Jed Posted November 9, 2002 Author Share Posted November 9, 2002 (edited) . Edited December 4, 2011 by Jed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest D Posted November 11, 2002 Share Posted November 11, 2002 Wow Jed, That kinda complicates things doesn't it? Taking all precautions and taking noe - it still happens. There is no apparent consistency here it seems... What a surprise too...about the pregnancy! I'm so sorry about your pup...this is a terrible thing that mother nature is doing, but I guess there must be a good reason for it? Have all of these stiffies from different litters been the weaklings? It must be so frustrating for you all. Jed, I hope your other battler hangs in there. Good luck with everything, D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted November 12, 2002 Share Posted November 12, 2002 Jed This sucks Im sorry to hear that your cav baby went out this way as well. My two pups that are left in the litter are extremely healthy and thriving Still in the loungeroom as Im too frightened to take my eyes off them although Im pretty confident that whatever the hell is going on has missed these two. I suffered a bit over the decision to dock their tails as I didnt want anything to stress them but the way I do the tails with a band they dont even say ouch so I went ahead. Val Did the people who healped you with your litter have any problems with stiffness? Or was this something different. What bothers me most is that Ive been breeding dogs for a very long time and Ive watched probably hundreds of litters being whelped and reared both mine and other peoples and Ive never ever seen this thing happen before.Members of my family have bred corgis for more than 60 years many of whom were related to this bitch and they have never encountered it either. Im not sure what the questions are to ask about this just yet, but Jed has been around awhile and I would describe her as an experienced breeder so why does she see this condition around the same time as I do and several other people do and never before either? Different breeds in different environments with the same symptoms This is certainly a very strange thing.Im not finished with it yet. When I get a minute in my crazy life Im going to attempt to put together a questionaire for anyone who has experienced this to fill in so we can have a go at coming at it from another angle. No my stiff puppies werent sickly at birth , for the first 2 days I could see no difference between them and the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted November 12, 2002 Author Share Posted November 12, 2002 My cavvie stiffie was a little smaller than the others at birth, but, to my eyes, within normal parameters. On the day he died, I thought he had fallen a little behind, which I why I put him on the teat (I avoid hand feeding them as much as possible). However, the white boxer was in the middle range of size. I don't weigh my puppies until I worm them - they are either doing ok or not, and I find it a drag to be weighing them all and recording information, when I can see whether they are ok or not. I am also a bit of a worrier, and when I begin weighing them, I worry if one is down a little today. Some puppies grow quickly, and some slowly, but they seem to work out in the end. Sometimes the biggest pup born ends up as the biggest adult, sometimes not. And, in case you think I am slack, I didn't weigh my (human) babies regularly either. I could see they were growing, and as someone once told me, the best way to see if a kid has had enough is to check out their tummies! It works with pups too! I wondered about vac. Poppy was vac. as a pup, and in 1996, and 2000. C4. I don't vac. my dogs every year, I don't think they need it, and parvo is more a puppy disease than an adult disease, and being out and about should confer immunity anyhow. I think a questionaire is an excellent idea - if we had the info in some sort of order, perhaps we could make some sense of it. Yes, Steve, you are right - this is something which first occurred with my boxer litter from this bitch. I began breeding in about 1962, for a few years, stopped till 74, bred again until about 81, stopped until about 90, and have been doing it ever since. I am so pleased I brought this up - I don't know whether there is an answer/cure, but at least we dont all feel so isolated. I wondered if perhaps these stiff pups have some brain problem, and went stiff quite often, without us seeing it, and every time they went stiff, there was a little more damage to the brain (Wundahoo suggested seizures, and they are that, but why?) and so on until the pup died. I can see lots of holes in this argument, but I can see lots of holes in EVERY argument. Now, why did this bitch, in her latter years, produce 1 stiffy! I checked her records - she has had 4 litters, at 2, 3, 4, and 5, and it is over 2 years since she had her last litter. No stiffies. We lost 2 pups altogether from previous litters - both because she chewed the cord too enthusiastically. Her daughter has had 3 litters - no stiffies - but she has had 2 pups in 1 litter born without bladders, and 1 in another which obviously had a huge heart defect, and died of heart failure at 6 days. Vet says genetic. All her other pups have been ok, and none of them - even the ones which died, did the stiff thing - unless I missed it, but I tend to hover more over sick puppies. Incidentally, the daughter's son has sired litters - no stiffies - as far as anyone knows. I asked around, but no one had seen any. The other sister has only had 1 litter. No problems at all. The more we investigate this, the more confusing it becomes. We need a vet doing a PhD to research it for us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted November 17, 2002 Share Posted November 17, 2002 Ive been poking around and come across some info on oxytocin How it reacts with the natural assimilation and production of arginine [even though it has arginine in it] and the possibility that the hormone may deplete and clean out the colostrum from the bitch milk too quickly for the pups to get enough in . So the next question is. Did everyone that has had stiff pups use oxcytocin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted November 17, 2002 Author Share Posted November 17, 2002 Uh - no! I have used Oxytocin on 2 bitches (after vet. advice). Neither had stiff pups - the stiff pups were all from bitches with no intervention/chemical assistance nothing. Oxytocin or an oxtocin like substance is produced by the body though at whelping time. Incidentally, the 3 little survivors in the Cavvy litter are all well and thriving - as is their old mum - she's having a great time! She's missing her daily bones though, and keeps trying to sneak old ones inside!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted November 17, 2002 Share Posted November 17, 2002 Well there goes that idea ! Worth a try though My 2 little corgi girls are fit and healthy as well They look like little wombats. Really cute. Oxcytocin is produced natuarally by the body and is usually stimulated when the labour starts,the little guys start to suck and when she licks them clean but even though this is exactly whats in the injection there are side effects because of the size of the dose and rapidity that its administer.Natural oxcytocin comes in slowly but the injection brings the milk in with a bang. [ 16-11-2002, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: Steve ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted November 17, 2002 Author Share Posted November 17, 2002 Maybe we all have to believe in re-incarnation. these pups have not quite lived out their previous life on earth - obviously pts a day or two before they were due, by caring owners. So, they have come back for a few days to fulfill their khama! They go stiff when they hear the call from the rainbow bridge, because they are listening - and they depart soon after! (Sorry, but it's about as much use as everything else we have come up with.) Perhaps it is some sort of brain thing, or something to do with brain stimulation .... ???????????????????????????????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bell Posted November 17, 2002 Share Posted November 17, 2002 i used oxytocin on my girl, she had one shot after the last pup was born, the stiff puppy i had did its thing on day 3, and then we had to start stella on oxytocin injections two days after that to help with milk production. So i am not sure if this helps your theory steve, or just confuses it more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ange Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 I just read on a US shih tzu breeder's site that oxytocin is used to dispel retained placenta's, and to help bring on milk production - this lady gives her dog 2 teaspoons of beer to bring on milk production and swears by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ange Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 OK, I found something which may or may not help. Could these puppies dying have anything to do with Dog Colic or Gastric Torsion??? I just found a link on the web (haven't read all of it yet) About Gastric Torsion affecting tall skinny breeds such as the boxer St Bernard etc. Here's the link http://www.bestfriends.org/members/vetnotes/stomachflips.htm Might help - most likely a waste of your time though LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ange Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Found another link about Gastric Torsion http://www.canismajor.com/dog/bloat.html It affect's breeds with Deep Chests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted November 19, 2002 Author Share Posted November 19, 2002 Thanks for looking, Ange, but torsion would have shown up at p.m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Ange, Any info is good and thanks for going out of your way but my girl is a corgi the dead opposite to tall and skinny and the symptoms werent the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ange Posted November 19, 2002 Share Posted November 19, 2002 Well I'm gonna try and find links to as many "ASK A VET" sites, and list them here, and whoever wants to go thru this post and write to them showing what we know it isn't, and asking them to help us figure out what the cause is. http://www.animalnews.com/vet/ http://www.hometownannapolis.com/pets_askavet.html http://www.critterconnection.com/aavet/vetdogs.html http://www.vet4petz.com/askthevet.htm http://www.purinaone.com/online_vet_dog_as...sp?vetChooser=1 http://www.bigyellowdog.com/askavet/default.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 I don't know if anything will come of it, but I contacted a gentleman at Melbourne University today, (Attached to Werribee Teaching Vet Hospital) He's agreed to have a look at everything on this thread and give an opinion. Keep fingers crossed. If we can just get a direction to look to, that would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ange Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 That's Great Jim, Maybe they'll find out what it is, and help everyone either prevent it, or at least find a cure for the poor little stiff pups, so they'll have a nice normal life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tothemax Posted November 29, 2002 Share Posted November 29, 2002 found the earlier discussion on this - seems a few people are of the opinion that the condition is caused by low blood sugars however has anyone had any further info as to what causes this (i.e. does it come from "Mum") or how it can be prevented - having lost two successive litters of Staffordshire Bull Terriers to this it would be nice to be able to do all possible to prevent ourselves and others going through the heartbreak. Pups given glucose at birth has been suggested as a preventative, but I would like to go back a bit further if possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted November 29, 2002 Share Posted November 29, 2002 I gave my pups glucose at birth --- made no difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted November 30, 2002 Author Share Posted November 30, 2002 That's excellent Jim - thank you for that. I feel this should concern all breeders, as there are no specifics. Chrisf - my vet also though hypoglycaemia - but Steve has disproved that one. Incidentally, my 3 cavvies are fine. The little one is still little (a petite little girl) and they are all little porkers. Their menopausal mum loves them dearly. I have never seen a bitch shed so much - it's like an indian massacre, with clumps everywhere - not just a few hairs. The odd thing is that her coat is still excellent. That wasn't a question, that's just her - there's hair everywhere - in the sink, the vac is full, on my clothes, wafting through the air - there's enough to stuff cushions. Never mind, she's happy, and hell, I spend enough time riding the broom, it's a change to use it on the floor! :D [ 30-11-2002, 03:21 AM: Message edited by: Jed ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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