Erny Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 L & P. Your posts do not indicate/reveal that you fully understand what you speak of. The forthrightness of your opinion when you don't truley know the extent of the nature of the dog or circumstances, and your judgement without openmindedness to trial, would probably not suit the generally very open attitude of the wonderful members of the training school in any event. However, if you were to change your mind and dare to enquire and learn of the school and its activities, I know you would still be made to feel welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 CC - A very fairminded approach, CC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Thankyou erny Im tired of all th club bashing and who does what best personally i'd liek to see clubs and schools come togetehr and share experiences and ideas maybe help bring in speakers and share resources because the way thigns are with the clubs all shutting each other out we cant move forward I ve been to traditional clubs and reward based clubs and they all fall short soemwhere im talking community clubs here I cant say whether i'd approve or disapprove of ADT but i can say at least you guys jump in and try to work through peoples problems rather than dump them in the too hard basket or pass them off to others or worse ignore them in hope they will go away I just wish other clubs were willing to learn and listen and open their minds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 So what do you do when the only clubs within 90 minutes drive of you are community clubs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Rottweiler Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Mr Herr RottweillerI used to wonder what your school did as I passed it every Saturday on my way home from the groceries. Now I know so I wont have to pop in to check it out and sample a free lesson with my new dog or tell my friends that it could be an alternative to our local Obedience Club. For that, I thank you. I am very busy and you have saved me time. As Erny said L&P, I wont hold it against you that you chose to behave in such a way. I treat people in the same manner than I'm treated and yes, I took offense to your original post. I thought the advice that you offered Raven was destructive rather than being constructive and helpful. That's your choice not to visit one of the ADT centres, if you wanted to visit, you would be welcomed like everyone else providing you leave your crowbar at home. Best wishes with your training endevours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 CC - in response to your post (#43). You sound like the sort of person who would be great as an instructor (if you're not already?). Level headed and reasonable. States your mind, but sees the big picture. Ever think of doing the NDTF course? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 (edited) So what do you do when the only clubs within 90 minutes drive of you are community clubs? FP - not all community clubs are "bad" (per sei) but I have come to know of many who lack in a broad range of knowledge of canine behaviour and that in itself can lead to difficulties. There are numerous people who I have assisted and who have come from community based schools. Either their club was unwilling to help or in the absence of knowing how, ignored the problems as if they didn't exist. But there are also many people who successfully train their dogs to a level they are happy with and don't necessarily endure the problems which would make them entertain the need for higher level expertise. There are also a few very good, knowledgeable people at Community based schools. The problem is knowing where and who they are. In answer to your question (in quotes, above) .... I guess, if the school you're with is not to your liking ...... you move house? Sorry - said with tongue in cheek. I know it's not that easy and I don't intend to be flippant. Another alternative would be to spend the time to BECOME an instructor. Given my previous post directed to CC, it will sound like I'm on the beat for NDTF course sales .... there's certainly nothing in it for me (other than I get to meet you ). But maybe doing the course and building your own personal skills and knowledge will sufficiently allow you to pick and chose how to work your dog at dog school, without relying on trusting the tuition being given at the time. It gives you the confidence to chose whether you wish to take it or leave it. Edited July 12, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lab and poodle Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 "and your judgement without openmindedness to trial" I need two things to be convinced 1) It must work 2) It must be soundly based in theory. If you did my job, which is pretty practical, you learn quickly that both are important. when looking for training I do actually read a wide span. I look at the ideas and I apply the above tests. I read Schutzhund books, Tracking Books, Conventinal training, and of couse posiitve training. I try them out on my dogs. (Yes I still train my Old boy. We have been working through the UDX exercises ). My main objection to violent or force orientated approaches to dogs as that the prognosis for future developement is not good. It dosen't meet either of the two criterea. Therefore it should not be used on other peoples dogs. I freely admit that community and paid clubs have their problems and have a duty of care to make sure this does not happen. I despair about getting the message about this violence across. This despair is even deeper after this experience.I think that when this happens a couple of sticks of gelly so to speak to get some reaction is called for. Unfortunately, no one took the dog's part. No one asked how the dog experienced this forced drop. No one asked what the hell the dog learned. When two people appraoch me in this place I am going to get mauled? What? I am sad for all of us that us dog lovers care so little. Before you start making assumptions about being hopelessly theoretical( try it you will like it ,you don't know what you are talking about) my life has include many years at trade level, a couple of years living on the street during the peak of the last recession, and more violence than you would care to mention. I therefore want no truck of any method that uses this violence on moral grounds as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 I've already walked away from one club for a variety of reasons... should've done it months ago but you live you learn. I'm happier at the club I now attend but I always wonder... At least now I have more confidence in whats right and whats wrong from this forum I would LOVE to become an instructor but I still have a lot to learn. Where can I find more info on the NDTF course? :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Feralpup thast a hard question to answer im fortunate in that i dont need to go to classes but i still fnd myself fliting from one place to another in search of a club i feel comfortable and can get what i want without feeling on the outer. Erny Thankyou yes i did look into the ndtf course but its too expensive for me to undertake as part of my hobby. Actually i was recently asked if i'd consider taking on the challenge of training cocordinator and aftera lt of thought i turnd it down simply because dogs are my passion and i dont want to get lost in the politics of clubs.. I love trianing dogs i love helping other people train their dgs but where i am now i can pick and choose when and who i help unike you guys that have to listen to excuses and deal with the 'fun' people I dont envy you lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 (edited) I need two things to be convinced 1) It must work 2) It must be soundly based in theory. Ticks on both counts. You'd still be welcome to join the First Timer's program, L & P - you would learn/see first hand that your "criteria" is easily met. By the tone of your posts, though, I doubt we will see you. The main thing is that you enjoy your training experiences and achieve the successes you desire. In this, I wish you all the best. Edited July 12, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 FP - National Dog Trainers Federation This is the link to NDTF website. It is an intensive course, packed with a tonne of information and practical experience training. Yes, CC - it is a lot of money (not to suggest it's not worth it). I originally did the course to help me learn to understand more deeply the behaviour issues my dog had when I adopted her. Not only did this help with the progress in my dog's behavioural rehabilitation, but from there I became a trainer. I have furthered my studies since and as a result have taken a completely different career change from what I used to do. The only thing that disappoints me is that they have run out of new courses for me to do (for the moment, anyway ). So I guess what started as a 'self-interest' exercise, has become a fully fledged occupational career opportunity. And I gotta say, I absolutely love it and haven't looked back once. :rolleyes: For me, it is all money well worth spending. It is a personal choice as to what you want to do with it, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 FP - not all community clubs are "bad" (per sei) but I have come to know of many who lack in a broad range of knowledge of canine behaviour and that in itself can lead to difficulties... But there are also many people who successfully train their dogs to a level they are happy with and don't necessarily endure the problems which would make them entertain the need for higher level expertise. I hear ya! I had this problem years ago, when I started training my stafford at a community based school. Most of the instructors there had only trained a couple of dogs, and they had never seen such severe rank-based dog aggression before. My dog got worst while we went to that school - he learnt that he could get away with absolutely anything (including posturing and fighting) and the only consequence was that he would get a treat when he stopped, or at the worst possibly be removed from the scene and told 'BAH!'. I quit when I worked out that my dog was, basically, being used as their guinea pig. If I ever go back, it will only be to use their dogs as distractions. Their hearts were in the right place, but I definately got what I paid for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 (edited) Absolutely Erny education is the key education of instructors trainers and the general public. you can never know enough and noone knows it all. I admire your passion about your work thats great maybe you should start on a bachelor of behavioural science or look into courses like training and workplace assessment to enhance your skills while you wait for more courses aimed and dog trainers . We all come from different walks of life personaly i dont have the patience with people to work as a dog trianing instructor. Give me the dogs but leave th howners at home and im happy heheh One thing would love to see is the VCA start taking on a much more eductaive role for club instructrs the so called course they have is useless at present I would also like to see clubs maybe start helping send instructors to formal courses and seminars to further their knowledge Edited July 12, 2006 by caninecoach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravensmyst00 Posted July 13, 2006 Author Share Posted July 13, 2006 ok guys this is probably going to sound uneducated in dog training because i know nothing about dog training. i am just sharing this thought because it is something that crossed my mind as i was reading the original post.is there any chance at all that this dog could have a hearing impairment?? maybe he isn't hearing the commands properly and has just given up, whereas with the hand commands he knew exactly what was expected of him? no flaming me for this thought either!! ravensmyst good luck with getting your dogs focuse back cheers oonga He hears quite well actually. Just selective at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravensmyst00 Posted July 13, 2006 Author Share Posted July 13, 2006 Mr Herr RottweillerI used to wonder what your school did as I passed it every Saturday on my way home from the groceries. Now I know so I wont have to pop in to check it out and sample a free lesson with my new dog or tell my friends that it could be an alternative to our local Obedience Club. For that, I thank you. I am very busy and you have saved me time. L&P - not sure what your problem is. Your crow bar comment though amusing was not something I would ever consider. The correction issue was with one person and they have never gone near my dog again. To think that because of my comment you automatically judge the entire ADT is very wrong and should not be done. I have recommended them to several of my friends and upcoming Bullmastiff owners and will continue to recommend them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravensmyst00 Posted July 13, 2006 Author Share Posted July 13, 2006 As a bit of an update. I have been having private conversations with Haven and HR and should the weather improve a bit today Xander and I will be going to training tonight and yes I will be freezing my backside off as Xander ate one pair of my gloves a few weeks ago and the other pair ended up soaking up an entire bottle of baby oil from my show pack. Never knew leather could hold so much! LOL. Haven has been around Xander since I started ADT so she has watched him grow up and she knows what he is like. We will be working on regaining his focus. I hope to get the chance to meet up with HR as well. To those that have posted many of you have offered great advice and help. At this time I am going to keep working with the trainers at ADT and who knows we may get some improvement should I not see any improvement I will look at other options. This thread was in no way to be looked as a club bashing thread and I am glad that most who posted did refrain from that. Please should you have any ideas or suggestions on how I might be able to get Xander's focus and enthusiasm back I will add it to my list of things to try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravensmyst00 Posted July 13, 2006 Author Share Posted July 13, 2006 "I despair about getting the message about this violence across. This despair is even deeper after this experience.I think that when this happens a couple of sticks of gelly so to speak to get some reaction is called for. Unfortunately, no one took the dog's part. No one asked how the dog experienced this forced drop. No one asked what the hell the dog learned. When two people appraoch me in this place I am going to get mauled? What? I am sad for all of us that us dog lovers care so little. It happened once and only once by one person. They never came near my dog again. What I may view as a severe correction may not be viewed as the same by others. Do not condemn a club or training organisation because of the actions of one person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lab and poodle Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 I was looking for the following 1) A clear indication and admittance of a problem 2) An explanation as to how it happened 3) What systems were to be put in place so it didn't happen in the future These are commercial standards. At work, at home, I am perfectly reasonable about such things. if i get this, yes I will deal with you, you sound like on the ball people. If I don't, well I will just move on to the next company that does. I didn't hear these things, I just got a truck load of abuse, so I figure it is just another company not worth dealing with. on to the next one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Rottweiler Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 I believe that you were pulled up for a reason L&P! If you don't believe that to be the case, please re read your original post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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