MonElite Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Thanks, Erny and Myszka - I'm really enjoying reading your answers! But I dont give any answers!! I only have complicated questions and commnents!! OK I do provide some of my own observations but you should know Amhailte that I have ever in my life owned ONE dog and now I got a second one. And as you might remember my first one is not ideal. (Although he did seem to be ideal on Saturday during the dobe meet) I - like you learn a lot from these subjects, its often more about learning the theory for me than actually a desire to put it into practice, but it certainly is usefull and gives me an opportunity to see that if I do/dont apply this - that happends. On that note - According to K9, you socialise your pup right up until 14 weeks of age (I would have thought 16 weeks, but that's something I need to speak to Steve about - perhaps it is a 'variable' factor to take into account). Assuming you get your pup at 7 or 8 weeks, that's at least 1.5 months where you do all your socialisation - as much as possible. It is after that you cease the opportunity for the pup to receive value from other distractions such as other dogs. I got my dog at 3 or so months old, hence in the beginning of the fear impact period. There was no socialisation done before the fear impact period done at all. What happends than? Introduce the dogs to things AFTER the fear impact period has finished? or gently during? Im talking about things like cars, traffic, masses of people, kids, other non agressive dogs, noises etc. I belive that K9 says lock the dog up for the period, but what if you have missed out on the original socialisation period? Lets use a different word than socialisation - how about introduction of things to the dog during the fear impact period. Thanks to everyone contributing, starting of course with the original poster, I love the subject as well, its fascinating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 (edited) But I dont give any answers!! I only have complicated questions and commnents!! OK I do provide some of my own observations but you should know Amhailte that I have ever in my life owned ONE dog and now I got a second one. I still find your comments helpful - you're at least as knowledgeable as I am about this kind of thing! According to K9, you socialise your pup right up until 14 weeks of age (I would have thought 16 weeks, but that's something I need to speak to Steve about - perhaps it is a 'variable' factor to take into account). Assuming you get your pup at 7 or 8 weeks, that's at least 1.5 months where you do all your socialisation - as much as possible. It is after that you cease the opportunity for the pup to receive value from other distractions such as other dogs. So, the idea is that you socialise the heck out of your puppy until 12 weeks of age, introducing them to friendly dogs, friendly strangers, other animals, strange environments, new situations, etc. Then lock them up during the fear period (12 - 16 weeks), to prevent them having any bad experiences. Then neutralise them after that, to everything except you and your prey rewards? Edited July 10, 2006 by Amhailte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 I dont think its exacty what you said, as they might get a positive value assigned to the dog right from the beginning and you dont want that. I think you are supposed to introduce and show that the other dog brings no safisfaction, hence it neutral. Any dog, cat, park bench or a tree - they bring the same zero satisfaction hence value = none. But hey Im a pet owner not a working dog owner. I want my dog to have a possitive value assigned to my whole family (not that its large ) and to some of my friends. Dogs I couldnt care less if she played with any or not, as long as she isnt dog agro towards any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 A: I understand that neutralisation means that a dog will only seek drive satisfaction from its handler, and is neutral to other distractions. My question is, does that mean that the dog must not assign a positive value to its human and canine family? K9: Neutralisation means setting the value to some thing as zero.. So the answer is yes. My dogs for example have zero value for everyone but me, they dont look for drive satisfaction anywhere except where I say it is... This happens normally though when you start training in drive, as you become the reward holder... For example, if I were to introduce another pup into my household, could it assign a positive value to my other dog and my immediate family - but remain neutral to other dogs and people? Or would I have to be the "be all and end all" for this dog, and teach it to be neutral towards my family or other dog? K9: the dog can hold values to your other dogs & family, & this may be desireable to you, it just isnt desireable to me. Later on when I allow the dogs to run together they can bond but they dont have a value over maybe 2 for eachother where I would be 10 plus... I in prevous times would only fully neutralise a working dog but these days recommend it with ever dog, even a pet... **************************** FP: Can you still get good results even though you don't follow the rules to the letter.... Obviously you wouldn't get absolutely excellent results. Dependant on the rules you do break and the dog I'd imagine? It's hard to explain but I'm not so sure about things like her not having toys etc... K9: yes of course you can, these arent rules as much as tips... The term good is also only as good as one thinks the word good is... lol I would call a dog that is 100% reliable, excellent, good is just below that to me... & I dont think you will get my "good" without being more strict... You might get wha I would call not bad lol... You may remember watching Stamp, you can see how no one but Julie, Stamp & the ball were there, the 20 of us just disapeared... Thats excellent..... E: "Neutralisation" is a program complimentary to "drive training". With drive training, you are likely to achieve a very high degree of reliability. With drive training AND the neutralisation, I'd suggest the degree of reliability would be 100%. K9: perfect... A: That's a bit of a catch 22 then, for those of us with a dog aggressive (non neutralised!) dog who are intending to add a new pup to the family at some point, right? We would ideally want to initially accustom the old dog to the presence of the new pup while it is still young and has "puppy license". But if we intend to attempt to neutralise, we will not want to let the pup associate with the old dog? Those seem like two conflicting goals. K9: & they might be, if your goal of getting a pup is to make things better for the existing dog, then you cant expect that goal will help the pup.... So total neutralisation is desirable for a working dog, but might not actually be desirable for a pet dog, who is expected to be affectionate to his owners family and friends? (In my own case, my "non-doggy" mother has become quite attatched to my present dog, and I think it would probably break her heart if she wasn't allowed to cuddle and fuss over the next puppy!). K9: broken hearts are common with this program, as are 100% reliable dogs, you need to choose which is most important... :p The pup can assign a value to your family, thats no problem, but they could at some stage be a distraction.. I would prefer to get the pup all trained up & then allow un timed contact with other family members... Until then its always guided by you... How about SAR dogs? I was at a SAR course in the weekend, and ended up talking to a civilian dog handler. She said that the SAR dogs were intensively socialised when young so that they loved finding strange people. She said that they used food and drive rewards as well, but also wanted to use pups that were really friendly and confident with people, and who found associating with strangers a positive experience. K9: SARDOG may want to jump in here, but I would bet their dogs would find a stick of dynamite for their toy.... If the reward in search in rescue was finding the victim, then the dog would never go back to the handler to lead them in to actually find the person as the reward had already been gained... Dogs that are neutralised dont dislike people, nor do they like them, they dont care... Mine will let you pat them, then when I say so, they will bite you, then you an pat them again... You could be giving my dog a tummy scratch & if I give them eye contact the will run to me for one pat on the head... One from me = 10 plus, many from you = zero... ************ A: So, the idea is that you socialise the heck out of your puppy until 12 weeks of age, introducing them to friendly dogs, friendly strangers, other animals, strange environments, new situations, etc. K9: No I dont do this, I take the dog to many places & neutralise it to new things, steer away from dogs.. When the first fear impact period hits I keepthe dog at home & dont do anything, when its over I introduce to more dogs that will ignore the pup.. No time before 14 months of age will my dog every play with another dog... Only me & my toy... People who have a pet dog that they are happy with a sit when they have a handful of food will not need to do this, but people who want more than that will benefit, the more you want from the dog the more important it becomes... 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jbbb Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 (edited) <woops double post - sorry!> Edited July 10, 2006 by jbbb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbbb Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Hi K9, as always your answers make me want to ask more questions! :p When training in Drive, should only one person be the 'reward holder'? What if (as in our case) we would both like to be the reward holder? Should we both be doing the training in drive? Or is it only possible to have one reward holder? I am really interested in the psychology of the dog when you dont allow pups to play with another dog, and only then start to neutralise the dog with other neutral dogs until after 14 months old. How does the dog react when it is initally brought into an area with another dog? Does it still try and playbow (and the usual dog incentives to play?). Or does it just completely ignore the other dog, since you are the only thing with value? There is just so much more to dog training than I ever thought existed! Thanks!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 (edited) JBBB: Hi K9, as always your answers make me want to ask more questions! K9: I think you know someone who recently said "always leave your audience wanting more..."... :p When training in Drive, should only one person be the 'reward holder'? What if (as in our case) we would both like to be the reward holder? Should we both be doing the training in drive? Or is it only possible to have one reward holder? K9: if, the dogs primary drive is prey, & only one of you ever gives the prey item, then the reward giver will be the most respected, interesting, rewarding... I am really interested in the psychology of the dog when you dont allow pups to play with another dog, and only then start to neutralise the dog with other neutral dogs until after 14 months old. How does the dog react when it is initally brought into an area with another dog? K9: remember they have seen & met other dogs, they just dont go nuts for them, what do they do? ignore them... Does it still try and playbow K9: no, this is a handshaking (greeting) technique that isnt needed if your not looking to play... If for example the neutralised dog is not working, it will look at the other dog, just not go over to it, just not be distracted by it... When they are working they dont see the others... When have dog try & play with mine, mine just look at them (like they wierd).... Edited July 10, 2006 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noisymina Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 You could be giving my dog a tummy scratch & if I give them eye contact the will run to me for one pat on the head... One from me = 10 plus, many from you = zero... And I thought my dog was just trying to lay guilt trips on me because I'm not patting her and she's getting pats from someone else. Sorry K9 - just an interested pet owner here. :p But I do get sits, drops etc without having food in my hand. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 K9: lol dont be sorry, there really is no such thing as "just" a pet owner... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbbb Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 (edited) K9: I think you know someone who recently said "always leave your audience wanting more..."... :p I wonder who that could be?? :p K9: if, the dogs primary drive is prey, & only one of you ever gives the prey item, then the reward giver will be the most respected, interesting, rewarding... Ok, yes that makes sense.... so if you want every member of the household to have the dog's respect, then they should all be doing the training in drive? I am really interested in the psychology of the dog when you dont allow pups to play with another dog, and only then start to neutralise the dog with other neutral dogs until after 14 months old. How does the dog react when it is initally brought into an area with another dog? K9: remember they have seen & met other dogs, they just dont go nuts for them, what do they do? ignore them... Ah ha! The light goes on! So in the time after the first fear impact period and 14 months, you allow them to meet other neutral dogs, but not allow them to play with the other dogs? Gotcha! Edited to make sense! Edited July 10, 2006 by jbbb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 J: Ok, yes that makes sense.... so if you want every member of the household to have the dog's respect, then they should all be doing the training in drive? K9: yes, but as this isnt always practical, I recommend anyine not wanting to train in prey drive be the master of the TOT.... J: So in the time after the first fear impact period and 14 months, you allow them to meet other neutral dogs, but not allow them to play with the other dogs? Gotcha! K9": by the time they are that age, they can meet any other dog that isnt aggressive to them, neutralised or not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbbb Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 J: Ok, yes that makes sense.... so if you want every member of the household to have the dog's respect, then they should all be doing the training in drive? K9: yes, but as this isnt always practical, I recommend anyine not wanting to train in prey drive be the master of the TOT.... Okay, so in that case the dog will have one person who is the love of their life and the rest of the family are above them in the pack order, so will obey the rest, but just not in drive? Sorry about the 'love of their life' comment, but I just couldnt think of the best way to phrase that! :p K9": by the time they are that age, they can meet any other dog that isnt aggressive to them, neutralised or not... Okay, thanks for clarifying that. I will try and keep the rest of my questions for the info night on Friday! :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Okay, so in that case the dog will have one person who is the love of their life and the rest of the family are above them in the pack order, so will obey the rest, but just not in drive? K9: yes, keep in mind though that the high end of reliability will be in drive.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 (edited) Thanks K9force! That makes a lot of sense to me. K9: broken hearts are common with this program, as are 100% reliable dogs, you need to choose which is most important... The pup can assign a value to your family, thats no problem, but they could at some stage be a distraction.. I would prefer to get the pup all trained up & then allow un timed contact with other family members... Until then its always guided by you... So, the pup isn't allowed to socialise with the family at all until he is 14 months old? Or is he allowed to meet them, but they just can't fuss over him or play with him? Or can they cuddle and pet him, but only after the owner gives the release command? K9: SARDOG may want to jump in here, but I would bet their dogs would find a stick of dynamite for their toy.... If the reward in search in rescue was finding the victim, then the dog would never go back to the handler to lead them in to actually find the person as the reward had already been gained... That makes sense. So the dog can't be scared or wary of strangers, but he just has no particular interest in them until his trainer tells him to get to work. K9: No I dont do this, I take the dog to many places & neutralise it to new things, steer away from dogs.. When the first fear impact period hits I keepthe dog at home & dont do anything, when its over I introduce to more dogs that will ignore the pup..No time before 14 months of age will my dog every play with another dog... Only me & my toy... So, the pup meets lots of strange dogs after the fear impact period, just not dogs that will play with it? Do you put the strange dog in a sit stay for example, then let the pup run up and meet it? Or let the pup see dogs from a distance, just don't let it approach them? Also, how young can you start drive building and drive training? I had the impression that it was only done with adult dogs, but from your reply it sounds like you do it with quite young pups too? Thanks for your time. Edited July 10, 2006 by Amhailte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 (edited) So, the pup isn't allowed to socialise with the family at all until he is 14 months old? Or is he allowed to meet them, but they just can't fuss over him or play with him? Or can they cuddle and pet him, but only after the owner gives the release command? K9: Again its goal dependant... People I know can be around the dog, but only when Im there, they dont pay the dog any attention, this is what "I" do until 14 months old.. That makes sense. So the dog can't be scared or wary of strangers, but he just has no particular interest in them until his trainer tells him to get to work. K9: the dog cant be scared of them, this wouldnt be neutral, but a negative value... The dog finds people as they are the "currency" in which they can buy the toy. In my retriever program, birds & bumpers are the currency in which the dog can buy a play with the toy... They dont love nor hate the bumper/bird/victim, they need them to gain the reward.. So, the pup meets lots of strange dogs after the fear impact period, just not dogs that will play with it? K9: could do, but it doesnt have to be lots... could be only a few.. Only takes one aggressive one to make a pup fearful.... Do you put the strange dog in a sit stay for example, then let the pup run up and meet it? Or let the pup see dogs from a distance, just don't let it approach them? K9: I cant spell out the program on the net, it's simple, just not that simple.. To much room for interpretation & things to go wrong. Also Im sure that a lot of this stuff is covered in the Socialisation & Neutralisation thread. I know your in NZ, but later this year I will have a distance learning package available on this very topic, I already have others.. Also, how young can you start drive building and drive training? I had the impression that it was only done with adult dogs, but from your reply it sounds like you do it with quite young pups too? K9: soon as eyes open Edited July 11, 2006 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 I know your in NZ, but later this year I will have a distance learning package available on this very topic, I already have others... Oooh, do you? Can you divulge some information about your distance learning packages? I was also going to ask you - would you recommend any of the videos on the Leerburg site? The one on building drive & focus looked a little bit like what you do, to me. Also, how young can you start drive building and drive training? I had the impression that it was only done with adult dogs, but from your reply it sounds like you do it with quite young pups too?K9: soon as eyes open Wow, that's amazing. But how can a pup that young get interested in chasing a prey item? Their little legs don't even work properly yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Oooh, do you? Can you divulge some information about your distance learning packages? K9: I am having major upgrades done to my website, its 70 framed now so bigger images video can be viewed faster. There are over a dozen new pages to be added, articles, case studies etc & the info on the packages. There are Training in drive, raising a working puppy, Reliable recall & a few others.. They span 4 months of program info. was also going to ask you - would you recommend any of the videos on the Leerburg site? The one on building drive & focus looked a little bit like what you do, to me. K9: I can say that, I have a lot of clients come to learn this after watching the videos.. But how can a pup that young get interested in chasing a prey item? Their little legs don't even work properly yet. K9: They are born with Prey drive lol. Get them imprinted early... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Thanks Steve! I'll keep checking the website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Did I read correctly, DISTANCE LEARNING PACKAGE!!!!!!!!! Awesome!!!!!!!!!! Quite a few US contacts have been giving me a hard time, which is fine, as Yank is training simply sensationally. As a result I break into song constantly. I also smiled, but still listened with good humour, when one mentioned for goodness sake, get your water wings off you have a US bred dog, Yank will eat you up and spit you out, if you do not use OUR methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 K9 force another thought, if I may please. Yank had high value for other dogs, humans and in fact, was a wild child. Being a wild "child" was fine, as I wanted a clean slate to work with. I hate to brag, but his values have changed. Sure he looked at other dogs, other humans and HIS NOSE which was never off the ground, have resolved, as well as his many other unique habits. He loves his training. Only problem is me, as I continually have to be aware he has only been out of quarantine for 8 weeks, so his training in reality has been short. God damm I love training, and more importantly so do my dogs. Yank returns from training and still sits with great expectation at the back of my vehicles closed door. LOL. Golly I am bragging!!!!!!!! Sorry. Off to hug him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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