Steve K9Pro Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 (edited) M: ooks like Ill have to cut down the trees (not only mine but the neighbours and on the golf course next door) and concrete the grass.... or quit work or work from home or be sick and be home. Endless possibilities K9: One thing I always say Myszka, is that this isnt for everyone... Some think the work is too physical, others dont have a dog with enough drive, others dont want to invest the time or commitment, the possibilities are endless. Simply train your dog in another method. There are plenty of them, I have plenty of them... No body says you have to do all of this.... M: he runs with other dog? gaining a positive value for the other dog?BP: Yes he does. As I said, we're new to this and this may be a bad thing. I'm not trying to win obedience titles though, just have companions who will walk nicely on a lead. K9: remember that the level of training you trying to reach is your own end goal, everyone has different goals, so different levels are required... Im wondering if dogs that are isolated in a pen and are only taken out for short burst of training session, potentially not enough times a day, with nothing to do in the pen will develop some undesireable behaviours such as licking the paws, chasing the tail chronic barking etc. K9: this can happen with dogs left in back yards, it is a fall out from lack of stimulation.... This happens to high drive dogs that dont get enough drive stimulation... I see a lot of people with high drive dogs that destroy their homes, dig holes, bark etc etc as the people havent got the time to spend with a highly dependant dog.. Simply means they have the wrong breed... My drive training programs mimimize these problems, often eliminate them... ************** A: Firstly: this can only be done with a puppy, right? K9: no, a dog that hasnt already had an assigned value of things, so a dog that has been kenelled all its life or kept at home could be neutralised, but pups are best... It sounds like once your dog already has assigned a positive value to things, then it is too late for neutralisation, K9: yes thats correct, it will take aversives to reverse this... what is the "point" of neutralisation? K9: to have a dog that is not over stimulated by everything but the handler, to minimise the risks associated with generic socialisation programs... So that you dont teach your dog to want to play with other dogs & then have to correct him for doing just that. From what I can gather, the point of this is so that the dog will only assign positive value to things that the trainer can control - food, toys, the trainer himself - so that the dog only seeks drive satisfaction from things that the owner can manipulate. This presumably makes training easier, since you don't have to teach the dog to ignore distractions, since he is just not attracted to them. Whereas a "socialised" dog has assigned positive value to things, so he has to be taught to ignore distractions. Am I sort of on the right track? K9: yes this is correct.. Thirdly: how can you tell when a dog has reached the "neutralisation mark" for various things. Do you test the pup somehow, then socialise it a little more if it is still "under the mark", then test again? K9: it takes some experience but, when the pup pays no attention to the neutralised item.. Lastly: once a pup has been "neutralised", do you need to be careful the pup's whole life that the dog doesn't get a chance to assign a positive value to things? Or is there a critical period where a pup is neutralised, and then the dog will remain "neutralised" indefinately no matter what positive experiences the dog has later in life? (Hope that question made sense?) K9: once the pup gets to approx 14 months plus, temperament changes occur, then its a life time thing... *************************** K9: dogs need certain things, they need to have their primary & secondary drives full filled, & they dont look for other things... They dont get bored, or stressed... People who have attended my workshops both here & Victoria, or those who know my dogs will have seen dogs that have been neutralised. The SARDOGS & Lablovers dogs & mine have zero interest in other dogs, a couple of examples.. EG1: K9 Force & SARDA workshop in NSW, Julie deployed River in the vacant paddock next door to mine, she & her River went about doing their thing whilst I & workshop attendees watched from my paddock with a panoramic view, The paddock on the other side had barking dogs, 3 of them running up & down the fence barking at River, less than 3 metres away... Neither Julie or River deviated from their job... I mentioned to Julie when she came back about the dogs barking, she had the same view as River, she said "what dogs".... See the pic, there are dogs barking just behind them, though they cant be seen.... EG2: Lablover was kind enough to do a Retrieving demo or two for me at my last Victorian workshops, Stamp came out of the vehicle & I think I can say that his focus in drive was amazing, there were other dogs around, barking, his kennel mates barking in the car, never once did he even notice... As Gillian said, she went to pat him & he didnt give a rats... When its game on, its game on for him, I have sat in Julies house & had Stamp on my lap, a very affectionate boy he is, but when its game on, there is nothing else for him but Julie & her ball.. & if your reading Julie, I want a photo for my comp! Edited July 7, 2006 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 M: Absolutly!!! I ahve repeatedly tried to find people for my older dog and repeatedly failed, well lets see how Saturday dobie meet goes..Perhaps finding people with dog isnt a problem but I found finding people that have NEUTRALISED dogs basically impossible. I must be looking in the wrong spots I think. K9: all yo need is somone with an obedient dog that will do a sit stay, surely you can find one.,.. *************************** What I would enjoy would be if Steve took a tour of NZ sometimes... how about it, K9force? K9: set it up Im there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 (edited) So, with an older dog that has a negative value for something, you can give them positive experiences to "neutralise" them. Sort of like desensitising a fearful dog to the presence of other dogs.But if an older dog has already assigned a positive value to something, you can't neutralise that? Is that sort of right? Yep. Because the dog will always know there's a positive he can get elsewhere and he'll seek that in circumstances that suit him. So while you are neutralising your dog, you're working your dog around other dogs who ignore him. And the "test" of whether you have achieved neutralisation is whether your dog seeks interaction with these other dogs or not. If he doesn't ever seek drive satisfaction from the other dog, he is neutralised to them. Is that kind of right? Yep again. And of course, you need to remain in control so that if the dog does seek drive satisfaction elsewhere, you can prevent that occurring (thus avoiding the dog achieving positive value). Note that "neutralised" doesn't mean your dog doesn't like or won't meet/greet with other dogs, but it does mean they're not fussed one way or the other and that YOU remain their 'be all and end all'. So when a dog is neutralised, then theoretically there is no opportunity for the dog to get "un-neutralised", since it is not seeking drive satisfaction anywhere else. Right? That's the theory, as I understand it. But... although we all try to control our dogs interactions, unpredicted things sometimes happen in life (at least for me!) If the dog one day did happen to get drive satisfaction from somewhere else as an adult, would that "un-neutralise" him? Yes, it would. But I think K9's answer would be that drive training would have been incomplete. For example, a relative of mine once played with my dog with a squeaky toy without consulting me. I learned from that, and now lock my dog up while I'm not directly supervising him. But if my dog was neutralised, would the damage have already been done, just because on that one occassion he got a positive experience from something/someone else? If drive training had been complete here, your dog would have learnt that ONLY YOU provide drive satisfaction. With dogs who have learnt this, it doesn't matter who picks up his drive item/toy, he's not interested in it UNLESS YOU are the one controlling it. Sorry, perhaps I'm being very dense here. Not dense ... good questions. I've been to two of Steve's seminars and I'm still learning to understand and, moreover, explain the theory . It's good practice to get it out here in my own words. What I would enjoy would be if Steve took a tour of NZ sometimes... how about it, K9force? I'm sure he would, if you can get a group arranged. Edited July 7, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Thanks for your answers, K9force and Erny - that's a lot to think about! I'm sure he would, if you can get a group arranged. You mean find other dog people around here who would be happy attending a session taught by a trainer who uses e-collars and prong collars? Believe me, if I knew people like that, I'd already be training with them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 A: You mean find other dog people around here who would be happy attending a session taught by a trainer who uses e-collars and prong collars? K9: you get bthe people & I will take care of the second part, keep in mind that only a small part of my training uses these tools... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 K9: you get the people & I will take care of the second part, keep in mind that only a small part of my training uses these tools... Just out of interest... how many people? And how much would you charge them each? (PM me if you'd prefer!) And, have you been to NZ before? I'm just wondering if you have any past clients here who might like to attend another K9force seminar, if one were to happen in NZ at some point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Just to add, it sounds like my dogs are robotic (those who have seen my dogs hopefully do not agree). I want to add they are pains in the bum sometimes. For instance they follow me like shadows, Stamp has ruined a couch (my fault), Peppa has shredded the lining off my Troup Carriers roof (my fault), are allowed on the lounge and in our beds. They have an on and off switch. As I gaze downwards, all are fast asleep. Such angels!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 I have just had a fence and gate that divides my yard installed. Hence the dogs will both be outside but separate while Im at work. Call it that she will be in a huge pen with grass and trees in it. They will be able to see each other and smell each other through the fence, is that a problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 Hi again Erny, Myzska & K9force Can I ask one more question, please? I understand that neutralisation means that a dog will only seek drive satisfaction from its handler, and is neutral to other distractions. My question is, does that mean that the dog must not assign a positive value to its human and canine family? For example, if I were to introduce another pup into my household, could it assign a positive value to my other dog and my immediate family - but remain neutral to other dogs and people? Or would I have to be the "be all and end all" for this dog, and teach it to be neutral towards my family or other dog? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 I have just had a fence and gate that divides my yard installed. Hence the dogs will both be outside but separate while Im at work. Call it that she will be in a huge pen with grass and trees in it. They will be able to see each other and smell each other through the fence, is that a problem? Much better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 Hi again Erny, Myzska & K9force Can I ask one more question, please? I understand that neutralisation means that a dog will only seek drive satisfaction from its handler, and is neutral to other distractions. My question is, does that mean that the dog must not assign a positive value to its human and canine family? For example, if I were to introduce another pup into my household, could it assign a positive value to my other dog and my immediate family - but remain neutral to other dogs and people? Or would I have to be the "be all and end all" for this dog, and teach it to be neutral towards my family or other dog? Thanks. I am not Erny, Myzska or K9 force, so I will not answer. Bbbbbbbbbbbbuuuuuuuut, all the same, I have kept multiple pups from litters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 Sorry Lablover - your answer is appreciated too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 (edited) Much better Just as a clarification - Ive never left them together unattended. Rex was inside the house when I went to work, while Divani was outside. So in effect they will be closer to each other now. Hi again Erny, Myzska & K9force Hello Amhailte. Im flattered to be included in the same sentence as Erny and K9 but honestly I DO NOT belong in the category of people that could be answering serious questions such as this one. I can only tell you from the 2 week observation that my new dog has a positive value for my family and often visiting friends as well as my dog, and has no value for strange dogs or strange people, she is actually quite aloof with strangers. So far I have let her go towards other dogs (that I know very well and only after setting up the scenario with the other owners) and say hello - that is meet for the 3 second interaction, than she was to go with me. I have noticed that she isnt really interested in going towards them as much any more. I think if given the oportunity she of course would, but she gets no opportunities Edited July 9, 2006 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noisymina Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 Gee - This is all beyond my experience/ambitions - but has been so helpful just with some of the day to day stuff with Kaisie - just getting her to focus on me has been a huge advantage. So impressive. Thanks. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 (edited) I understand that neutralisation means that a dog will only seek drive satisfaction from its handler, and is neutral to other distractions. My question is, does that mean that the dog must not assign a positive value to its human and canine family?For example, if I were to introduce another pup into my household, could it assign a positive value to my other dog and my immediate family - but remain neutral to other dogs and people? Or would I have to be the "be all and end all" for this dog, and teach it to be neutral towards my family or other dog? Thanks. Hi Amhailte. First, I am compelled to explain that I have not been in a position to take a dog through the neutralisation process in a multi-dog household or for that matter, at all. Any neutralisation my dog has achieved has been due to her initial "negative" values to certain things and I doubt that I would have got her much past the "zero" mark, if at all, even with more effort. However, I think I correctly recall K9's answer to another such question as yours. If the original dog is neutralised, then I wouldn't expect it to be as big a problem, as the original dog wouldn't be fussed about the new dog. Although interaction is possible especially when the dogs are left alone during the day. This shouldn't affect the neutralised dog, but I expect it would impact on the neutralisation training of the new dog. But certainly, if the original dog is NOT neutralised then the two dogs would be best to NOT be housed to freely interact together until neutralisation of the new dog is completed (around 14 months of age, as K9 suggested). Neutralisation is something that you take as far or as little as what suits your needs. Where K9 for his purposes and preference might neutralise to the "zero" mark on the scale I 'drew' in an earlier response, some others might socialise to the "5" mark or beyond. It depends on what your end expectations and goals are. I THINK K9's dogs are neutralised to EVERYONE (family included) except for himself. Others may not want it so, so they don't follow the program to a "T". But of course, that's a compromise on the program and you might not end up achieving the absolute preciseness of what would otherwise be possible. It's a case of "can't have your cake and eat it too". If you get what I mean. Like Myszka, I too am flattered to be included along side K9's name and I am enjoying my attempts to explain and answer in writing. It is one thing to understand a concept (to a reasonable degree, at least). Another to be able to answer the questions of others and in this I'm not entirely sure I've done an acceptable job. So I standby, once more, for K9's input and hope that I am not perceived as having over-trodden his domain. Edited July 9, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 OK I have a question.... I've just realised that I'm breaking a few of the rules of starting in drive. I.e still gets an off-lead run (weight issue!), still doing agility/obedience class, still has toys in the yard (plus she steals my firewood if you can call that a "toy"). She's not allowed to play with other dogs at classes or on her daily run. I'm already seeing some good results with the small amount that I've done & learnt i.e comes when called regardless, "checks in" regularly while she's off running, can drop her lead in agility and have her come back each time, drop her lead in obedience with stays and not have her distracted by other dogs. If she does happen to break its towards me only, not the other dogs in class. I've actually done very little formal drive with her, just a small amount of teasing with the ball, but once we get some more daylight hours, will start working on it more Now if I take the ball with me on her run she won't go off and run because she wants the ball Handy distraction though if there's birds or other dogs I've found :D Can you still get good results even though you don't follow the rules to the letter.... Obviously you wouldn't get absolutely excellent results. Dependant on the rules you do break and the dog I'd imagine? It's hard to explain but I'm not so sure about things like her not having toys etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 Do you mind me attempting at least a part answer? I'd be really pleased if K9 would jump in and confirm that I'm on the right track too. "Neutralisation" is a program complimentary to "drive training". With drive training, you are likely to achieve a very high degree of reliability. With drive training AND the neutralisation, I'd suggest the degree of reliability would be 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 (edited) But certainly, if the original dog is NOT neutralised then the two dogs would be best to NOT be housed to freely interact together until neutralisation of the new dog is completed (around 14 months of age, as K9 suggested). That's a bit of a catch 22 then, for those of us with a dog aggressive (non neutralised!) dog who are intending to add a new pup to the family at some point, right? We would ideally want to initially accustom the old dog to the presence of the new pup while it is still young and has "puppy license". But if we intend to attempt to neutralise, we will not want to let the pup associate with the old dog? Those seem like two conflicting goals. Neutralisation is something that you take as far or as little as what suits your needs. Where K9 for his purposes and preference might neutralise to the "zero" mark on the scale I 'drew' in an earlier response, some others might socialise to the "5" mark or beyond. It depends on what your end expectations and goals are. So total neutralisation is desirable for a working dog, but might not actually be desirable for a pet dog, who is expected to be affectionate to his owners family and friends? (In my own case, my "non-doggy" mother has become quite attatched to my present dog, and I think it would probably break her heart if she wasn't allowed to cuddle and fuss over the next puppy!). Like Myszka, I too am flattered to be included along side K9's name and I am enjoying my attempts to explain and answer in writing. Thanks, Erny and Myszka - I'm really enjoying reading your answers! It is a fascinating subject, and the more I learn about it the more questions I have about it. And on that subject... How about SAR dogs? I was at a SAR course in the weekend, and ended up talking to a civilian dog handler. She said that the SAR dogs were intensively socialised when young so that they loved finding strange people. She said that they used food and drive rewards as well, but also wanted to use pups that were really friendly and confident with people, and who found associating with strangers a positive experience. Is that a case where the pup would be socialised to a positive value with strangers, instead of neutralised to zero? Thanks again! Edited July 9, 2006 by Amhailte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 That's a bit of a catch 22 then, for those of use with a dog aggressive (non neutralised!) dog who are intending to add a new pup to the family at some point, right? We would want to accustom the old dog to the presence of the new pup while it is still young and has "puppy license". But if we intend to attempt to neutralise, we will not want to let the pup associate with the old dog? Those seem like two conflicting goals. I need to get ready to go to training, but I will have a go at answering to this question. :D According to K9, you socialise your pup right up until 14 weeks of age (I would have thought 16 weeks, but that's something I need to speak to Steve about - perhaps it is a 'variable' factor to take into account). Assuming you get your pup at 7 or 8 weeks, that's at least 1.5 months where you do all your socialisation - as much as possible. It is after that you cease the opportunity for the pup to receive value from other distractions such as other dogs. I'm not sure I'd want to socialise my pup with a dog aggressive dog, given the risk involved of a bad experience for the pup inside its critical learning period. So total neutralisation might not actually be desirable for a pet dog, who is expected to be affectionate to his owners family and friends (in my own case, my mother has gotten used to my present dog, and I think it would probably break her heart if she wasn't allowed to cuddle and fuss over the next puppy!). Perhaps not. The extent to which you neutralisation, if at all, depends on what you want. E: Like Myszka, I too am flattered to be included along side K9's name and I am enjoying my attempts to explain and answer in writing. A: Thanks, Erny and Myszka - I'm really enjoying reading your answers! Thanks A :D. However, I'd still want readers to quantify with K9 any of the answers I've given in case I'm off the mark. A: It is a fascinating subject, and the more I learn about it the more questions I have about it. It is that. A: And on that subject...How about SAR dogs? I was at a SAR course in the weekend, and ended up talking to a civilian dog handler. She said that the SAR dogs were intensively socialised when young so that finding a person would be desirable for them. She said that they used food and drive rewards as well, but also wanted to use pups that were really friendly and confident with people. Is that a case where the pup would be socialised to a positive value with strangers, instead of neutralised to zero? Run out of time to ponder that question and answer sufficiently. But I will say that the SARDA seminar I went to recently explained that, in the course of training, the "reward" (drive satisfaction) was always given by the handler, even though the dogs were taught to recognise that the reward would be found on the "victim's" body. So the dogs knew where the source of reward was (which motivates the dog to find the victim) but also know that without the handler, they would not receive the reward as the handler is the one in control of it (which motivates the dog to get the handler to come to the victim and ensures the dog will continue to return to the handler to guide them to him/her). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 (edited) I'm not sure I'd want to socialise my pup with a dog aggressive dog, given the risk involved of a bad experience for the pup inside its critical learning period. Sorry, haven't read all of your answer yet, but just wanted to clarify - I am specifically talking about my own dog, who is selectively rank aggressive with particular adult dogs, but has always been a wussy pushover with young puppies. Not talking about DA dogs in general! Just to put your mind at rest. Have fun training! Edited July 10, 2006 by Amhailte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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