Dog Reactive/aggression

[K9-Nutter]

Ok guys, esp all you trainers/behaviousists out there. I want to know how you define the difference between what some people call 'dog reactive' as opposed to what some people may call 'dog aggression' and also whether you deal with those issues in the same way, or are they both really the same thing?. I have noticed in a number of posts people with dog to dog aggression issues who are advised not to correct these dogs as it will only make the issue worse. e.g. the dog may not give any warning by posturing or growling but may learn to just simply go for the other dog-no warning.

My dilemma is that I have a dog (4 yo) who is dog reactive. I'll explain my definition of this - he will often react to another dog but not all dogs, by eyeballing, growling and lunging. He has never bitten/attacked another dog. I am trying to socialise him by taking him to obedience class, so I try to keep within his critical distance. I have been very happy with his progress as he actually submitted to and played with another dog a few weeks ago. This week he was very reactive to a dog beside him in class so I dealt with it by increasing his distance and tried to keep his focus on me as much as possible. I gave him a verbal correction, a low arghhhhhh before I moved away. Then praised when there was awareness but no reaction.

I was told by the instructor that I should have given him a harsh correction on the correction collar, in his words "one that lifted all 4 paws off the ground - that'll get him out of it". So guys which is it, a correction or no correction? Personally I felt very uncomfortable with his advise and certainly did not follow through with it. But should I have? is he right? is this the way to deal with this problem? or should I go with my gut instinct and keep away from that class? I'm now just confused and I really want to do the right thing by my dog (and others)..

Edited June 25, 2006 by K9-Nutter

[Nekhbet]

I dont beleive such a harsh correction is necessary. You are trying to create a dog that is calm and unresponsive to other dogs, not increase its anxiety.

You corrected and moved away. I dont think the dog actually understood what the correction was about. For looking? Was he eyeballing? pawing? snapping the air? whimpering? This type of thing corrections are not really useful as the dog gets corrected and then moves away without understanding what he did wrong... hence the problem continues and he becomes more unprdictable.

Maybe a good idea would be to not bother at the moment with training him to the point of contact. You dont know what is the trigger so you could set yourself back with him. He will play but then can suddenly lunge etc. Work on focus on you and rewarding for not even looking at other dogs. Stay at a comfortable distance for a few weeks then bring him in closer little by little. Do it gradually and you will find him retain his training and calm down as you progress. If you move him in too fast he will associate training with feeling uncomfortable.

If he looks at another dog get his attention with food/toy and praise him. I have been taught if he keeps turning then give a little correction but if you start at a comfortable distance you shouldnt need to.

Trainer sounds like a bit of a nuff nuff. Tell him he should demonstrate the technique with a choker chain around his own neck and have someone yank hard enough to 'lift his arse off the ground'. Really its barbaric and the dog learns nothing but to expect pain.

[MonElite]

I will speak from personal experience. I had a dog reacive dog. He got into couple of fights at some stage, but wasnt really that bad, and wouldnt attack the other dogs just like that for no reason. However if he disliked the dog, or eyeballing was happening the hell would open. Than he got attacked by a friendly enough looking GR, so he became worse.

I went to ob clubs and in one club, there was a staffie that my dog didnt like. I ws told exactly what you were, give him huge correction blah blah, so I did, not knowing any better.

Over a period of time I have suppressed the warning signals and my dog would just all of a suddend lounge at other dogs with an intent to injure them.

Of course (still not knowing any better) I listened to the instructors in the club and they made me stay with the dog and weaved the stuffy near us. My dog grabbed the staffy it took 4 of us to separate them, basically we strungled my dog.

So I seeked help from a pro (K9 Force) and a new world of knowledge had opened.

I dont think that I will ever be able to have my dog not dog agro, but I control the situations that I put him in, I tought him a very good recall and we didnt have any serious incidents for months and months.

He still isnt happy about meeting other dogs but I have given up on an idea of a happy stroll in the park and not watching my dog nor the sourounding for what is approaching.

I walk in leash free park, but either alone or with dogs that my dog knows.

Today I was in the park playing with my new puppy, my dog off lead doing whatever he wanted to and a couple appeared with a small fluffy on lead. My dog spoted the fluffy and my heart stoped, just like it would 18 or so month ago (than he would run to the dog and want to fight with it), but I called him and he came back, people went by and we all minded our own business.

I am in no way saying that a full turn around isnt possible, I took an easy way out of controling situations and having good recall.

[Erny]

Ok guys, esp all you trainers/behaviousists out there. I want to know how you define the difference between what some people call 'dog reactive' as opposed to what some people may call 'dog aggression' ...

IMO, "reactive" simply means the dog reacts in one shape or form (usually excessively) in the presence of another dog/s (stimuli).

Therefore, "reaction threshold" is the point of distance from the stimuli when the dog first begins to think about reacting.

A specific description for the "reaction" in your case (based on your description here) is "dog aggression". Naturally, to suggest a behaviour treatment method, it would be necessary to observe the dog (as there are many nuances of behaviour that dog pet owners don't understand or know to look for).

There are many people who refer to their dogs as "reactive to other dogs" - this can mean aggressively, or even excessive/manic excitement.

Although there are many who have set "rules" for dealing with dog aggressive dogs and may well post them here or elsewhere, I admit that what I suggest and/or what I do does for the major part depend on the dog in question and sometimes the circumstances at the time (particularly if the environment I happens-chance to find myself in is not as controlled as I would wish for).

For the purposes of info over the net though, essentially the dog should be worked at low level intensity with low level stimulus and beginning a bit behind the reaction threshold but working up to the threshold. I like to finish behind the threshold, so we can end on a high note. A lot of praise/reward goes into desired behaviour. A lot of training in obedience skills at home and in non-doggy areas (to build up as much reliability as possible so these skills will be part way reasonable to assist when the dog is in the presence of o/dogs) is also a bonus/necessity.

Be aware that thresholds can change from day to day and moment to moment and when a dog has only just begun its behaviour modification program it is best to err on the side of caution when it comes to judging threshold distances.

... and also whether you deal with those issues in the same way, or are they both really the same thing?.

As described above, they aren't necessarily the same thing so would not necessarily be dealt with in the same way. In any case, the way one would deal with the issue of aggression may be different (in varying degrees) from one dog to the next.

[Rusky]

I want to know how you define the difference between what some people call 'dog reactive' as opposed to what some people may call 'dog aggression' and also whether you deal with those issues in the same way, or are they both really the same thing?.

In WA these days we don't speak of aggression when speaking to someone about their dog, we say it is reactive. So if the dog reacted to another dog many people here would say dog to dog aggression. I do if I am on this forum then people from all states and all backgrounds understand my meaning. Reactive is a nice terminology and you will see it creeping its way round the world soon so that everyone will soon say reactive and won't say aggressive.

He has never bitten/attacked another dog. I am trying to socialise him by taking him to obedience class, so I try to keep within his critical distance. I have been very happy with his progress as he actually submitted to and played with another dog a few weeks ago. This week he was very reactive to a dog beside him in class so I dealt with it by increasing his distance and tried to keep his focus on me as much as possible. I gave him a verbal correction, a low arghhhhhh before I moved away. Then praised when there was awareness but no reaction.

great ;)

I was told by the instructor that I should have given him a harsh correction on the correction collar, in his words "one that lifted all 4 paws off the ground - that'll get him out of it

that is shocking advice which will make the dog even more reactive/aggressive.

My advice is to get a new trainer who uses positive training, much as you were doing yourself. Someone who can help you to see calming signals and show you how to encourage those. Someone who will use and praise critical distance showing you how to shorten the distance, sounds like you were doing ok.

[Erny]

In WA these days we don't speak of aggression when speaking to someone about their dog, we say it is reactive. ... Reactive is a nice terminology and you will see it creeping its way round the world soon so that everyone will soon say reactive and won't say aggressive.

I hope you're wrong, Rusky. Reactive (IMO) is too general and does not supply anything close to description. "Reactive" could also be where a dog is so frightened that it runs, panics and hides behind the owner's legs when it espies another (eg) dog. Someone will post "reactive" here on (eg) DOL and that's only going to lead to even more (wrong) assumptions by readers than what are quite often already made. Or, at best, lead to the necessity for more questions (the answer to which will probably contain the word "aggression" ... so we're back to square one anyway) before a calculated response can be given.

Wonder what word we'll have to replace "reactive" with, once that becomes a 'dirty' word. The english language is (IMO) becoming more and more limiting in its precise meaning. Is this because of the 'soft' society we're becoming? That we don't like to hear the truth or somehow find it offensive? Sorry, off topic (slightly).

Edited June 25, 2006 by Erny

[K9-Nutter]

Thanks for the replies and the experiences, all appreciated. It does seem as though an obedience class with 10 or more dogs into which I am forced to be in close proximity. i.e. closer than I would normally take my dog, is not the way to go at the moment anyway. Clearly in a lot of obedience schools there is a lack of both understanding of dog behaviour and/or the flexibility to allow someone to follow a desentisation program. Shame considering there are so many dogs that have these issues - I thought we were going so well too until this instructor came along. ;)

Rusky, that is what I was getting at i.e. by calling this behaviour reactive rather than what it is, that is aggressive - are we going the way of everything else in society and trying to be too "politically correct". I am inclined to agree with Erny's definition, that reactive probably covers too many other behaviours and is not precise enough.

[snobbybobby]

Thanks for the replies and the experiences, all appreciated. It does seem as though an obedience class with 10 or more dogs into which I am forced to be in close proximity. i.e. closer than I would normally take my dog, is not the way to go at the moment anyway. Clearly in a lot of obedience schools there is a lack of both understanding of dog behaviour and/or the flexibility to allow someone to follow a desentisation program. Shame considering there are so many dogs that have these issues [end quote]

One obedience club that I know of in Victoria uses "space" coats - distinctive coats or scarves which say "give me space". These coats let reactive/aggressive dogs have their own space with their handler where the issues can be worked on sensibly.

There are so many causes of inter-dog aggression and, IMO, many dogs going to obedience clubs are forced into these circumstances, their handlers eventually being sent off and the dog expelled through lack of understanding. No problems are solved this way! As for "flooding" a nervous dog by doing "weaving" - a recipe for disaster as far as I'm concerned.

I suggest that you approach the committee with the suggestion of "space" coats and maybe see if they would be willing to get somebody who knows about dog behaviour such as Erny to go and talk to the instructors as part of their on-going education, which I'm sure they could do with.

[jaybeece]

I was told by the instructor that I should have given him a harsh correction on the correction collar, in his words "one that lifted all 4 paws off the ground - that'll get him out of it". So guys which is it, a correction or no correction? Personally I felt very uncomfortable with his advise and certainly did not follow through with it. But should I have? is he right? is this the way to deal with this problem? or should I go with my gut instinct and keep away from that class? I'm now just confused and I really want to do the right thing by my dog (and others)..

I had an instructor like this too. Only she didn't tell me to do it, she took the dog off me and did it right in front of me. My poor dog was a nervous wreck after 5 minutes with her and was fearful of the choker for a good couple of weeks afterwards ;) It broke my heart to see a normally happy dog reduced to a wreck by some silly girl with no clue and it set us back a long way in both obedience and sorting out his issues.

Worst thing about it was it all could have been prevented if I'd said "no, please just explain what you want me to do", as if she'd described what she was intending there is no way in hell I would have let her even touch him.

Over a period of time I have suppressed the warning signals and my dog would just all of a suddend lounge at other dogs with an intent to injure them.

Of course (still not knowing any better) I listened to the instructors in the club and they made me stay with the dog and weaved the stuffy near us. My dog grabbed the staffy it took 4 of us to separate them, basically we strungled my dog.

This is the biggest problem with correcting a dog severly for showing aggression. The worst thing you could ever see in a dog is "dishonesty" because you end up with an unpredictable and unreadable dog.

I've ended up taking my dog out of obedience for a little while because it's the only place where I can count on him reacting at some point. Even keeping a distance from the class doesn't prevent reactions 100% and he spends too much time shaking and looking nervous, despite my best efforts to calm him down. I ended up having to look at who I was taking him to obedience for- me or him? It was me. I love going- the people are wonderfully supportive and so understanding, but the dog at this stage does not get anything positive from it. I might take him back again in a month or 2 and see how he goes.

I've spent so many months milking every resource I can find dry, from people to books to the internet, on how to deal with his issues and now we've got a positive system worked out he improves every week. He's gotten into the habit of automatically sitting whenever he feels challenged by something and he's reacting less and less to things that would have made him go mental only a month ago. He's beginning realise that other dogs walking down the street mean him no harm, and even if they did I'm there to make sure he'll be ok I'm so proud of my silly boy

[Rusky]

Wonder what word we'll have to replace "reactive" with, once that becomes a 'dirty' word

no idea Erny. ;)

I was slapped quite hard for calling a dog aggressive some time ago, till then reactive was a terminology I had only heard for dogs who were afraid. I think maybe it is a descriptive term. I guess also that the outcome with a fearful dog who bites is the same.

Someone says

my dog is aggressive

the question asked is

when does the dog behave in such and such a way.

The dog reacts when people approach him...

The dog reacts when other dogs are present too

the question then is

what does the dog do? explain his body language..... and so on.

In any case unless people slip up ( like calling a training collar a choker) the terminology is reactive.

I think though that maybe in the case of K9 nutter the terminology used was for that of a fearful dog.

six of one half a dozen of the other in this politically correct world we live in. I think 'reactive' for a dog emptying his anal glands in fear as he backs away barking is probably not the right terminology either.

[Jefe's owners]

I was told by the instructor that I should have given him a harsh correction on the correction collar, in his words "one that lifted all 4 paws off the ground - that'll get him out of it".

That kind of statements are the reason why I didn't take my rotti to my local dog club. The way I saw corrections being applied to dogs, where dogs would literally were given a correction that "lifted the dog of ground, on the air, and make a 360 degree around the handler", just in front of the trainer... that only means they support this kind on harship on the dog. I won't say wich club was this, but I live on Epping, NSW. ;)

So guys which is it, a correction or no correction? Personally I felt very uncomfortable with his advise and certainly did not follow through with it. But should I have? is he right? is this the way to deal with this problem? or should I go with my gut instinct and keep away from that class? I'm now just confused and I really want to do the right thing by my dog (and others)..

Trust your gut... stay away from that class. You are doing good trying to teach the dog the right way to behave around other dogs by positive methods.

[Alpha]

will speak from personal experience. I had a dog reacive dog. He got into couple of fights at some stage, but wasnt really that bad, and wouldnt attack the other dogs just like that for no reason. However if he disliked the dog, or eyeballing was happening the hell would open.

I'm with myszka on this same happened to me but I was dumb and trusting enough to allow a instructor to snatch my dogs lead from me and he placed my dog in a position where he lunged to attack and the instructor used the correction chain to lift my dog up and slam him down, he dislocated my dogs knee. Being new to the club I was heartbroken, no one offered to help, no one asked if he was ok, NOTHING. We took him to the local animal chiroprator ( George Schofield for thoese who know him) and he was aghast at how the dislocation happened. VCA could do nothing about it as it was an internal club issue and had to go before committee but as it was training related, it was a Training Advisory Committee matter and those meeting were held "in camera". It was then I decided I would prove them all WRONG and use methods I was learning from another handler who had offered to help, I became a instructor many years later and used positive methods ( much to their dismay) and went on to trial with my boy. Trust your instincts, nothing to say you cannot attend the club and use YOUR methods and the class is just a socialising/proofing area for you to train your dog.. YOUR WAY

[K9-Nutter]

Trust your instincts, nothing to say you cannot attend the club and use YOUR methods and the class is just a socialising/proofing area for you to train your dog.. YOUR WAY

I thought so too, this is what I had been doing (quite successfully I thought) until we went up another class and came upon this new instructor. Part of the problem is this club is very geared to training for obedience trialling. So there is no room for someone who is not too concerned about perfect heeling or the precise requirements required to trial, as Mr Bullyboy told me, "that is what we do in this class". Maybe its time VCA affiliated volunteer clubs need to look at what they are offering the general public. This may have been ok 30 yrs ago when only people who wanted to trial bothered to take their dogs to training - these days I suspect most of their members just want well mannered dogs.

Thanks Alpha, I will try another week and speak to the instructor before class and maybe we can come to some agreement.

[Erny]

I think 'reactive' for a dog emptying his anal glands in fear as he backs away barking is probably not the right terminology either.

No, it's not. More correctly referred to as "sh#@ scared".

[Kavik]

I understand your frustration

Zoe is dog aggressive. Knowing what I do now, I did not help the situation when it first started because I didn't know what to do or how to handle it. We persisted at an obedience club for a long time, and while in class heeling when dogs aren't too close she isn't too bad, but when we stop, or dogs play or are running around in class, she was still aggressive. I don't take her to classes anymore - it is too stressful. It is too bad, because in other aspects of her obedience and agility she is very good.

What I would like to do and I think would help Zoe is attention work with a clicker (I do this already) - and at a distance from other dogs click for looking at me instead of the other dog, and then coming to me and sitting next to me instead of paying attention to the other dog. And then decrease distance to the other dogs. I want another dog to be a cue for giving her attention to me. Unfortunately, I need dogs to help me out and it is hard, how do you ask someone to help you with aggression problems? And Zoe is 6 years old, so I don't know how much can be achieved.

[Rusky]

I think 'reactive' for a dog emptying his anal glands in fear as he backs away barking is probably not the right terminology either.

No, it's not. More correctly referred to as "sh#@ scared".

exactly

[poodlefan]

Volunteer dog training clubs are fine for most dogs and handlers. Your average punter only wants to be able to teach Fido to sit, walk on a loose lead, not jump on the kids, and come when he's called. Most handlers don't stay 6 months. They get what they pay for and they leave. Anyone who stays around is either into dog training for itself or does dog sports.

I can't believe how many clubs are still using negative training methods but many old and bold handlers (who run the show) see no reason to change what has always worked for them.

Some clubs have very experienced triallers who can teach precision heeling etc but don't know much about dog behaviour. Frankly many experienced triallers have never trained a truelly challenging dog in their lives. They usually luck in with their first dogs (I've seen dogs in the ring heeling to the most vague and erratic signals/footwork) and then buy dogs for the job. They can teach an exercise but have no idea about dog behaviour. Some have even less idea about training handlers - and that's what you are paying for.

You get the odd gem of a trainer in such clubs but they can be hard to find.. look for someone who has done really well with a "non-traditonal" obedience breed or who has an aggro dog and has learned to manage them well. Chances are they've had to go outside the traditional training regimes to get the results they have achieved and they are the wiser for it.

For dogs with behavioural issues, your average volunteer (and many a professional) dog trainer is batting out of their league. Dog aggression in particular requires experienced professional diagnosis and intervention. I understand there are some good behaviouralists in Melbourne and I'm sure DOLers can give you some names.

BTW - precision heel work is about refining how well you and your dog work as a team. It has its place in dog training and its certainly worth getting on top of early if you ever want to trial. Much easier to teach your dog the right way rather than to try to undo bad habits later on.

You need to shop around for a dog club whose training philosophy aligns with yours. Never never let an instructor handle your dog for anything other than a demonstration and not then if it has behavioural issues. IF they have to take the dog from you to teach it, then they are failing to teach YOU to teach it - and that's what you are paying for. This is one of my pet peeves.

And yes, I'm a volunteer dog club instructor - but I know when I'm out of my depth.

Edited June 26, 2006 by poodlefan

[Rusky]

Frankly many experienced triallers have never trained a truelly challenging dog in their lives. They usually luck in with their first dogs (I've seen dogs in the ring heeling to the most vague and erratic signals/footwork) and then buy dogs for the job.

very very true

Poodlefan your post was terrific. I read and left then thought... nah I have to leave a comment.

All the things you say are things that get discussed with my friends regularly.

I really really wish that trialing wasn't such a serious business. I love to see dogs like one great dane recently happily running around an agility ring, everyone cheered when he finished and I will never forget his lovely bum disappearing down the tunnel.

[poodlefan]

Rusky:

I love to see dogs like one great dane recently happily running around an agility ring, everyone cheered when he finished and I will never forget his lovely bum disappearing down the tunnel.

Was that the Qld Dane who was at the Nationals - lovely stuff. :rolleyes:

I obedience trial. People get into it for the same number of reasons they get into any other dog sports. Some like the challenge, can't or don't want to do other dog sports and do it for the outing for their dog. Others are the "victory or death" brigade for whom anything less than a 190 and first place is failure - and I'm fine with that providing they treat their dogs well. Others, like me, consider that obedience is a building block to all other dog sports and like to try for a variety of titles with their dogs.

There are still others who take on the challenge of a non-traditional breed and persevere regardless of the set backs. We recently lost an absolute gem of a trainer here in the ACT. Jo Ballard took a PARSON RUSSELL TERRIER to UD and put obedience titles on other Parsons too - she always had advice and time for other terrier trainers and will be sorely missed.

There are some absolutely marvellous people out there doing obedience trialling and some of them are extremely knowledgeable about dog behaviour. However the fact remains IMHO that a few of the more prominent triallers don't know half as much as they like to think they do.

A case in point is people who've got lots of titles on your larger obedience breeds who then proceed to pontificate about training smaller dogs. Oh no, you shouldn't have to bend to give signals. (they ping you for this when judging). .yeah and their dogs get their signals right in front of their faces..

Edited June 27, 2006 by poodlefan

[Optimus]

If you are in Victoria, Keilor Obedience Club in Fullerton Road, Keilor (East?) just off Tullamarine Freeway is completely positive based training - NO CHOKER CHAINS ALLOWED