Re-establishing Focus

[haven]

"I was told off by the trainers for using hand signals because in their eyes dogs need to learn vocal commands first then later on we move to hand signals. "

This is so totally stupid, and flies in the face of how dogs operate, i.e great body language poor oral language. I always train with voice and signal. If anything, I fade the voice.

FYI One of the reasons ADT recommend clients concentrate on verbal commands in the early stages of training is because most of them have trouble reliably getting their dogs attention. They come to training with puppies or adolescent dogs who got eyeballs for christmas and often the owner can't compete with all the other exciting things to look at at training, like the other dogs and owners. Focus is gradually taught and highly valued, but most clients want their dog to sit and sit now. Hand signals don't work if the dog isn't looking at you, so we teach voice control first.

Having said that no-one is ever forced into doing things in that order, one of our mottos is "we train your dog to your requirements."

Ravenmyst00, if you prefer using hand signals, you will find that you are more than welcome to use them.

Lab and poodle I'm happy to flash my credentials if you are

Edited July 11, 2006 by haven

[Herr Rottweiler]

"

This is so totally stupid, and flies in the face of how dogs operate, i.e great body language poor oral language. I always train with voice and signal. If anything, I fade the voice. I almost bet there experience and ability is poor, and the last time they actually read and observed anything was when they were on their mummy's knee.

If they are commercial sue them. As for the drop, the best approach to get these oafs to understand what they are doing is to crack a decent sized crow(pinch) bar over their heads to force a drop on them. You must be really careful doing this though as there is a fair chance that the pinch bar may bend and have no effect on them. if this is so, run.

Besides this, the slower the dog, the more care you must take, the more skilful and consistent you must be as a trainer. Look up the APDT, or somewhere where people treat dogs with kindness and compassion and generally put the ironmongery and e gadgets in the bin where they belong. For heavens sake do a fin (shark) check. where are you credentials? Referees? Philospophy? I think dog training is as bad as real estate.

I really couldn't tell whether you were being serious or stupid when I read your post Lab and Poodle? Either way, I think your post is a little out of order. Maybe the organisation may want to sue you for your remarks? Especially the part where you are recommending that Raven should take her revenge on the trainer with a crow bar?

Mistakes do happen from time to time in training and perhaps the individual in question misread the character of the dog to begin with, after all, most mastiff are big strong, powerful dogs.

Raven, there are people aware of your issue. They will be happy to discuss it with you on a Thursday night and I will be monitoring the situation very closely.

L&P, be nice and if you can't be nice

Edited July 11, 2006 by Herr Rottweiler

[wheres my rock]

i think lab poodle was being tongue in cheek anyway bottom line is if soemthing aint boke dont fix it so if someone is happy using hand signals and it works for them let it be

Edited July 12, 2006 by caninecoach

[Kavik]

On the use of hand signals - I would guess that they want people to use voice because sometimes the dog will obey on hand signals but not voice commands as dogs pick up the hand signals quicker. And then people think their dog should know the voice command, and correct it for non compliance, when it really only responded to the hand signals and doesn't understand voice is the same.

I actually get in trouble with my club for the opposite reason! I tend to focus more on voice commands, and my club being a trialling club want all the signals at once, voice, hand and foot. So I often don't give the hand signal for drop as Diesel will drop on voice only and they want me to do hand signals as well. He will drop on hand signals as well, I think I just find it easier when handling lead and clicker etc to do voice only as I still take a bit of time to organise hands if holding stuff.

[ravensmyst00]

This thread was not designed to be an attack on the obedience people I am currently dealing with.

Haven - had you seen Xander when he was in puppy and basic his focus on me was immence wouldnt take his eyes off me. Will speak with you further on this via PM.

I can honestly say there have been some trainers at ADT that have been more than helpful with Xander and have gone the extra mile with me. So I have not problems with them. Its unfortunate that there have been a couple that have ruined it a bit.

I am currently trying to go back to hand signals with hopes that Xander will start focusing but I have a feeling it will be a long road ahead in an attempt to get him to return to the level he was at previously.

[Herr Rottweiler]

Raven, that will happen anywhere you train. Some trainers you bond with and find their information helpful and beneficial and others may not understand your dog very well.

Two helpful bits of advice that I may offer you;

1. Simply say to the trainers that you are working with [insert name] and you are following a program they have set for you.

2. Be wary of some of the advice on DOL as 80% of the advice comes from people who have only ever trained 1 or 2 dogs and it's usually emotive rather than beneficial.

[lab and poodle]

"Lab and poodle I'm happy to flash my credentials if you are "

1)I have a pst graduate diploma in Adult education (post an Honours degree in Maths).and taught at TAFE for 4 years. I know a little bit about teaching people. I am often told I am a good instructor too. I am very fond of telling people the truth, that I am not the dictionairy on dogs, but these are the (positive) methods that I know have worked. Try them and see for yourself. I have been told I treat people in my class in a positive and respectful manner. I must say that I take classes with a hidden agenda, I wish to encourage people to trial their dogs.

2) I have no credentials at dog training other than my dogs and their behaviour and their titles.(CDX and TDX). My dog is in front of the class with me (at 12.5! and is a wonderful well loved dog by other people and dogs.). My mini poodle looks like she will have a decent crack at TQT when she is 6 or 7 months old. That's all I have and thats why I don't take money for teaching dogs and won't. I expect others to do the same.

3) I have seen both sides of the track though as far as training goes. My old boy experienced a few forced downs induced by me until I learnt better. One was in a puddle. Ever since , he has been a bit wary about puddles.

4)Please have a sense of humour. I am in this to have fun, to be emoitional about my dogs, and hopefully show how good my dogs are by trialling them. My dogs are pets. They live with me. My old boy even gets some time on the bed. The are happy well cared for dogs.

Here is my adversive today. I won't use them on dogs often, but humans understand them.

Mr Herr Rotweiller, what the hell gives you the right to tell me what not or what to say or do? I won't be nice about stuff that isn't. Forced downs aren't. Show me a peer reviewed article in any well respected journal on companion animal behaviour written in the last five years that says so, and I will review it. This is a democracy. If you don't like what I say, then say so, don't shut me up. If you need for me to be quiet on certain topics be honest . Tell the rest of the listers what these topics are. Retitle this forum so trainers like myself with a divergent point of view don't waste our time.

[Erny]

[Herr Rottweiler]

Erny, you took the emoticon right out of my screen

Lab & Poodle, you missed the point and in turn you have made yourself even more foolish.

[lab and poodle]

Rottweiller.

L&P, be nice and if you can't be nice

And a be quiet emoticon.

It is a very bossy controlling thing to say. I will explain it further if you need me to.

I replied "Mr Herr Rotweiller, what the hell gives you the right to tell me what not or what to say or do? I won't be nice about stuff that isn't." Perfectly justified.

You might direct other people like this, but never never me.

[Herr Rottweiler]

Here are some facts!

1. I would never argue maths with you, because I would feel foolish and out of my league.

2. I don't advise people on here to cave a trainers head in with a crow bar

3. I'm happy for you to have your say but I don't have to suffer a fool so go sell crazy somewhere else

[oonga]

ok guys this is probably going to sound uneducated in dog training because i know nothing about dog training. i am just sharing this thought because it is something that crossed my mind as i was reading the original post.

is there any chance at all that this dog could have a hearing impairment??

maybe he isn't hearing the commands properly and has just given up, whereas with the hand commands he knew exactly what was expected of him?

no flaming me for this thought either!!

ravensmyst good luck with getting your dogs focuse back

cheers

oonga

[Erny]

Whilst that could always be a possibility, Oonga, I doubt it in this case. I expect the OP would have noticed other nuances in areas other than obedience at training school and intermittantly at shows (indoors).

I think there is a clue in what the OP said in a further post, though .....

R:

One day he will be animated then next its a case of "cant be bothered."

Rave - I haven't seen you train so I have refrained from comment, for the most part, here. My thoughts relate to the dog's motivation levels. When I'm working a dog, if the dog receives a correction, I will go to town and back to give it something of value once the dog complies and is released. Whatever the level of correction, I look to the reward to be on a considerably higher level than that.

Some dogs are more difficult to motivate than others .... I know that for fact from experience. And it's not necessarily that your dog received a correction or that hand signals were removed. I recently worked with a very laid back bully breed dog. So laid back you would be forgiven for thinking lazy. I used to work this dog first up in the very icey cold mornings ..... because it proved to be a great warm up exercise for me (to the point of sweating, even though the mornings were only 4 or 5C.) Finally ended up with an extrordinarily fantastic recall from him (amongst other skills), although his heel work was more challenging. Check in with HR and Haven - they will help you work out what and how to motivate him the best. This won't necessarily mean the "easiest" where you're concerned, and will probably require a good input of energy for you. A great way to get and/or keep fit, for sure!

With the hand signals, seeing as he was taught his commands with them, it is desireable to teach the dog independance from them as well. To do this give the dog the verbal command, wait a moment but if no compliance appears forthcoming inside that (very short) moment, give the hand signal. What you are doing here is building anticipation. This does not occur when the hand signal is given simultaneous to the verbal - in this latter scenario, the dog pairs the verbal AND hand signal as the cue to the action required. I think Haven might have already mentioned/explained this in an earlier post?

Don't despair. I would be extremely surprised if your dog has been "ruined". You will be able to work this one through, of that I'm positive.

ETA: Oonga .... me thinks you sell yourself short by saying you don't know anything about dog training. Don't be so modest.

Edited July 12, 2006 by Erny

[oonga]

Erny,

fair enough about the hearing, i just had to put that in because i come from a family where my grandma, uncle, mum and several other relatives are hearing impaired and i was 17 before i was diagnosed as having a hearing impairment, at school i always got the dreamer thing in my report etc.. although being a human i guess i compensate for it, not sure if dogs would do this LOL

as for being modest, i look forward to seeing you at rotty training one day so you can see i really know nothing about dog training!! LOL

thanks for the confidence boost though

cheers

oonga

[Erny]

Oonga .... you could well be right re the hearing, and I think it is always a worthwhile thing to check, even if to remove the possibility of doubt. Fairly easy to check, anyway, so might as well.

And when I do hit the RC at KCC, I will expect great things from you. I am more than sure you are capable.

[Herr Rottweiler]

Oonga is a role model member Erny. She is naturally inquisitive and love to learn about what needs to be done.

[Kavik]

With the hand signals, seeing as he was taught his commands with them, it is desireable to teach the dog independance from them as well. To do this give the dog the verbal command, wait a moment but if no compliance appears forthcoming inside that (very short) moment, give the hand signal. What you are doing here is building anticipation. This does not occur when the hand signal is given simultaneous to the verbal - in this latter scenario, the dog pairs the verbal AND hand signal as the cue to the action required.

This is how I taught Diesel He picked up the hand signal quickly, but the voice independently was more tricky. So I gave the drop command, then the hand signal after, and gradually weaned off the hand signal.

[wheres my rock]

oops and i thought things were tongue in cheek lol

[lab and poodle]

Mr Herr Rottweiller

I used to wonder what your school did as I passed it every Saturday on my way home from the groceries. Now I know so I wont have to pop in to check it out and sample a free lesson with my new dog or tell my friends that it could be an alternative to our local Obedience Club. For that, I thank you. I am very busy and you have saved me time.

[wheres my rock]

all schools wheter private or community have the odd poor instructor the different is that at a private school it is easy to remove them from employ whereas in a community club it can be hard While i think what the OP was told is rubbish it seems that the achool in question is doing their best to help and rectify the problem and sort things out whereas i know of many schools that would just say tough Id liek to think that forcing a drop to make it faster would not be the norm at any school but then i know that there are plenty of cmmunity schools that ould say to do the same

Ive been to most clubs at one time or another whether to join or observe and i must say none have impressed me all that much if one thing is done well something else is lacking At least in this situation someone is trying to do something to help