MonElite Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Mine is by herself in the backyard, no toys apart from what she manages to find there - sticks, leaves, plants stones. And Im sure she finds stuff for herself to entertain herself in the 10 hours Im away. To give you an idea this is my yard - it looks a LOT bigger in the photo than it actually is Looks like Ill have to cut down the trees (not only mine but the neighbours and on the golf course next door) and concrete the grass.... or quit work or work from home or be sick and be home. Endless possibilities ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Hey, your garden is nice. Mine is OK because I crate or pen youngsters. Otherwise been there, done that, trying to keep a garden with dogs amusing/satisfying themselves. I love crates, and I love pens. So do my dogs. I value them highly so want to keep them as safe as possible (and red red ready to work). It amazed me when I gave up work, how much they actually do sleep. It used to bug me big time, when people would come retriever training, with tired unmotivated dogs. I found, nearly all had older dogs, which the youngsters played with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillian Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 how did you manage to keep your lawn myszka!?!?!?!! Harleys big paws have killed every bit of grass that formed part of our lawn Erny - sorry was off reading the neutralisation thread We can discuss this further, if you like, when I see you. I'm sure Steve would approve. Sounds good - was just wondering thats all - theres a good few things we'll need to neutralise with my big boofa!!! I'm all excited about meeting up now. We've wanted to take Harley to obedience but we knew we'd get kicked out within the first 5 minutes ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Hey, your garden is nice. ;) that was taken about 3 years ago - right now I have patches of grass but mainly a mud paddock. majority of the yard has not grown grass for years. My dogs are together only when Im at home and than not really all the time together as I walk Rex by himselft, plus he doesnt really want to play with her and just watches the world from the sofa. She of course "annoys" him or me or my OH. They might play as in a dog play maaaaybe 10 minutes a day and I try to limit this as much as I can. And no doubt she has a positive value for him already. We all go to the backyard for the dog to toilet, he looks out for the possums, she sniffs the ground, jumps around herself or with me. The other 23.5 hours he amuses himself in the backyard chasing leaves and birds and stuff. He also runs around (I have two dogs). he runs with other dog? gaining a positive value for the other dog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 (edited) how did you manage to keep your lawn myszka!?!?!?!! Happy with my lawn now? ;) thats 18 months ago, now its a lot worse.... Edited July 6, 2006 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Gillian, I had to read the neuralisation thread more than once. Regarding obedience, I rejoined a club last Saturday, the dogs went really well. But..................the trainer suggested play time. I refused especially with Stamp, as the ball was one thing, that he values very highly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 (edited) he runs with other dog? gaining a positive value for the other dog? Yes he does. As I said, we're new to this and this may be a bad thing. I'm not trying to win obedience titles though, just have companions who will walk nicely on a lead. Both dogs prefer to play with me than with each other though so I don't think it's a problem.. Edited July 6, 2006 by BellasPerson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillian Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Harleys got a value of 10 on every dog he sees. In his mind all dogs are there for him to play with (even the ones that are growling at him) - I dont think he would have let any other dog stay focussed at obedience. the ball was one thing, that he values very highly I can imagine LL - at steves workshop I tried patting Yank and he couldnt give a rat $%% about who was where - all he was doing waas watching that ball ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Im off to do some drive buiding and to asses the garden damage guys wish me luck ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 It's not your garden that gets damaged, its your hands, arms, legs, trunk, head and feet Good luck ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 he runs with other dog? gaining a positive value for the other dog? Yes he does. As I said, we're new to this and this may be a bad thing. I'm not trying to win obedience titles though, just have companions who will walk nicely on a lead. Both dogs prefer to play with me than with each other though so I don't think it's a problem.. Sounds OK. Good on you. The thing is, we have to realise, say we train for an hour a day, what are the dogs "learning" in the other 23 hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 I am fortunate to work from home 90% of the time so I'm usually here to supervise . I love working from home ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 sorry had to ask one more q. before I left ;) Im wondering if dogs that are isolated in a pen and are only taken out for short burst of training session, potentially not enough times a day, with nothing to do in the pen will develop some undesireable behaviours such as licking the paws, chasing the tail chronic barking etc. What are the experts opinions/experiences on that? Looking forward to reading the replies tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Im wondering if dogs that are isolated in a pen and are only taken out for short burst of training session, potentially not enough times a day, with nothing to do in the pen will develop some undesireable behaviours such as licking the paws, chasing the tail chronic barking etc. i tend to find most high drive dogs continually walk around in circles whilst in there pen if they dont gain enough mental stimulation / excersize, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefe's owners Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Myszka 23 1/2 spare hours on a dog's day? I don't think so. 30 min TID 15x2 min for meals 15x2 min for aftermeals relief activities That leaves 22 1/2 hours While you are sleeping, say 7 hours, your dogs are likely to be sleeping. That leaves 15 1/2 hours The dog wants to be with you... so Walking around the house following you, sitting next to you, etc, easily another 6 hours. That leaves only 10 1/2 hours. Note that you are away from home 10 hours... Now, of those 10 hours you are away, your dog is more likely to be sleeping 8 hours... so that leaves 2 1/2 hours left on the dog awake on his/her own on a crate. Is it really that much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Are you an accountant or an auditor Jefe's owner... Great maths I like that. 2.5 hours alone all day sounds right to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 You can take a dog from negative value to neutralised value by way of socialisation. But, once the dog perceives value beyond the "0" point, you can't go back. Where there are negative values, IMO, it is better to work forwards, even if it means gaining some positive value. In my dog's case, she began at negative value and has reached "neutralised" ..... in some things and in some cases. Occasionally, she's a tad under the "neutralisation" and occassionally, with some things, she's a tad over the "neutralisation" mark.We can discuss this further, if you like, when I see you. I'm sure Steve would approve. I have a couple of questions to ask, Erny, if you have the time & you don't mind. Firstly: this can only be done with a puppy, right? It sounds like once your dog already has assigned a positive value to things, then it is too late for neutralisation, so this wouldn't work with an adult dog. Secondly: what is the "point" of neutralisation? From what I can gather, the point of this is so that the dog will only assign positive value to things that the trainer can control - food, toys, the trainer himself - so that the dog only seeks drive satisfaction from things that the owner can manipulate. This presumably makes training easier, since you don't have to teach the dog to ignore distractions, since he is just not attracted to them. Whereas a "socialised" dog has assigned positive value to things, so he has to be taught to ignore distractions. Am I sort of on the right track? Thirdly: how can you tell when a dog has reached the "neutralisation mark" for various things. Do you test the pup somehow, then socialise it a little more if it is still "under the mark", then test again? Lastly: once a pup has been "neutralised", do you need to be careful the pup's whole life that the dog doesn't get a chance to assign a positive value to things? Or is there a critical period where a pup is neutralised, and then the dog will remain "neutralised" indefinately no matter what positive experiences the dog has later in life? (Hope that question made sense?) Thanks heaps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 (edited) I have a couple of questions to ask, Erny, if you have the time & you don't mind. Hi Amhailte! Good to see you here! I'll do my best to answer your queries in my own fashion, although "neutralisation" is really K9 Force's baby and I'd expect his answers may be shorter and more to the point. Firstly: this can only be done with a puppy, right? It sounds like once your dog already has assigned a positive value to things, then it is too late for neutralisation, so this wouldn't work with an adult dog. It is most ideal to begin with a pup and yes, once your dog "has assigned a positive value to things" then neutralisation doesn't really occur. Having said that, neutralisation is possible with an older dog (such as mine, "Kal") who had a negative value to other people and to other dogs. With desensitisation (to remove the fear aspect) I believe that for the most part, she has "neutralised" to these. Eg. She doesn't mind meeting other dogs in the park and she doesn't mind meeting other people, but she really can't be bothered with their company/interaction beyond that, and wouldn't be fussed if she didn't meet them at all. (I hasten to add that she's not perfect in these domains all of the time .... sometimes there is still the faintest negative value attached to them, but that's Kal's story and is not the place for it here.) Kal would much prefer my company and my interaction. Secondly: what is the "point" of neutralisation? From what I can gather, the point of this is so that the dog will only assign positive value to things that the trainer can control - food, toys, the trainer himself - so that the dog only seeks drive satisfaction from things that the owner can manipulate. This presumably makes training easier, since you don't have to teach the dog to ignore distractions, since he is just not attracted to them. Whereas a "socialised" dog has assigned positive value to things, so he has to be taught to ignore distractions. Am I sort of on the right track? I would suggest you're very much on the right track. Thirdly: how can you tell when a dog has reached the "neutralisation mark" for various things. Do you test the pup somehow, then socialise it a little more if it is still "under the mark", then test again? Again - Steve (K9 Force) would probably have a better (different?) answer to this. It's not about taking the dog out and letting it go to see if neutralisation has occurred. It's all about training in increments and about controlling the situation. If you don't, then in those "testing" periods, your dog could achieve positive value and you'd be behind the eight ball getting it back. So you train your dog and then proof your dog in a controlled environment and with other dogs (if "other dogs" is the object) who equally don't see your dog as "value". You work up to your mark and know that your dog has achieved it, rather than testing and finding your dog is under the mark. Have I answered in a fashion that can be understood? I'm not sure I have? I'd say that this would be the most difficult aspect of the dog's training, from the point of view that it's pretty hard for many of us to find a dog and dog handler who can and is available to work with for the purposes of training in this phase. ETA: ... then socialise it a little more if it is still "under the mark", then test again? I'm interpretting your "under the mark" to suggest that we're talking about a dog who HAS negative issues with a stimulus and has perceived no postive value from its reactions to it (ie no enjoyment of chase etc.). IMO, desensitisation/socialisation continues until the dog shows no negativity (and I use drive training to establish this wherever possible). Personally, with dogs who have issues, I'm not to concerned about reaching "neutralisation" .... my goal is for the dog to be positive and confident in the presence of the "aversive stimuli" (in other words, for the aversive stimuli to neutralise ... not be "aversive" any more). Have I understood where you're coming from for this question and my answer? Lastly: once a pup has been "neutralised", do you need to be careful the pup's whole life that the dog doesn't get a chance to assign a positive value to things? Or is there a critical period where a pup is neutralised, and then the dog will remain "neutralised" indefinately no matter what positive experiences the dog has later in life? (Hope that question made sense?) When training and proofing are completed, your dog habitually looks to you for drive satisfaction - and knows that YOU are the only one who can provide it. Consequently, it doesn't look for satisfaction elsewhere. I will add that I have not personally trained a dog to this point (my dog is unsuitable and too unwell for this purpose) but I answer on the basis that this is my understanding of the concept of drive training and neutralisation. What I would enjoy is if Steve would visit here and correct me where I might be wrong, as there's always room for that to occur. Edited July 7, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 (edited) Jefe's owners - that is fantastic, thank you I guess this is the bit where I have my problems/questions? Problems is not the right word I actually enjoy it. The dog wants to be with you... so Walking around the house following you, sitting next to you, etc, easily another 6 hours. Yeah my dog wants to be with me, however she doesnt walk around and sit next to me, She runs around like a lunatic stealing and chewing things, jumping up, barking at Rex, hangs of my clothes while I walk around. OK it isnt for the 6 hours you calculated but lets say for the 3-4. hence my question is do I crate her than? As she is getting satisfaction from activities that are not desired. i tend to find most high drive dogs continually walk around in circles whilst in there pen if they dont gain enough mental stimulation / excersize, isnt that a bad thing in a long run. I am not talking about my dog as Im kind of in an oposite situation, just curious. I'd say that this would be the most difficult aspect of the dog's training, from the point of view that it's pretty hard for many of us to find a dog and dog handler who can and is available to work with for the purposes of training in this phase. Absolutly!!! I ahve repeatedly tried to find people for my older dog and repeatedly failed, well lets see how Saturday dobie meet goes.. Perhaps finding people with dog isnt a problem but I found finding people that have NEUTRALISED dogs basically impossible. I must be looking in the wrong spots I think. Edited July 7, 2006 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Thanks heaps Erny! You're an education. It is most ideal to begin with a pup and yes, once your dog "has assigned a positive value to things" then neutralisation doesn't really occur. Having said that, neutralisation is possible with an older dog (such as mine, "Kal") who had a negative value to other people and to other dogs. So, with an older dog that has a negative value for something, you can give them positive experiences to "neutralise" them. Sort of like desensitising a fearful dog to the presence of other dogs. But if an older dog has already assigned a positive value to something, you can't neutralise that? Is that sort of right? So you train your dog and then proof your dog in a controlled environment and with other dogs (if "other dogs" is the object) who equally don't see your dog as "value". You work up to your mark and know that your dog has achieved it, rather than testing and finding your dog is under the mark. Have I answered in a fashion that can be understood? I'm not sure I have? So while you are neutralising your dog, you're working your dog around other dogs who ignore him. And the "test" of whether you have achieved neutralisation is whether your dog seeks interaction with these other dogs or not. If he doesn't ever seek drive satisfaction from the other dog, he is neutralised to them. Is that kind of right? When training and proofing are completed, your dog habitually looks to you for drive satisfaction - and knows that YOU are the only one who can provide it. Consequently, it doesn't look for satisfaction elsewhere. So when a dog is neutralised, then theoretically there is no opportunity for the dog to get "un-neutralised", since it is not seeking drive satisfaction anywhere else. Right? But... although we all try to control our dogs interactions, unpredicted things sometimes happen in life (at least for me!) If the dog one day did happen to get drive satisfaction from somewhere else as an adult, would that "un-neutralise" him? For example, a relative of mine once played with my dog with a squeaky toy without consulting me. I learned from that, and now lock my dog up while I'm not directly supervising him. But if my dog was neutralised, would the damage have already been done, just because on that one occassion he got a positive experience from something/someone else? Sorry, perhaps I'm being very dense here. What I would enjoy is if Steve would visit here and correct me where I might be wrong, as there's always room for that to occur. What I would enjoy would be if Steve took a tour of NZ sometimes... how about it, K9force? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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