Getting Annoying...

[Nekhbet]

I am amazed and shocked at the responses. This poor girl is going through a tough time, Keisha is too, and she gets flamed within an inch of her life. She said she regretted it, and no one had the sense to see how pushed she must have been. And she's not the only one to have a vent about their dogs so get off your high horses. If you have nothing constructive to say then DONT.

PLUS being told to get rid of her dogs. That shitty attitude created these dogs in the first place and she has poured so much time and money into both of them to train and love. Herr Rott will know how Hudson was and is now. I have met both dogs and she has really come a long way with her. Anyone else would have given up and PTS dogs that have HUMAN CREATED PROBLEMS. I hate to think what would happen in a time of personal crisis for those people that reccomended it, what would you do with yours? Neither of these dogs fall into the rehoming category.

Unfortunately we have lost our trainer, Scope and I trained with an excellent guy but last week he broke the bad news he was no longer doing it. We both trust few trainers here in Melb with our dogs so we have to start from scratch. Emailed advice will only go so far and what happens in the mean time? Or is she meant to fly up to Steve everytime she needs a lesson?

Her GSD was given away by the first family because it was a vocal dog and disobedient. Keisha is not a typical huggy GSD, she's her own girl and really is Scope's dog. She has been moved to a new house and like K9 said she has had a whole lifestyle change and is carrying on like a pork chop, like most GSDs will. Scope needs support and real advice, not everyone's 2c worth.

[Herr Rottweiler]

Speeding in a car is not OK, drink driving is not OK, black mail is not OK, adultry is not OK but people still do it and regret the consequences afterwards which Scope did when she punched her dog. She realised that what she did was wrong, had the courage to face her conviction and asked for help.

How many people hit their dogs and never own up to it? Scope, you did the wrong thing in that situation but you know that allready and I admire that you can front up to the firing squad.

If you need help, you know how to contact me.

[jaybeece]

With what Steve has said above, I agree with him 100%! Scope does not need your angered scorn for something she is fully aware is wrong and had the guts to post it on the list. I'm not recommending that anyone needs to admire her for doing this rather they should be aware that this is a cry for help not to be chastised.

Look, there was no anger or scorn. The majority of responses over hitting were directed at the person who posted to say they've punched their dogs a million times. This has since been clarified and since then the only comments about hitting have come from people such as yourself.

Also, as this is a public forum you need to understand that any responses are not for the OP alone. When someone posts to say they hit their dog, even with the full knowledge that it was not the right thing to do it still bears mentioning as others will be reading as well. Not acknowledging this in replies implies that it's not an important factor in the thread when it most certainly is. I also wouldn't be saying something like "That's ok, we all hit our dogs at some point" because I haven't and will not. Simple as that. Why would I lie? If I get frustrated (and believe me I do!) I take a few deep breaths and have a time out from the dog.

I did express my conern about the OP's lashing out at the dog out of frustration and I'm still concerned as they thought there was a chance it would happen again. I think that if a dog makes you that frustrated then there is bigger problem that should be addressed.

To say to some one that you should never ever hit a dog in ANY circumstance is rediculous! What would you advise someone to do if a dog was hanging off them or a family member? Yes this situation is extreme, but ask yourself this and be resonable, Would you stand there and negotiate with the dog or would you defend yourself?

Break stick or something similar? Pull the dog away with with it's back legs? Grab collar, pull and twist till it lets go?

What would hitting accomplish if a dog's latched onto you or someone else, other than further aggravate it? Other than kicking away an aggressive dog that hasn't latched on yet, I don't see how violence has a purpose when dealing with a dog. Guess that makes me "rediculous".

PLUS being told to get rid of her dogs.

Why is this shitty? The dog seems to need more attention than she's currently getting? I'm not saying that the OP is in anyway neglectful, it's just that some dogs need a lot more one on one time than others. No-one said "GET RID OF IT LOL", I said it based on the description given of the situation and how much the OP was stressing.

Sometimes it is better to look at what is best for the dog and based on the description of the situation my opinion was that it may be better for the dog to be rehomed.

I think that the early suggestions given were polite, sensible and constructive.

Edited June 22, 2006 by jaybeece

[Erny]

To say to some one that you should never ever hit a dog in ANY circumstance is rediculous! What would you advise someone to do if a dog was hanging off them or a family member?

Yes, that is a very different situation and it would be totally understandable. But punching into a dog out of your own frustration is never OK.

My understanding of Scope's original post was that she punched the dog because it re-directed aggression towards her. I am not a believer in "hitting" as part of a training regime, but in the absence of being able to do anything else, I would strike out at a dog who aggressed towards me. Of course, whether or not I took any action at all would depend on whether I felt sufficiently confident that the dog would not rally to the challenge.

IMO, Scope has been very patient with both dogs, given their problematic natures, and she has dedicated herself to learning as much as is possible about how to resolve their issues. I have met Hudson and I can say first hand that working with him has been one very major task for Scope, that many others here would feign away from. Keisha has her issues too, and these may well be exacerbated by all the changes Scope has recently made to lifestyle, residency and training methodology .... but that is not to say they will not be overcome.

Bravo, Scope for your perserverance and courage in posting your thoughts and feelings. You weren't seeking people to support your actions, this was clear - you were venting your frustration (better to do so on the keyboard than elsewhere ) and asking for help.

IMO those who wish to run you down and tred on you for that must secretly admire you for your honesty and courage.

To everyone who has further chastised Scope for something she's already acknowledged as not necessarily ideal, you are simply flogging the willing horse and I believe you owe her an apology.

Edited June 22, 2006 by Erny

[Herr Rottweiler]

Break stick or something similar? Pull the dog away with with it's back legs? Grab collar, pull and twist till it lets go?

What would hitting accomplish if a dog's latched onto you or someone else, other than further aggravate it? Other than kicking away an aggressive dog that hasn't latched on yet, I don't see how violence has a purpose when dealing with a dog. Guess that makes me "rediculous".

I would rather finiliase the situation with my flesh attached rather than experiment with ways to get the dog off. Who carries a break stick in their pocket?

While I agree there are methods that you have mentioned that may work, I witnessed a dog rip the whole ear off another dog when one bright spark grabbed it by the back of the legs and pulled!

As far as being violent towards a dog I think your statement is being rediculous as you are reading into my comments exactly what you want to make your point which other have done to Scope. I'm discussing a defensive action in a hypathetical situation where striking the dog may be neccesary. My point Jaybeece in case you missed it was, ONLY AS A LAST RESORT & if the punishment fits the crime.

[jaybeece]

I would rather finiliase the situation with my flesh attached rather than experiment with ways to get the dog off. Who carries a break stick in their pocket?

While I agree there are methods that you have mentioned that may work, I witnessed a dog rip the whole ear off another dog when one bright spark grabbed it by the back of the legs and pulled!

As far as being violent towards a dog I think your statement is being rediculous as you are reading into my comments exactly what you want to make your point which other have done to Scope. I'm discussing a defensive action in a hypathetical situation where striking the dog may be neccesary. My point Jaybeece in case you missed it was, ONLY AS A LAST RESORT & if the punishment fits the crime.

I understand your point Herr Rottweiler, that doesn't mean I agree with you. There is no need to be condescending.

In the situation where the dog's ear was ripped off it the attacking dog would have been in a high state of arrousal where it would have been unlikely to care about pain or heed yelling. I personally don't see how belting the dog would do anything other than aggravate it. Do you understand what I'm saying?

You'll also note I said "break stick or something similar". Of course I'm not suggesting that someone would have one lying around or in their pocket. You asked "Would you stand there and negotiate with the dog or would you defend yourself?" I gave you some answers.

Regardless of the difference of opinion, I believe the bigger issue was that there are some who feel like the OP was attacked.

It might do to remember that most who have gotten upset know the OP personally and know more about the situation. Many of us don't and only have the first post to go by. We simply don't have the same experiences as the rest of you with Scope and that's not our fault. If she wanted a more personal touch then an internet forum is perhaps not the best medium for her post.

This is the big bad internet folks. The thing that brings us together is out mutual love for dogs, but you must understand that we are all vastly different in mannerisms and approaches on things. Personally, I've had some pretty harsh comments made towards me on another forum in regards to things that weren't even my fault with my dog but I took it on the chin and accepted it as the person had taken the time out of their day to try and help me. I think you should all take a step back from the emotional side of this thread and think about that.

Edited June 22, 2006 by jaybeece

[Herr Rottweiler]

Jaybeece, even though you interpreted my post as condescending that was not the vein it was intended. I understand your point of view and I'm not being emotional about anything I'm posting rather I'm attempting to be practical and i'm genuinely against anthropomorphism as I see it filling dog pounds.

To be clear to anyone reading this, striking an animal in frustration with anything, (chains, halti's, leads etc.) is absurd. Even though I have smacked my dogs before I have had no adverse side effects from it as it was justified as a correction and it was never through frustration or anger as that is most definately bond deminishing. Please be aware that 3 out of 4 of my dogs are working breeds but even my pug is stronger in standing up to me than my 60 kg Rottweiler and is definately a candidtae for a good smacked bottom .

None of my posts are about condoning belting dogs, they are merely pointing out that; a corection, is a correction, is a correction! Saying never ever ever under any circumstances is ignorant and unrealistic. I understand that some people on here have strong feelings against this and that's their prerogative but don't bully people into thinking like you do as i find many folks to be hypercritical when it suits them.

[Erny]

Jaybeece .... if my writings count for anything - I promise you can take HR at his word. I've seen HR with his dogs. He adores them and they him. In fact, in the years I've known HR, I haven't seen a smack or hit yet - so I know he's not suggesting the action of a hit/smack is a common aspect.

I will also ask, HR - if you EVER are around when/if a dog has latched onto me, I really won't care how you get the dog off me, just get it off as quickly as possible AND with the least amount of damage TO ME. Please.

[jaybeece]

I understand your point of view and I'm not being emotional about anything I'm posting rather I'm attempting to be practical and i'm genuinely against anthropomorphism as I see it filling dog pounds.

I'm glad we can come to an understanding!

Just one last thing though, my stance against hitting dogs is not about anthropomorphising them. As stated previously in this thread, I have no problem with smacking a child when needed!

Also, when I suggested rehoming the dog, it was not intended as a suggestion to dump the dog in a pound- far from it! That just sounds like a death sentence for a dog with issues. I meant it as taking the time to find someone who will be able to devote the time needed to work with the dog. Once again this is in no way a slight against the OP and I'm not suggesting she is anything less than capable, some dogs just need to be the sole light of their owner's life.

Erny- it's ok, I think HR sounds like a great dog owner

[Erny]

Erny- it's ok, I think HR sounds like a great dog owner

Jaybeece -

[Herr Rottweiler]

Thanks Erny and Jaybeece for your understanding It's against my nature to hurt or taunt animals as I see no joy or benefit to it. I love my dogs and many of the dogs that my clients have and I would never condone anything that portrayed cruelty to them.

Erny, you have my word

Edited June 22, 2006 by Herr Rottweiler

[phatdex]

Yes, I understood as Erny did that the shep tried to bite her and she punched it. I have never punched a dog, but I have given a dog a damn hard smack that bruised my hand so I know how she felt.

I feel my shar pei is the same as your shep. I gave up trying to train my amstaff in weight pull because of him. if I left him in the backyard while training the amstaff he would keep licking the amstaffs face, running around us and carrying on. If I locked him inside he howled the house down and my amstaff would be too distracted to listen to me. In order to do it i would need someone to take the shar pei for a walk also. So I know the frustration.

My Amstaff is reliant on me as he was an only child, my shar pei is totally reliant on my amstaff as when he was little he was always with my amstaff and thus he will listen to the amstaff before he listens to me.

[wyvernblade]

Scope, if you ARE still around and reading, then please letme say that even though I don't know you, I got the impression when I met you at K9's Melbourne Seminar, that you love your dogs and are doing all the right things by them. DON'T give up! They are worth it, and altho I don't have any constructive advice, keep trying, things will work out for the best I'll have to come and meet your guys one day (If that's ok!)

[grotty_rotty]

well after all of this - I hope Scope has sought assistance for her situation.

I would be keen to learn from her situation training wise, as to what has been recommended.

Please excuse me for getting back to the original question.

I shall take my degree and temper and go now

GR

[Guest Tess32]

What is so wrong with suggesting that rehoming might be a suitable option? Hudson and Keisha sound like quite difficult dogs to deal with, and many people can only handle one difficult dog. If Scope had to rehome, I don't think anyone would look down on her, so why is the suggestion so awful? Some dogs are so difficult they prosper in a one dog home with plenty of attention and training time.

[Steve K9Pro]

E: My understanding of Scope's original post was that she punched the dog because it re-directed aggression towards her.

K9: yes thats what I understand to be the case also, whilst the thread is titled "getting annoyng", Scope punching her dog wasnt a reaction to "being annoyed", it was an act of defence.

I am not a believer in "hitting" as part of a training regime, but in the absence of being able to do anything else, I would strike out at a dog who aggressed towards me.

K9: I too agree with this, people who say that if a dog attacked them they would never hit the dog, quite simply have never been really attacked....

A situation comes to mind of when I was on a training field once, a dominant very large breed dog attacked the owner in a rank battle, the dogs goal was to defeat the owner, even if that meant death...

People stood by & watched as I ran accross the field (100 m plus)..

I grabbed the dogs collar & cut off the dogs air, it never noticed, it had locked onto the lower torso of the owner & was thrashing so hard, the lady was going to end up torn in half...

Did I punch the dog? did I ever! was it to teach the dog anything? absoluetly not... It was to save the ladies life.

As a side note, with me punching the dog did it let go? Nope... doubt it noticed.

I locked my arm around the dogs neck & legs around it waist & choked it unconscious... Took 3 minutes...

The dog never let go until its eyes rolled back & it was out, it fought hard until then.

The lady lost so much blood, it took three 6ft x 4 ft tarps to cover the blood stained grass... She left in critical condition..

The dog came to after about 40 seconds & tried to go at her again, by that time we had tethered the dog...

(This all started as she wouldnt give the dog a food treat btw)...

In theory, we can all say what we would like to do, but few of us are capable of acting that way under pressure...

I too dont believe in being cruel to an animal either, but there are some times that action is required...

As in another time that a guy came over to me when I arrived at the vet to look at a dog...

He seen my shirt & asked if I could give him a few pointers...

I said sure, he got his Border Collie out of the car & brought it over, I noted it was a little bit hand shy & submissive...

I said what the prob? He waited until another dog came out of the vet, his dog made a low growl & he reacted by pulling out a Riding crop & whipping the dog hard as he could accross the face.

The dog stopped the aggression (obviously).

I stood there silent in a bit of shock, the dog got up from the submissive down & he whipped it again screaming drop!.

I asked if I could take a look at the crop, calmly...

He said sure & started on about he isnt getting anywhere with the dog..

I said thats because your an idiot, I told him that whipping the dog in the face was barbaric, he disagreed so I whipped his face with it..

He seen the direction of our discussion & left without his riding crop...

Now Im not in the habit or whipping potential customers accross the face but in this case iyt was the LEAST I could do...

************************************

Deanne: It's like the man who hits his wife... he has no control over himself when he is annoyed/angered.

K9: Im sure you would diagnose this as a loss of someones temper? That is some what different to some one reacting in defence, wouldnt you agree?

D: Yes, I was annoyed at the attitude in the initial post. I did not punch my computer screen though.

K9: no but you admit that your anger got the better of you...

You said it right here

I started to read this thread and did not bother reading it until the end, my anger got the better of me.

K9: You may wanna write yourself up a script for some of that Anger management....

I consider that worse than someone who simply reacted in defence. Self defence is a natural reaction of any animal, including us...

D: Anger is a normal human emotion, only when it is not controlled is there a problem. How can you be so ignorant?

K9: gee ignorance? Would you not deem someones anger out of control when it "gets the better of them"?

As I said its very easy to sit back & use a bit of hindsight to tell people where they have gone wrong, where they should or shouldnt have done something,. & then we can also see when given a little bit of stimulation, even someone versed in behaviour can have something get the better of them...

Ease up, as I said earlier, I am certain that Scope is aware that she did the wrong thing, it doesnt need to be rubbed in another several times...

[BrunoBella]

Thanks for sharing those scenarios K9. I have little experience with dog aggression and like to know how to deal with it. Will have to remember to cut off air supply..

I'm sure the BC still thanks you for ending the whippings.

[Erny]

For the record discipline is based on positive reinforcement (reward) and negative reinforcement (punishment), not abuse.

Deanne ..... imagine a dog that is threatening you with some pretty serious, teeth gnashing aggression. Would you please give us an example of the form of negative reinforcement you would apply in that instance? Lets assume you don't have a lead or collar on the dog.

Laws of learning = every behaviour has a consequence. I don't condone hitting/punching dogs either, but if a dog has a go at me in aggression, and I think it will benefit by showing the consequence, even if that's a punch/whack (in the absence of being able to do much else) then I will react that way. Not violence - but catching the dog in the act - at least I'd have a chance of nipping the behaviour in the bud, right there and then. IMO, that would be better for not only me, but also for the dog.

Violence does not solve issues, especially in an aggressive dog.

In the context of what this thread is about (ie punched a dog for re-directing aggression to the owner), I think your use of the word "violence" is anthropomorphic, or at least somewhat hysterical. However, in direct response to your statement above, whether issues are solved or not depends on why the dog was aggressive.

[Nekhbet]

Deanne you dont know Scope so give it a rest.

its just a tough patch she's going through. I am not going to post her private details on a public forum its not your business.

She has tried and tried, but Keisha bumped and then bit her. Yup stress made her react the way she did but a dog that has been training respect has thrown it out the window and bit her owner. Hudson is meant to be the human aggressive dog but Keisha is being the pain in the butt.

My dog bit me once. I had a piece of chicken in my hand and it decided to grab my hand as well as the chicken, clamp on and nearly draw blood. I hit in in the face. He didnt cower, snap or develop fear for it. He looked me in the face and let go of my hand slowly, never repeated it.

When you feel that pressure pressing on your hand, knowing it has the capability to crush your bones what would you do? How else do you assert the fact he is not allowed this behaviour and have a usable hand?

My old GSD bit my face, grabbed me in the face with her mouth when I was a kid and left tooth marks on my forehead. I grabbed her and bit her on the ear hard while I was bawling in pain. For the rest of her life she never bit again. Am I a bad owner for doing this? Maybe I need anger management? She was my girl and loved me and me only. She respected no other person and was my baby til the day she was PTS from cancer.

If you learned anything from that degree you keep waving then know that people pushecd to the limits in every facet of their lives will do some extreme things. They are not proud of it but without support people can lash out at constant irritants. Scope puts her dogs welfare first and I am satisfied they are properly looked after. She has taken dogs that are high drive, and high maintenance. I repeat myself, Kaisha is having a complete life overhaul and is having a moan and retaliate about it. Its in the nature of some working breeds to act this way.

I thought psychologists were meant to be understanding. But I suppose in the words of one Dr my Mum sent me to 'I heard you had quite a few issues. I enjoy a challenge". Go find someone else to taunt will you and let Scope heal.

Edited June 23, 2006 by Nekhbet

[Erny]

That is why I say rehoming might be a good way to go given the amount of "stress' in her life. perhaps she has taken on more than she can handle.

Deanne - Scope has taken on two dogs each of which many people would not. Rehoming would be difficult, and if not for Scope, could possibly have been put to sleep by now. Yes - Scope could be seriously bitten by either one or the other. She knows that and works to the enth degree to not only avoid that but simultaneously to try to make it better. You may well have titled qualifications in human psychology, but Scope has a reasonably good grounding in the psychology of dogs .... after all, this is what the whole topic (and for the most part, the Dogzonline forum) is about. It's not about the appropriate or inappropriate interactions between two human beings, which would be more up your ally, perhaps. She has her own qualifications pursuant to a dog training course she undertook and continues to further her education with a view to finding answers for these problematic dogs.

I am still interested in reading your response to your idea of the appropriate and effective application of negative reinforcement in a situation where you are aggressed upon by a dog.

Edited June 23, 2006 by Erny