Re-establishing Focus

[ravensmyst00]

I own a bullmastiff who I also show.

Now I started training him from the day I got him home. He stood perfectly at his first show (which saw him win Opposite baby in show at the bullmastiff specialty last year). He had been taught sit and stay as well - all commands were taught with a combination of vocal and hand signals which saw him focus on me continually. All of that changed when I started taking him to obedience because I was told off by the trainers for using hand signals because in their eyes dogs need to learn vocal commands first then later on we move to hand signals. Upon stopping the use of the hand signals I not longer get focus from my dog when we go for walks and I no longer have a happy dog walking when we go out or gaiting with me in the ring. He is just flat.

He was so eager to please and now its as if he could care less. I can get him to focus on me when it is meal times as that is part of what he has to do before he can eat - but I cant get him to do it else where. I can only tug at his ear so many times at training before he just completely ignores me instead of looking at me.

How do I get him to start focusing on me again? How do I go about getting his enthusiasm back when he is with me. As he is all hyper and happy with my husband.

Could this also have to do with the fact that I am viewed as the Alpha in the family as my husband is the one who usually goes nuts with him and lets him get away with just about everything.

Anyway I can fix this?

All suggestions will be much appreciated.

[Herr Rottweiler]

It doesn't appear to me that the flatness from your dog is related to the fact that you no longer use hand signals. It more appears that this is an excuse in your diagnosis of why the problem has occured, however it is important when looking at the bigger picture that you do list all possible reasons, so you are doing the right thing there.

My suggestion is that you are possibly making obedience unenjoyable to your dog by putting too much pressure on him too soon, (kind of like what some parents do to kids in sports) which can lead to a resiliance and a dislike in what they are doing.

Find something that motivates your dog, something that he is obsessed by and incorporate that into the reward process when the dog gives you the type of behaviour you expect, that way he will enjoy what it is he's doing and relate it to a positive association.

I think finding yourself a coach for a few private lessons will improve your situation too.

[wheres my rock]

i cant see any problem with using hand signals but i do agree with HR is obedience creating too much pressure for him

[ravensmyst00]

It doesn't appear to me that the flatness from your dog is related to the fact that you no longer use hand signals. It more appears that this is an excuse in your diagnosis of why the problem has occured, however it is important when looking at the bigger picture that you do list all possible reasons, so you are doing the right thing there.

My suggestion is that you are possibly making obedience unenjoyable to your dog by putting too much pressure on him too soon, (kind of like what some parents do to kids in sports) which can lead to a resiliance and a dislike in what they are doing.

Find something that motivates your dog, something that he is obsessed by and incorporate that into the reward process when the dog gives you the type of behaviour you expect, that way he will enjoy what it is he's doing and relate it to a positive association.

I think finding yourself a coach for a few private lessons will improve your situation too.

He goes to ADT. After having a long discussion with a couple trainers there a few months back they agreed I should have stuck with the hand signals and never should have been told to stop. None of the trainers have yet come up with a solution on how to get him back up to how he was before I was told to stop. I have even stopped handling him during obedience in hopes that would change things but it hasnt. Granted there is a difference in his response to my husband who has to give him a command 3 times in order to get him to do anything where I only have to give a command once.

As for using my being told off for using hand signals as an excuse - that I can tell you I am not doing as he performed beautifully with hand signals. A week after I stopped using them with him he stopped focusing and he also ended up being severely corrected that week (something I was less than impressed about) by one of the trainers because he is slow on the Drop command.

I have had more one on one time with different trainers at ADT than most people and there is yet to be improvement with any of their suggestions.

[wheres my rock]

Maaybe ita time to try somene different where are you

[ravensmyst00]

Maaybe ita time to try somene different where are you

Am considering doing that but I think the damage may have already been done. Just need to find some way to try and reverse it if possible.

[Staranais]

Find something that motivates your dog, something that he is obsessed by and incorporate that into the reward process when the dog gives you the type of behaviour you expect, that way he will enjoy what it is he's doing and relate it to a positive association.

I agree with HR. How are you rewarding him? If the reward is motivational enough, then getting his focus will be much easier.

If he performs well at dinner time, have you tried taking his dinner along to training and feeding it as treats when he performs?

Or have you tried rewarding with a chase or tug toy?

[ravensmyst00]

Find something that motivates your dog, something that he is obsessed by and incorporate that into the reward process when the dog gives you the type of behaviour you expect, that way he will enjoy what it is he's doing and relate it to a positive association.

I agree with HR. How are you rewarding him? If the reward is motivational enough, then getting his focus will be much easier.

If he performs well at dinner time, have you tried taking his dinner along to training and feeding it as treats when he performs?

Or have you tried rewarding with a chase or tug toy?

There is only so much motivation one can do with a bullmastiff. My boy is extremely laid back with not a care in the world.

Dinner doesnt get him motivated. He focus's because he knows he has to do that in order to get his dinner and I really cant take his dinner into the show ring with me. Raw Rabbit with dry food wont do to well in my pocket.

I have tried using his favourite toys for training as well as using food and the moment he realises what I am doing with it he loses interest. I have tried jumping around and acting like a complete and total fool with no response. That is why I wonder if establishing me as the Alpha and removing the hand signals has messed things up.

I dont know what to do other than dropping my status as alpha and drop training for a while and just focus on playing with him. Then slowly reintroduce things.

[Herr Rottweiler]

Find something that motivates your dog, something that he is obsessed by and incorporate that into the reward process when the dog gives you the type of behaviour you expect, that way he will enjoy what it is he's doing and relate it to a positive association.

I agree with HR. How are you rewarding him? If the reward is motivational enough, then getting his focus will be much easier.

If he performs well at dinner time, have you tried taking his dinner along to training and feeding it as treats when he performs?

Or have you tried rewarding with a chase or tug toy?

There is only so much motivation one can do with a bullmastiff. My boy is extremely laid back with not a care in the world.

Dinner doesnt get him motivated. He focus's because he knows he has to do that in order to get his dinner and I really cant take his dinner into the show ring with me. Raw Rabbit with dry food wont do to well in my pocket.

I have tried using his favourite toys for training as well as using food and the moment he realises what I am doing with it he loses interest. I have tried jumping around and acting like a complete and total fool with no response. That is why I wonder if establishing me as the Alpha and removing the hand signals has messed things up.

I dont know what to do other than dropping my status as alpha and drop training for a while and just focus on playing with him. Then slowly reintroduce things.

Mastiff's by nature tend to be plodders. The older they get, the lazier they tend to be. Not in all cases but in many of the mastiff's I've worked with they don't get highly enthusiatic.

You shouldn't ever drop your Alpha status with your dog, that's never the solution to fixing anything. What you do need to do is capture and "Mark" the times when he is excited and happy, even if it's for a very short period of time. What i'm recommending is several things,

1. Ease up on him a bit and maybe relax yourself.

2. Make his feeding schedule part of training so he gets fed when he's working. If he's being flat and lacking enthusiasm, then he doesn't get all the food he wants. If he is motivated or he shows improvement, then he gets more of whatever he wants.

3. Ignore him unless he's ready to work and when he does work, show him that it is his behaviour that triggers positive responses and rewards from you.

I have trained dogs that have crawled on their belly when they have first been introduced to me and scared stiff of the world and I have still managed to find something to motivate and excite them enough to get the desired responses.

Another thing I need to know is how lomg you have been at this for now?

What centre are you training at?

[haven]

The only difference in giving your commands by hand signals or by voice is the difference YOU make in terms of delivery.

Having had the benefit of seeing the gorgeous Xander in action, I would say he lacks motivation because there is no need for him to show it. It seems to me that you are too free with giving him treats and praise and let him off far too lightly in terms of what you should expect from a dog at his level of training. He is capable of doing a fast recall, a straight sit, giving a decent amount of focus etc. Why does he not do these things and do them with enthusiasm? Because you accept a mediocre effort on his part and reward him for it. You need to start upping the ante, if he gives you less than exceptional effort, withold the reward and expect more! Set a standard for each of his skills and start rewarding him only when he exceeds (or at least clearly attempts to) the standard. He may be a dog that is naturally harder to motivate than some, but most dogs will lose interest when they know that they will get a reward no matter how well they do, or if they don't see the pattern behind how they achieve a reward. When Xander realises he can control the delivery of the reinforcer to some degree only by putting in that extra effort, he will.

Being an effective leader or alpha to your dog should not be detrimental to his motivation levels and performance in obedience, if anything it should improve it.

[ravensmyst00]

Find something that motivates your dog, something that he is obsessed by and incorporate that into the reward process when the dog gives you the type of behaviour you expect, that way he will enjoy what it is he's doing and relate it to a positive association.

I agree with HR. How are you rewarding him? If the reward is motivational enough, then getting his focus will be much easier.

If he performs well at dinner time, have you tried taking his dinner along to training and feeding it as treats when he performs?

Or have you tried rewarding with a chase or tug toy?

There is only so much motivation one can do with a bullmastiff. My boy is extremely laid back with not a care in the world.

Dinner doesnt get him motivated. He focus's because he knows he has to do that in order to get his dinner and I really cant take his dinner into the show ring with me. Raw Rabbit with dry food wont do to well in my pocket.

I have tried using his favourite toys for training as well as using food and the moment he realises what I am doing with it he loses interest. I have tried jumping around and acting like a complete and total fool with no response. That is why I wonder if establishing me as the Alpha and removing the hand signals has messed things up.

I dont know what to do other than dropping my status as alpha and drop training for a while and just focus on playing with him. Then slowly reintroduce things.

Mastiff's by nature tend to be plodders. The older they get, the lazier they tend to be. Not in all cases but in many of the mastiff's I've worked with they don't get highly enthusiatic.

You shouldn't ever drop your Alpha status with your dog, that's never the solution to fixing anything. What you do need to do is capture and "Mark" the times when he is excited and happy, even if it's for a very short period of time. What i'm recommending is several things,

1. Ease up on him a bit and maybe relax yourself.

2. Make his feeding schedule part of training so he gets fed when he's working. If he's being flat and lacking enthusiasm, then he doesn't get all the food he wants. If he is motivated or he shows improvement, then he gets more of whatever he wants.

3. Ignore him unless he's ready to work and when he does work, show him that it is his behaviour that triggers positive responses and rewards from you.

I have trained dogs that have crawled on their belly when they have first been introduced to me and scared stiff of the world and I have still managed to find something to motivate and excite them enough to get the desired responses.

Another thing I need to know is how lomg you have been at this for now?

What centre are you training at?

Doncaster east? I think. Boronia Reserve I think it is - Thursday nights.

[ravensmyst00]

The only difference in giving your commands by hand signals or by voice is the difference YOU make in terms of delivery.

Having had the benefit of seeing the gorgeous Xander in action, I would say he lacks motivation because there is no need for him to show it. It seems to me that you are too free with giving him treats and praise and let him off far too lightly in terms of what you should expect from a dog at his level of training. He is capable of doing a fast recall, a straight sit, giving a decent amount of focus etc. Why does he not do these things and do them with enthusiasm? Because you accept a mediocre effort on his part and reward him for it. You need to start upping the ante, if he gives you less than exceptional effort, withold the reward and expect more! Set a standard for each of his skills and start rewarding him only when he exceeds (or at least clearly attempts to) the standard. He may be a dog that is naturally harder to motivate than some, but most dogs will lose interest when they know that they will get a reward no matter how well they do, or if they don't see the pattern behind how they achieve a reward. When Xander realises he can control the delivery of the reinforcer to some degree only by putting in that extra effort, he will.

Being an effective leader or alpha to your dog should not be detrimental to his motivation levels and performance in obedience, if anything it should improve it.

Okay which ADT trainer is this?????

[ravensmyst00]

The only difference in giving your commands by hand signals or by voice is the difference YOU make in terms of delivery.

Having had the benefit of seeing the gorgeous Xander in action, I would say he lacks motivation because there is no need for him to show it. It seems to me that you are too free with giving him treats and praise and let him off far too lightly in terms of what you should expect from a dog at his level of training. He is capable of doing a fast recall, a straight sit, giving a decent amount of focus etc. Why does he not do these things and do them with enthusiasm? Because you accept a mediocre effort on his part and reward him for it. You need to start upping the ante, if he gives you less than exceptional effort, withold the reward and expect more! Set a standard for each of his skills and start rewarding him only when he exceeds (or at least clearly attempts to) the standard. He may be a dog that is naturally harder to motivate than some, but most dogs will lose interest when they know that they will get a reward no matter how well they do, or if they don't see the pattern behind how they achieve a reward. When Xander realises he can control the delivery of the reinforcer to some degree only by putting in that extra effort, he will.

Being an effective leader or alpha to your dog should not be detrimental to his motivation levels and performance in obedience, if anything it should improve it.

Okay which ADT trainer is this????? LOL!

[Lablover]

Ravensmyst00,

For interest, how is at dog shows? Animated/bored/distracted etc? Do you crate/isolate him before entering a show ring.

[Rom]

he also ended up being severely corrected that week (something I was less than impressed about) by one of the trainers because he is slow on the Drop command.

After my experience at obedience clubs I would never ever allow an instructor to handle my dog without them first telling me exactlywhat they intended to do. Many of them seem to dish out harsh corrections without assessing the dog or understanding the effect that a harsh correction would have on them. Not that I'm saying that the harsh correction was the wrong thing to do in this instance or that your dog was the type to be adversely affected by the correction....just that too many trainers IMO have the attitude that one method suits all and this is definitely not always the case! So consider if this maybe the reason for your dog losing its enthusiasm for work.

For eg, have seen a trainer take a dog from an owner that had lagging on lead problems. Trainer didn't assess the dog b4 giving harsh corrections in an attempt to improve the heeling position. Turns out dog has a very nervous disposition and started nipping at the trainer during stand for exam immediately after the trainer giving these corrections.

ETA: If the dog was already performing well with hand signals, then why try to fix what isn't broken?

Edited July 10, 2006 by Rom

[wheres my rock]

he also ended up being severely corrected that week (something I was less than impressed about) by one of the trainers because he is slow on the Drop command.

yup and thast gonna speed him up lol makes you wonder

Edited July 10, 2006 by caninecoach

[ravensmyst00]

Ravensmyst00,

For interest, how is at dog shows? Animated/bored/distracted etc? Do you crate/isolate him before entering a show ring.

Depends on the show venue. If its outdoors he is animated and keen to please - indoors is a completely different story. One day he will be animated then next its a case of "cant be bothered."

[lab and poodle]

"I was told off by the trainers for using hand signals because in their eyes dogs need to learn vocal commands first then later on we move to hand signals. "

This is so totally stupid, and flies in the face of how dogs operate, i.e great body language poor oral language. I always train with voice and signal. If anything, I fade the voice. I almost bet there experience and ability is poor, and the last time they actually read and observed anything was when they were on their mummy's knee.

If they are commercial sue them. As for the drop, the best approach to get these oafs to understand what they are doing is to crack a decent sized crow(pinch) bar over their heads to force a drop on them. You must be really careful doing this though as there is a fair chance that the pinch bar may bend and have no effect on them. if this is so, run.

Besides this, the slower the dog, the more care you must take, the more skilful and consistent you must be as a trainer. Look up the APDT, or somewhere where people treat dogs with kindness and compassion and generally put the ironmongery and e gadgets in the bin where they belong. For heavens sake do a fin (shark) check. where are you credentials? Referees? Philospophy? I think dog training is as bad as real estate.

Give your dog a hug for me. My OH has always wanted a Mastiff of some kind.

[wheres my rock]

dont bet that just because soemone is a member of apdt or any other group that it makes them more positive a trianer there a few listed there that are quite aversive

[Kavik]

When I had a lapse in interest with Diesel in obedience, I took a break from classes and worked on motivation. Maybe a break would benefit you too. Find something your dog really enjoys and has fun with, whether it is a toy of some sort, or food or a game or access to something. Play games! With me, I think I was putting too much pressure on Diesel, and I wasn't making it fun enough. And it was hard to keep a lot of focus for long bouts of heeling.

Diesel is food motivated, so what has worked is spitting food from my mouth and some clicker training for attention. Even now we go in and out of class, only short bursts so that his motivation remains high.