on top of things and he has no need for alarm. It's worked so well that he's becoming a lousy guard dog. He just looks at me as if to say "Well, you know what, I don't think I need to bark anymore. Go check it out will you?".

[Ruffles]

I can give you a couple of suggestions as my dog is similar in a few ways. He is very protective of me and will lunge at other dogs when I'm walking him. He'll also get worked up over people who approach front on staring at him.

Part of this is a trust issue where he doesn't trust that I can protect myself or him. NILIF and TOT are both used, but don't seem to help at all as these things are practiced for the most part at home where we have very few problems. It seems to be more to do with him being insecure and nervy while in environments that he's uncertain in.

This does sound Like Loki ALOT.

What I do for my dog is for one have him sit when he's feeling challenged as it's a neutral position for him. Dropping tends to upset him as it's too submussive and standing is definately out as it seems more of a dominant/aggressive stance for him. I'll redirect him to prevent problems so I'm between him and the person/dog who's upset him. If I'm between him and them and still calm it helps him understand that he doesn't need to guard me, it's my job to do that for him. Another thing that has been very effective is having him sit while people/dogs are coming straight towards us and give him food so he builds up a positive association with the oncoming being. Obviously if he shows signs of reacting badly the food stops. The food helps to pacify him, provides a great distraction and, as I said, builds up a positive association with oncoming beings to get rid of all the bad ones he has from the past.

I Have tried getting him to sit but he goes mental the closer they get to me. He is also not particularly motivated by food. But I will give it ago. Although, one thing I havent tried (because I'm fearful of the outcome) is to have both our dogs out and be approached by another dog. I would be interested to see if he becomes aggressive when Rinsey is around because the other dog wouldnt pose a threat to all three of us

One more thing- is he protective at home? My boy is and will sometimes become on edge over the smallest noises in the front of the house. About a month ago I was told (can't for the life of me remember who suggested this) to let him bark a couple of times, then tell him to sit at the door, walk infront of him to put myself between him and the perceived threat, then calmly open the door, show him that there's nothing to worry about and give the command to release so he can check it out too. Basically shows him his glorious leader is on top of things and he has no need for alarm. It's worked so well that he's becoming a lousy guard dog. He just looks at me as if to say "Well, you know what, I don't think I need to bark anymore. Go check it out will you?".

Oh god is he protective at home! Especially when my OH isnt home. He will get up at the slightest noise, sometimes ones I dont even hear and will not calm down until I get up and tell him that its ok.

Thanks jaybeece it seems that you have similar problems with your boy. I will definately try your ideas!

Loki also seems to have sleeping problems... He wakes up going absolutely off-tap and will not quieten down until I go and see him. Would this be the same problem do you think??

[jaybeece]

I Have tried getting him to sit but he goes mental the closer they get to me. He is also not particularly motivated by food. But I will give it ago. Although, one thing I havent tried (because I'm fearful of the outcome) is to have both our dogs out and be approached by another dog. I would be interested to see if he becomes aggressive when Rinsey is around because the other dog wouldnt pose a threat to all three of us

My dog isn't all that motivated by food either, but it still works well for him. Food is supposed to be an excellent pacifyer/destresser so can still be effective even if it's not a motivator. Just be mindful that when you've got food in one hand it means only one hand controlling the dog, so only use it when you know he's not at the point of reacting yet. I learnt this the hard way when 40kg of dog lunged suddenly and I only had one hand on the lead (still held him, but he nearly dislocated my shoulder!)

Another thing I forgot to mention before is that I pay close attention to the tension on my dog's collar. The more tension on the collar, the more tense the he becomes. If you think they're about to react, one of the worst things to do it pull hard because it almost cues the dog to do react. Instead I keep everything light and happy, give small tugs on the lead and encourage the dog to come around back to me. Keeping my body language relaxed and tone happy means he relaxes more.

Thanks jaybeece it seems that you have similar problems with your boy. I will definately try your ideas!

No problem good luck, hope some of the suggestions help!

Loki also seems to have sleeping problems... He wakes up going absolutely off-tap and will not quieten down until I go and see him. Would this be the same problem do you think??

Could be...he might be waiting on reassurance that everything's ok when he hears something strange?

Edited July 12, 2006 by jaybeece

[Steve K9Pro]

I am only a small woman (5'3") but he has been given no reason to try and guard me and we certainly dont encourage this sort of thing.

K9: he will not be trying to protect you as in for your own safety, he may be resource guarding you or be fear aggressive, only an observation will tell.

Regardless, its a leadership issue.

Loki will not eat until he is told to, nor will he stare at his food till he is allowed to eat it. He will watch me or my OH until he is told OK. If you put down his bowl and leave the room he will sit by it and wait, sometimes for half an hour until you come and tell him its ok so we definately have that down pat!

K9: so if he can do that so easily it wont be commanding any respect when you give him his food so easily, you need to take this much further...

J: He is very protective of me and will lunge at other dogs when I'm walking him. He'll also get worked up over people who approach front on staring at him.

K9: this dog is not being protective of you... He also see's himself as the leader...

J: Part of this is a trust issue where he doesn't trust that I can protect myself or him.

K9: this would indicate that he is fea aggressive then...

NILIF and TOT are both used, but don't seem to help at all as these things are practiced for the most part at home where we have very few problems.

K9: they are a support program for others that will reduce / elimate the aggression, not a cure alone...

What I do for my dog is for one have him sit when he's feeling challenged as it's a neutral position for him.

K9: this is a mistake, your showing him that you will make him stay in the face of danger...

J: out as it seems more of a dominant/aggressive stance for him.

K9: earlier you said he is nervy which is fear?

This can only be treated by knowing what the problem is, ie having it diagnosed.

[jaybeece]

K9- sorry, sometimes my wording of things ain't the best. Yes, my dog is definately fear aggressive, in fact it's easy to pick it as he's very expressive.

Whether or not my dog sees himself as the leader...well, I don't think he's 100% certain of me as his alpha which is part of his problem, but in general he does look to me. Having him sit when confronted by things that would make him nervous is working very well, but I will not make him sit if he is showing signs of actual fear. It's tricky to describe exactly what we do without demonstrating it, but I assure you if he starts to shake or look distressed we walk away. The reason why I mentioned standing being a more "dominant" position is because he also has trouble with male dogs, still fear related, but he appears to feel more challenged by them and is far quicker to react badly. Sitting just seems to make him far more at ease and relaxed than standing.

While I do understand what you mean when you say "this is a mistake, your showing him that you will make him stay in the face of danger..." , what I'm trying to show him is that the danger isn't really there and making these experiences positive ones. I'm trying to eradicate the memory of any bad associations with these perceived challenges in order to wipe the slate clean and help him relearn more appropriate ways of handling his feelings.

If these things hadn't caused a massive improvement in him recently I wouldn't have mentioned them at all, but they certainly have. To say we've been through a lot of trial and error is an understatement! He's been aggressive towards other dogs/people in the street for as long as I've had him (close on a year), but in only a month I've got him sitting confidently on the nature strip while other dogs and people pass. No signs of shaking, licking lips, arousal or even a fearful look in his eyes. He's becoming significantly more relaxed. The other (and my favourite) reason I know it's working? For the first time, he's started to wag his tail while walking down the street His overall body language is so much more relaxed too. In fact, he watched a bird yesterday on our walk, fluttering around overhead, with absolute fascination...doesn't sound like a big deal really, but it meant he had to take his eyes off the road in front of him. It meant that he had to drop his guard for a few seconds which previously would never have happened.

I also don't see NILIF or TOT as a complete solution, they definately aren't. The only reason I mentioned them is they are often suggested as almost a "cure-all" for any of these kind of problems. I do agree that while they can help, they certainly aren't going to fix everything.

[Steve K9Pro]

Having him sit when confronted by things that would make him nervous is working very well, but I will not make him sit if he is showing signs of actual fear.

K9: I have seen similar things show results too, in fact I used something simlair until a few years ago when I found that I got some results, but never removed the aggression totally.

While I do understand what you mean when you say "this is a mistake, your showing him that you will make him stay in the face of danger..." , what I'm trying to show him is that the danger isn't really there and making these experiences positive ones. I'm trying to eradicate the memory of any bad associations with these perceived challenges in order to wipe the slate clean and help him relearn more appropriate ways of handling his feelings.

K9: what often happens though is that the dog enters drive peak & in this frame of mind, there is no data recording so the positive experience is not remembered.

If though that the event turns to aggression, defence drive motor pattern is run & what is remembered is that aggression is still a useful tool.

If these things hadn't caused a massive improvement in him recently I wouldn't have mentioned them at all, but they certainly have. To say we've been through a lot of trial and error is an understatement! He's been aggressive towards other dogs/people in the street for as long as I've had him (close on a year), but in only a month I've got him sitting confidently on the nature strip while other dogs and people pass. No signs of shaking, licking lips, arousal or even a fearful look in his eyes.

K9: thats great news, as I said, I used & documented similar until only a few years ago when I felt that it was a double edged sword, showed early improvement but never "extinguished" the aggression.

I also don't see NILIF or TOT as a complete solution, they definately aren't. The only reason I mentioned them is they are often suggested as almost a "cure-all" for any of these kind of problems. I do agree that while they can help, they certainly aren't going to fix everything.

K9: agreed & they arent meant to, though some people with minor problems that they feel were serious have seen total cures just by using them.

Im really glad things are going well for your dog.

Edited July 13, 2006 by K9 Force