Scope Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 ok little background info... i have a female GSD and a male rotty... GSD was originally bought by a family who she was too boisterous for, was inadvertently reinforced for barking at the husband (he was scared of her and i know hit her on at least one occasion), wound up in a boarding kennel for about a year before i took her on... she has some mid-range aggression problems towards some humans and doesnt like other dogs at all... Rotty was bought from a pet shop by a fella who loved him to bits, spoilt him rotten, but was beaten up by the neighbours when noone was home... was re-homed to me because the guy who had him was moving interstate due to family commitments and the dog would have been a disaster waiting to happen where he was going... has severe human aggression problems to just about everyone except me... Rotty has been living in a pen for most of the time he has been with me, for his own safety as well as everyone else's.. GSD was an inside dog when i got him, seemed to accept him OK... on K9-Force's suggestion, i've been leaving the rotty out of his pen so they both have full run of the back yard (i would love to let them both inside the house as well but cant now i've moved, it's a rental with cream carpets and a mud puddle for a back yard :/ )... it took a few days for the heirachy disputes to settle and initially i would put the rotty back in his pen at dinner time, then let him out again about half an hour later... now i feed them separately but at the same time, they will both stay in a drop next to each other, focus on me, wait for however long i make them, recall to me (at the same time), then go eat their own dinner... there's no fights over food or anything and my relationship with the rotty has improved a great deal now that he has more freedom... i can do so many more things with him without him getting defensive... it was actually quite funny tonight, they ended up on opposite sides to normal when they put themselves in their drop stay, and when i recalled them they crashed into each other then ran off to each other's food bowls and started eating... so i roused on them both and theny recalled to me and then ran off to their own bowls... lol... but i digress... i have been doing prey drive training with the rotty (will start with the shep later, one dog at a time is enough)... and it's also helped a lot with him... i have to get my OH to walk the shepherd when i do, though, or she howls the house down... the shepherd is the main problem here, she is starting to annoy the sh*t out of me, because every time i go outside (and i do try to spend a fair bit of time with them every day), she starts to whinge and whine and carry on, and snap at the rotty, who usually ignores her now... and i'm really not sure what to do because nothing i have tried so far seems to work... i try to give them both attention at the same time but the shepherd wont sit down and be happy to be patted, she has to keep harrasing the rotty... even if he wanders off elsewhere and she's the only one getting attention she still wants to keep annoying him... i can get her to drop next to me but she keeps whinging and sits there quivering and crying and wont shut up... i've tried giving them both food treats at the same time and it doesnt seem to have much effect either, the rotty will inhale his tidbits but the shep hardly seems interested in them... and i am ashamed to admit that she redirected onto me when she bumped into me and i snapped and punched her quite hard in the side a few times, and all she did was give me a baleful look and keep whinging... i feel really bad about doing it but it seems not even inflicting pain will make her shut up... it only happens when i'm in the back yard... and now even if i put the rotty back in his pen (because i will if he's barking at the horses over the back fence in the middle of the night... grr) she will still run around like a fool and cry and b*tch and carry on... it's starting to annoy me because i can see myself losing my temper with her again, which i really dont want to do, but i dont know what else to do, and it makes me less likely to want to spend time with them outside... it's getting me down and any help at all would be appreciated... if anyone feels this should be in training go ahead and move it... thanks in advance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shekhina Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I know you're probably looking for constructive advice but punching your dog is just NOT on, for ANY reason...that's abuse, you abused your dog. It is NEVER OK to lose your temper like that at your dog, if you're hitting her the only one getting anything out of it is you, and hitting is not healthy anger management...go scream into a pillow or something It seems like these dogs piss you off a lot, most posts I read from you you're getting really angry and annoyed with them...maybe they're not the dogs for you? Donning my flame suit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybeece Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Seconding shekhina...please don't ever hit your dog! It sounds like you've been doing a really good job with them so far, but don't let your anger get the better of you as they'll both be able to sense it emanating from you. Frustration gets you no-where with dogs. And yes, why perservere if they upset you that much? If the GSD makes you so mad you feel the need to punch her, and are afraid of it happening again well I have to wonder why you want to keep her. To me it sounds like she might have some seperation or anxiety problems but I'm no behaviouralist. Maybe she'd be better off as an only dog with one master who can be her everything? How much time do you spend with her one on one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakti Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Since the training you did with K9 helped so much the first time, have you asked his advice again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Not sure if this will help as my dogs are different . . . but I understand your frustration. Zoe is my problem dog. Dog aggressive and possessive of toys/treats/people/her favourite dog around other dogs that she knows and is normally OK with. Great with people. I have to watch her if I try to give all the dogs treats at once as sometimes she will growl etc. It took some time and work to get to the point that I could go out and give treats and she wouldn't growl - for a while Diesel wouldn't come to get treats if Zoe was out because he was afraid of her! Actually I'm not sure what helped to settle that down Zoe and Diesel run together, Kaos the pup is separate unless supervised. They get separate training and walks, and the occasional training session in the yard/house together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaves Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I know you took in both dogs, but maybe you should look at rehousing the shepherd with someone else. Hudson seems to be doing great, but your shep seems to be getting anxious about something. I was told by a trainer when my female mal was attacking my other dog a shepxrotti to remove her from teh situation for 24 hours. He said to use the garage or shed, somehwere secure and safe for her to be, have water but no food in there, and put her in the place. When you get her out in 24 hours if she attacks the other dog, repeat the exercise. I did not do this as i felt it was not the right thing for us but maybe this would help you. She came from an abusive home, you know that, so please don;t hit her. If you feel the need to, find her another home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rugerfly Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Iv'e punched mine a million times....if they can run into me, i can run into them....sorry, but i can see where scope is coming from....we arent talking about beating them to death here...at least we dont act like their mothers or pack leaders and bite them....lol.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chell Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Ok my suggestions would be firstly speak to steve again. secondly, what you are describing about her behaviour, ie being in the drop but quivering and whining could be her going into a drive ( Im guessing pack drive in this case) that she cant control and becomes overdriven. Its hard to say obviously without seeing it, but Ive seen dogs do this heaps, a trigger, perhaps the sight of you sets her into it and she isnt getting satisfactions and boils over. Just curious has this started to become worse since you started drive training with hudson?? I think she is competing for her bit of you. I know it is very hard to train 2 dogs at once, but it sounds like she may need it more than hudson at the moment, break up your time and devote seperate sessions to each of them one on one. Lastly, please never hit your dog, walk away cool down and go inside, come back out when your calm. She will counter you with physical force because this is what you are teaching her by getting physical. You want to be the pack leader, so LEAD by being firm, fair but calm. If she has gone into overdrive no type of physical force is going to get thru to her, you will only be hurting the bond that you have. Good luck and let us know how you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybeece Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Iv'e punched mine a million times....if they can run into me, i can run into them....sorry, but i can see where scope is coming from....we arent talking about beating them to death here...at least we dont act like their mothers or pack leaders and bite them....lol.. Um, what? punched, punch·ing, punch·es: 1. To hit with a sharp blow of the fist. 1. A blow with the fist. You do this to your dogs? Why???? Look, I'm sure everyone rough-houses with their dogs from time to time, but a punch is a little more serious and should certainly not be used as a correction if that's what you're implying by comparing it to a bite from a mother dog or pack animal. I'm also happy to admit that if my dog gets in the way I keep walking to teach him to move, so he'll get a knee in the side from time to time, but it's nothing like a closed fist blow and not for correction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shekhina Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 I'm also happy to admit that if my dog gets in the way I keep walking to teach him to move, so he'll get a knee in the side from time to time, but it's nothing like a closed fist blow and not for correction. Agreed. If my dogs don't move when I want to walk in their pathway they get walked into, not kicked, not punched, just I don't stop moving. They soon learn they're to get out of the way. The roughest I get with my dogs is a good scruffing and a loud growl if they're being total shiites and repeatedly doing the wrong thing, but I would NEVER hit my dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaves Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 I agree. When i was sharing a house with a couple of people, one of them took a branch to my mal becasue she was being agressive with my other dog. Hwen i saw it i wen t ballistic. I have NEVER EVER hit my dog. Yes i have walked into my dog when it has crossed my path. What he couldn't understand is that the next time he went in the ba k yard she 'grabbed' him on the arm in her jaws as a warning. He was livid but as far as i was concerned she was provocked into that behavious by him. You do not want a dog who reacts like that. He had only hit her once and she remembered and reacted the next time she saw him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animalsluvbree Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 i have two dogs, a silkie and a sheltie and the sheltie is kind of like your shepherd in as much as she will push harry out of the way to get to me, she will barge him, bite him, and if it looks like he is coming for cuddles or attention from me, she will get there first, its no where near as bad as your situation, but i understand you frustration. As harry is the eldest dog and above grace in hierarchy (well in my mind he is, but im not so sure grace sees it that way...lol) i try to make sure harry gets dinner first (they are both put in stays or drops of something) and then grace, harry gets treats first, i dont know if this will help. good luck.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shekhina Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 As harry is the eldest dog and above grace in hierarchy (well in my mind he is, but im not so sure grace sees it that way...lol) i try to make sure harry gets dinner first (they are both put in stays or drops of something) and then grace, harry gets treats first, i dont know if this will help. good luck.... Shouldn't you be reinforcing THEIR pack order? If between them Grace is higher up you should be reinforcing that otherwise you're just confusing them and causing those issues I had that problem with my two for a little while because the Rottweiler was maturing and looking to head to the top of the dogs. Rotty was displaying to me that he was above the GSD in the pack order, so I reinforce that and it's harmony again in the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animalsluvbree Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 (edited) perhaps i should reinforce grace as higher above, i suppose i am putting human feelings into the situation and feel sorry for harry, as he has never been top dog (our last dog rover was very much top dog).. and so i am trying to compensate for it....... good point... i suppose my thinking was/is that harry is the elder dog, was here first (before grace) and should deserve some repect???? Edited June 20, 2006 by animalsluvbree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swain Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Scope, i can relate to your frustration. I hope that you can find a way that you can all live happily. Having troubled animals can be very tiresome, mentally and physically. Do you have a partner that can maybe help with one of the dogs? I find being able to share the problem can make a world of difference. If there is no one to help perhaps it would be kinder for the dog and yourself if she had a new home. She obviously has some ingrained issues that will need heaps of work to change. Don't beat yourself up about loosing control. No one is perfect.........unlike humans, our pets seem to be a lot more forgiving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animalsluvbree Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 (edited) Don't beat yourself up about loosing control. No one is perfect.........unlike humans, our pets seem to be a lot more forgiving. nicely put.......... edited to redirect my comment better Edited June 20, 2006 by animalsluvbree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scope Posted June 20, 2006 Author Share Posted June 20, 2006 i didnt come here for a flaming, i came here for advice... i have allready said that i feel terrible for hitting my dog but it was something i did without thinking after she redirected onto me, she ran into me and turned around and snapped at me, caught me, and she didnt break skin but it HURT, and i lashed out without stopping to think because i was having a shitty enough day without her being a pain in the arse... she's never done it before and i've never done it before and i dont want it to happen again... yes most of my posts may be about my dogs irritating me but everything frigging irritates me atm, the house i'm living in, the fact i have little to no work, the fact my bank account is now overdrawn by $1100 because i had to pay the rent... i'm trying to look after my dogs because they do provide me with some happiness in all the shit i'm going through but it seems now they're just adding to it as well... and no i'm not here asking for sympathy i just want a little understanding and a bit of advice... separating them doesnt work just results in the shep being even more of a pain when i let the rotty out again... and if it's the shep i separate then she screams the neighbourhood down... she doesnt have separation anx. because she doesnt care about me going inside or going out... but if she thinks she's being excluded then all hell breaks loose... or if she thinks the rotty has anything to do with anything then she just goes stupid... anyway i'm still tired and shitty so i'll shut up now.. i dont know why i even bother posting here some days............... thanks to those who didnt flame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybeece Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 If you don't want honest answers, don't ask questions. I thought all the responses were polite and flame free, so maybe you do need a little more sleep? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shekhina Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 perhaps i should reinforce grace as higher above, i suppose i am putting human feelings into the situation and feel sorry for harry, as he has never been top dog (our last dog rover was very much top dog).. and so i am trying to compensate for it....... good point... i suppose my thinking was/is that harry is the elder dog, was here first (before grace) and should deserve some repect???? As you said, you're putting human emotion into it, dogs don't work like that. If Harry is a submissive dog then let him be submissive under Grace, don't shit Grace off because you're not reinforcing her and you'll be making things difficult for Harry. I felt a bit like you did when I first saw the signs that Kovu my GSD was submitting to Daegon the Rotty, but that's just the way dogs work, Kovu isn't any less happy...infact both dogs are far more content now that they know where they stand in the pack and it's reinforced to them. If you don't want honest answers, don't ask questions. I thought all the responses were polite and flame free, so maybe you do need a little more sleep? Yes, I thought we were all pretty polite as well, a LOT more things could have been said but I think we were all rather well behaved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scope Posted June 20, 2006 Author Share Posted June 20, 2006 things are all a matter of perception and when things are aimed at you they're often seen in an entirely different light to what a bystander would... i dont need to be told off for hitting my dog, i'm allready beating myself up about it, thus coming here to ask for help........ just about every time i post here i end up in an argument so f*** it, i'm not going to bother coming back... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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