Stiff Pups

[Max]

Nothing like a real man boys.. What's the use in sitting down and crying on your own.. A real man would sit down and cry with you of course.. My man loves quiche.. I dropped my bundle the other day, over a doggie matter.. Dave was right, untill he see me in a state and that was the end of him....Real men iron to :D

[Jim]

"Real men iron too????"

Oh Shit...I'm in trouble then!

Jed, I trust you'll let us know the results of the PM ASAP. This thing has got me real bugged. There has to be an answer. Sounds like there are several cases. Not just a couple.

Jim

[Jed]

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Edited December 4, 2011 by Jed

[Bob]

Jed,

As a diabetic I try to learn about hypo & hyperglycaemia, it just seems important from my perspective.

I'm just trying to think "HOW???" Is the problem with the bitch or the pups.

Questions with the bitch. Milk sample, does it have the right amount of lactose in the milk for the pups? Pups that don't feed often enough can die due to malnutrition but they do not all demonstrate the stiffening that is apparent in these cases. This makes me think that it has to be more than not suckling recently.

Pup problem, to break down sugars insulin is secreted in the pancreas. Could there an overproduction of insulin in your white pups?

If the pups are dying as a result of hypoglycaemia it must be more than a lack of feeding. It has to be diet (ie, what they are getting from Mum), or pancreatic (insulin production) problems within the pups surely.

Any other ideas???? We gotta find out why!! Not just identify the cause of death.

Bob

Wurroit Bedlingtons

The Wolves in Sheeps Clothing.

[Jim]

I totally agree Bob, and you've raised some valid points.

Hypoglycemia is something Chihuahua breeders live with fairly regularly. Almost always, with the tiny tinies. Seldom with a good sized pup.

If Hypo is so often associated with toys, how come none of the examples are a toy breed?

Yes, after the initial loose lethargic rag doll type of behaviour comes like a muscle spasm. Head thrown back, legs out stiff, eyes rolled back. Is this what you're all describing with your stiffys?

What about the other PM done that returned a prognosis of pneumonia? Doesn't gel with Hypo. Where did pneumonia come from?

Some stiffies went on to later die of kidney failure? Yes..that fits the hypo theory, but I'm just not happy with it.

There's more here somewhere. We're missing it.

I have limited time right now, but I'll go over all the posts again. I'm searching for common denominators. Everyone welcome to do the same.

Anyone else reading this who has experienced something similar but hasn't posted?

Please do now.

Jim

[Steve]

Jim said

Yes, after the initial loose lethargic rag doll type of behaviour comes like a muscle spasm. Head thrown back, legs out stiff, eyes rolled back. Is this what you're all describing with your stiffys?

No Jim thats not the way I would describe what Im talking about.There was no initial loose ragdoll type behaviour. The pups appear to be thriving and perfectly healthy one minute and to all intents and purposes dead as, the next. No head thrown back no eyes rolled back but then mine were too little at first to have their eyes open.

I had one pup that did this 3 or 4 times over about 10 days Its kind of like they just freeze in the position they are in there is no twitching or spasming as such. Its like they have been literally turned to stone in the blink of an eye.No head thrown back just the way it was before the stiffness occurred.

When they just instantly come back to life they sem to be O.K. most do deteriorate after that though. Also there is no heart beat when they are like this. Ive been talking to my husband about this and he reminded me that we did have 2 others that lived. These didnt appear to be different to the others at 8 weeks.They are 4 years old now and live happy healthy lives.

I wasnt happy with the diagnosis of hypothermia and Im not satisfied with the hyperglycemia either. In 32 years Ive only ever seen one bitches puppies do this and like Jed it was more than one litter. Obviously its something to do with the mums and Im having a hard time understanding how this could be something to do with the pups feeding as they all appeared plump and in no way dehydrated. Sure some of these puppies did get sickly and most died but they didnt have any symptoms of sickliness with they turned into instant statues.I took the bitch out of my breeding program as I wasnt sure it wasnt genetic but she is still here and very lively and healthy , hasnt been even off colour a day in her life. Nor have any of her offspring her Mum or her dad.Until Jed posted I thought I was the only one that had ever witnessed this but its pretty apparent that its more common than any of us thought.

Problem is if the vets are just guessing and the PM is inconclusive and there is no evidence to point toward one thing or another, without bloodtests on a live puppy at the time its going to be a hard ask to be sure one way or the other.

[Jed]

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Edited December 4, 2011 by Jed

[Steve]

Jed,

I thought it might be the Mum only because Ive only ever seen this in 2 different litters with one Mum but like you she has had a litter with no problems and the majority of her pups have not gone stiff either unless they did when I wasnt looking.Your experience has only happened with one bitch as well so one way or another your boxer bitch and my corgi bitch must have something in common.

Like you I couldnt think of anything that was different and ours was different sires as well.

Based on the fact that we've had reports of this from people with all different breeds it sure is curious.

Im considering now giving my little Mum another litter but like you I still feel there's some gaps in here somewhere.I took her out of my breeding program because I didnt want to breed what ever the problem might be in to future generations but it doesnt appear that what ever this is runs in families.If ever I see it again Ill do the blood pulling , no problem.

[Guest Debbie Lashford]

This sounds a lot like what a lot of Toy breeders call SUGAR DROP (hypoglycaemia), but I dont recall hearing of it in such young pups. I know that with older pups they always keep Nutrigel or one of the generic products the same on hand and squeeze a bit into the pups mouth, they come right so quickly it amazes you. Maybe someone on one of the Toy lists may have an answer to this one. Some breeders I know are always constantly stressing to puppy buyers the importance of tiny frequent meals in the little ones to avoid this occuring. The pups grow out of this and continue on normally.

[Guest D]

Hi Jed,

Now this might be a real long shot...but I thought you might like to do a search of this web site, and if you can't find anything...perhaps you might want to ask them about your pup. (there is an area for submitting questions).

Like I said a long shot, but maybe something...?

heres the link - and I hope it works..

http://www.medicine.ucsd.edu/vet_neuromuscular/

I was thinking along the lines of neurotransmitters (specifically acetylcholine)...incase you were wondering how I got to this site LOL

Good luck, and sorry about your bubs.

D

[ 01-09-2002, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: D ]

[Jed]

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Edited December 4, 2011 by Jed

[Wundahoo]

Hi D,

I liked the site...very interesting.

The neurotransmitter idea is intriguing, but I dont think that what has been described in these posts involves such things as acetylcholine receptors as this sort of problem almost always entails weakness rather than spasm or seizure-like activity. The classic (and probably best known) acetylcholine receptor problem is of course Myasthenia Gravis...the disease that Aristotle Onassis made famous and was the cause of his heavy lidded eyes....and eventually his death. He literally couldnt keep his eyes open as the muscles that raised his eyelids were so weakened by the disease, which progressed to the point that he could no longer breath unaided because of of failing respiratory muscles.

Usually, neurotransmitter related problems are exacerbated by physical exercise and again it doesnt seem to fit this picture.

But one never knows...and until it is looked at carefully and a significant number of cases are able to be examined we cant really say what we are looking at.....or even whether each person is seeing exactly the same problem. As I have said in an earlier post, there are a number of possible causes for this type of seizure-like occurence in very young pups. It is clear that a few of us have observed the same type of thing, but are these episodes ALL caused by the SAME problem. My puppy was definitely one which had a cardiac vessel anomaly, while Jed's "Whitey" has had that possiblity discounted.

I think that it is now clear that such an episode in a very young pup is often a signal of a serious and possibly catastrophic outcome, whatever the cause. Hopefully we can figure out what are the more frequent causes and work out a strategy that might enable a better outcome for such affected pups.

I guess that we need to look at all possibilities and hopefully, those breeders who lose pups affected in this fashion could have P.M.'s done by Vets who were specifically looking for a particular set of problems. This might even involve a collaborative effort by us all, to work out a protocol for such a P.M. in order to ensure that each possibility is checked in a systematic and consistant fashion.

It's really important that we keep the ideas coming!!!

[ 01-09-2002, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: Wundahoo ]

[Jim]

Jed...In answer to your question

Jim, with chihuahuas, I believe it is common practice to give them glucose if they have a fit, because they are hypoglycaemic?? Do most of them live?

Depends on age and size Jed.

An adult in otherwise good health? Usually not a problem. Survival is the norm.

Younger pups? Maybe 50/50

In Chi's, the tiny tinies are most susceptable.

In the very tinies a Hypo attack is basically the beginning of the end, but we have one here now as living proof, not always. Now 2 yrs old.

We treat with a dallop of pure honey if the pup is big enough to get your finger into their mouth. Otherwise, disolved in water from the tea kettle and syringed in.

Main thing is do it QUICK. Then, they zonk. Wipes them out totally. Let them sleep but check constantly for awareness and dehydration.

Don't ask me how she does it, but my darling wife can now actually pick the susceptable ones.

Every so often she says something like, "That pup isn't right"

I ask why, what are you seeing?

Answer???

"I don't know. It's just not right."

Sure enough, within the week, "Jim, grab the honey!"

Cheers

Jim

[Guest D]

Hi Wunadoo,

Like I said - a LONG shot, but given we are considering all possibilities, then I thought I'd throw it in for interest.

I've just recently read up on this stuff (not in animals), and it sorta jumped out. Acetylcholine does cause muscle weakness, but through paralysis - shuts the heart down and suffocates. It affects various aspects of the nervous system...hence the muscle activity something is shutting down their systems). Its also connected to various illnesses and Parkinsosn's is one of them (more spasmodic than a weakness). I thought that perhaps it could be an issue linked with another problem ? Who knows - just another wild theory LOL.

As I said, it might be worth asking these people if they had heard of this - which appears to be quite common afterall.

D

[Max]

I sure hope an answer can be found Jed.. Let us know the outcome. It very strange, but at the same time very interesting.. :D

[Steve]

I got a phone call tonight from a boxer breeder looking to buy one of my puppies for breeding and we were chatting away when she told me of a terrible problem she had with her last litters and she lost 20 puppies [ 10 in each litter]and the symptoms were the same as ours. Stiff as boards , then back to life and over about a week they all died. Her vet didnt know what it was either and suggested a virus.

[Jed]

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Edited December 4, 2011 by Jed

[Steve]

Thanks for that Jed It just gets more interesting. I cant imagine why one bitch would be deficient in calcium and no others and when I think of the symptoms associated with calcium problems its hard to see that this was a problem that the bitch had. But if it worked its a better result than any of us have had so far I wonder whether the fluid was an amino acid base.I just dont get why it would show as this and not eclampsia or any other of the usual calcium probs.

Ill go away and think on this. But I would like to know what else was in that injection.

[Guest diamonchi]

re chi pups

i use calcium sandoz for pregnant & lactating bitches ans also give a small dose to puppies. this litter so far have had no problems even my tiny girl who at 7 weeks is 480 g i also add rasberry cordial to the pups water .this seems to keep their glucose levels up .

my last litters i had 3 /7 pups with sugardrop .after treating with the glucose syrupand adding cordial to a bowl water did not lose any. as i am new to chi breeding i listen to some great people who pass on their experience and knowledge on which i grasp eagerly

this topic is curious and if your "stiff pups" are actual "sugar drop' pups this seems to be more common than just toys.Their did not seem to be any signs that were visible befor my pups crashed when found one seemed to be in a coma .he came round after some honey on the tongue but was weak and disorientated after wards.i fedd him with a syringe more cordial/honey water within a couple hour he was eating 7 normal again. this happend a couple of times .

[Guest D]

This really is fascinating stuff. I can't beleive that so many people here have experienced this, and yet no study has been done to determine just what the cause is?

Surely there is a curious vet out there who wants to do a study?

I wonder how many other people out there would respond if an advertisement/article was put in a dog mag asking people to report this phenomenon? I think the numbers would be surprising.

D