Jim Posted September 21, 2002 Share Posted September 21, 2002 I received a fax from my vet today. Nothing earth shattering but I thought I'd share it with you. I'd given her a printout of our discussion with the words, "Here's a mystery for you" Sorta the vet version of a good Agatha Christie Novel. I quote: italics are her own words Bold is quoted from text Dear Jim Some ideas from an article on Fading puppy & kitten syndrome. Puppy/kitten losses during the first 12 weeks of life usually approximate 15 - 40% Causes include congenital problems, teratogenic effects, not always obvious of hormone/antibiotic contamination of environment generally &infectious diseases. Bacterial= Staph, E.Coli, Klebsiella, Strep, Pseudomonas, Pasteurella Etc all of above often present on skin, bowel or vagina Viral=Parvo, Corona, Herpes, Adeno, Calici Congenital problems include the obvious like cleft palate = diaphragmatic hernia = kidney troubles but also microoanatomic = biochemical anamalies like citrullaineamia)...I think "Wundahoo" has the right idea. The cause of the "Seizure" can be found but can take several tests etc. With so many things waiting to attack the pup it's a wonder any survive - I wonder if the fit causes the Hypoglycaemia by using up available glucose stores so....common factor is secondary hypolglycaemia ...inciting cause is variable? Do some of these pups get sepsis, hepatitis, liver damage hypogly and as liver regenerates with age they recover? She's obviously thinking about it, and when I was last in, one of her nurses asked if anything further had come up on the forum, so she has all her staff wondering as well. I have only one question...no time to ask my vet directly. What's a diaphragmatic hernia? Anyone know? Interesting on top of the discussions elsewhere on hernias. Cheers Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted September 21, 2002 Author Share Posted September 21, 2002 (edited) . Edited December 4, 2011 by Jed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.A.H. Posted September 21, 2002 Share Posted September 21, 2002 Steve I am getting worried, always tense when I mate a bitch but I seem to have both girls going now, thought for sure I would miss out on one--now, do I rush for a colostrum shot when pups come? then have a syringe ready with honey and ?or raspberry water just in case? The worst I've encountered to date--touch wood is a deformed but alive pup and a dead one and one that mother rejected and died in 22 hrs, three different litters over the 20 years all unconnected.I do the usual things to help mum and generally fall apart once she has them cuddled up dry warm and suckling--worst bit is if I have to supplement as I fear this, but I haven't had the problems and I am frightened of having a "turn"--as you say a bitch would be bereft and a trauma for breeder for sure!! What else should I stock, I will get liquid calcium as per, and bitch replacer milk????Think these will be the end for me, too much worry. Speaking of which--recall the accident mating and so forth? well Gayair Mr Hot Stuff--Chip--is very nice ,a milk choco boy I hope to show.We took him to a show witht he german girl,to see how he'd go, not been out of the yard, and he went out the end of the lead up at Horsham first,then he saw a Collie and upped the ante, later we were ringside and saw two labs lying down, Chip sent a power of cheek their way till they came walkies then d-o-w-n went the tail, he stood and they passed him, then confidence rushed back and there he was yelling again at their backs.Now this dog is showoff,likes people visiting and a nice toy. I felt his groin three days ago--one testicle--NO!I can't believe this, they were there at three months and he's over 5 now--next day ever so gently, ONE! Oh I groaned, went quiet for an hour, told Bob another failure, i'm never going back to showing it seems. Yesterday, I brushed and cuddled him and told him Mum would wait for another month in case, and as I practised stand with him on the table, i smoothed him--Goddammit I felt one slide off the top of the mate and roll into the correct sac--he has TWO NUTS and I am happy! Ever had that, I have not -I can't recall two lobbing into one chamber and leaving the other empty?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 21, 2002 Share Posted September 21, 2002 First of all Jed, if there is E Coli present in newborn pups thats no marker for a dirty environment. E Coli can infect the bitch at any time especially when her vagina is vlnerable like when she's on heat and it can also be in the male dogs penis E Coli is everywhere in the environment and yes it can be caused by someone not cleaning up their kennels but it can also be caused by other means. Its possible for the pups to infected with E coli while they are still in the womb or during birth.Even in a clean environment throughout the mating, pregnancy and whelping its almost impossible to stop as it can even be blown in on the wind. Ive been awake all night nutting through this and I dont believe that this is the cause of what was wrong with my pups There is about a hundred reasons for this all running around in my head but the main one is that usual symptoms of fading puppy regardless of the cause is runny poos especially if its E. Coli These puppies are born perfectly healthy and at least in my case they are whelped easily with no assistance etc. They appear to thrive and then comes the stiff puppy thing. Even in Jed's autopsy report the comment is that the dog is well nourished. So if its bacterial, viral, or Ecoli etc how come ?. Ive seen many fading puppies in my time and by the time they die Id hardly call them well nourished .I think once they get sick it would alow any naturally occuring bacteria to take over but first symproms is not runny poos. Ive been through each thing noted by the vet and I only thing I can find that suggests that this condition is symptomatic or even a side effect of one of these things is the citrullinemia Thus an inability to metabolise Arginine Im not happy with hypoglycemia, or hypothermia either. Ive read numerous articles and the description of the symptoms of these doesnt for me anyway describe what I saw. All the puppies have been perfectly formed with no deformities which has also been verified by Jed's autopsy. Im also not convinced that this is a calcium deficiency even though we have one example that responded to injections of calcium.Calcium injections usually have amino acids as well. Im having a look at stiff lamb disease which is where the lambs become stiff and eventually die from inhalation pneumonia caused by weak muscles but first symptoms are stiffness. This is caused by feeding old hay etc to the ewe which is deficient in vitamin E Selenium and manganese. Treatment is to give these suppliments to the ewe for the last third of her pregnancy . This is just something Im looking at for now and it may not be anything but there are so many questions unanswered here for me. The juvenile cataracts and the correlation with Arginine deficiency in a pup that also had stiff episodes and lived and my basic philosophy that most things can be traced back to something either lacking, or oversupplied or not storing effectively whether it is caused by genetic, dietary or environmental base has me intrigued. Like Jed I think there is a fair chance that we might never really know the answer but I just love a challenge. Val I wouldnt worry one little bit about your whelpings Whatever it is thats going on here is obviously very rare and I still believe that the best protection for any problems is to just maintain a balanced healthy diet. I think that for whatever reason the bitches involved in what ever we have here are for some reason prone to this or how else do we explain that I have a reasonable amount of bitches here but only one ever shows the problem. Jed only has one bitch and the lady I spoke with that lost 20 puppies had two bitches but they were littermates. You've done a fine job for a long time at putting healthy puppies on the ground and I wouldnt let anything about these stiff puppies change what you already do. I would suggest that you grab some amino acid powder and if you need to suppliment add a pinch to the mix.Not because I think you are in danger of getting stiff puppies but because we know that commercial puppy milk is deficient in these and they are necessary for the immune system.A good strong immune system will fight anything off and the healthier the bitch and the cleaner the environment and the less stress the better. I also believe that there is fair justification for putting a little probiotic into the pup just after birth to counteract any of the bad bacteria. Not probiotic found in yoghurt but in powder form from a health food store. Now Ill problably be really sorry for this but as I said I like a challenge my corgi girl who has the stiff puppy thing is pregnant. I had decided never to mate her again but think of what I might learn I couldnt resist. Puppies due end of October and Im keeping the best records ever from now on. Jim. This type of hernia causes the abdominal organs to protrude through into the diaphram or thoracic cavity. Makes it impossible for them to absorb nourishment etc. [ 21-09-2002, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: Steve ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted September 21, 2002 Author Share Posted September 21, 2002 (edited) . Edited December 4, 2011 by Jed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 Ok, I'm getting a tad concerned here. Call me paranoid. There's been a few references now to calcium supplements just prior to whelping. It's as if everyone is giving it as the norm. My understanding is that the correct amounts of Calcium must be available all the bitches life, preferably through proper diet, not just prior to whelping. In fact, I was under the impression that giving Calcium supplements at this time can actually bring on eclampsia, not prevent it. Have I got this all wrong, or am I misunderstanding what you guys are saying? Cheers Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 Jim I agree I never have nor would I ever give calcium supps prior to whelping. Matter of fact there's warnings all over the place that this causes problems for the bitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.A.H. Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 I agree. I supplement with calcium afer she whelps to assist the bitch and have never had eclampsia in a bitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted September 22, 2002 Author Share Posted September 22, 2002 (edited) . Edited December 4, 2011 by Jed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wundahoo Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 Hi Jim, To supplement a bitch with calcium prior to whelping actually primes her for developing eclampsia. She should simply be fed a well balanced "normal" diet sufficient in calories with no supplementation, and if she is healthy and fit, she will cope perfectly well. Trouble is afoot when people give buckets of Calcium to their bitches after they have been mated and prior to whelping. The mechanism by which pre-whelping calcium supplementation primes for post whelping eclampsia is complex and a bit confusing to say the least, and so I wont go into it.....my posts have a tendancy to get a bit long and boring anyhow!!!! It is sufficient to say that the best results are gained by a normal well balanced diet and then, if really necessary, some moderate supplementation post whelping. My own bitches get NO calcium supplements at any time and I can say that in 30 years of breeding, we have NEVER had a case of milk fever. Our bitches and pups are fed a balanced diet and the bitches milk production is generally very good....something that I carefully monitor as it is a major criterium for the bitch to have a second litter. :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 Thank you all. You've just reassured me. That was precisely how I understood it to be. We had one case of milk fever eons ago when we first started breeding and were still feeding commercial food. Since BARF...nothing. No calcium supplements either. Wundahoo...I have NEVER found your posts either long winded OR boring. I look forward to them and either learn, or get something to think about more often than not. I learnt something new just this morning about electrolyte drinks that I didn't know before. Please keep up with the "Long and boring posts" as you call them. I enjoy them. Cheers Jim [ 22-09-2002, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: Jim ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wundahoo Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 Hi Jim, Thanks for the vote of confidence!!! You asked in an earlier post about diaphragmatic hernia. The diaphragm is a sheet of muscle that is attached to the ribs and body wall. It separates the chest from the abdomen and one of its very important functions is in breathing. It is something really important if you are a singer or play a wind instrument or are involved in many forms of sport where breath control is vital. A hernia of the diaphragm is simply a hole that is not supposed to be there. This hole can be congenital, where the animal is born without a fully formed diaphragm, or the condition can occur as a result of disease or injury. It is very common in cats that have been hit by a car. The severity of the symptoms vary. Some animals cope very well with even severe congenital D.H., and others get into big trouble very quickly. Of course the size of the hernia can play a part in this and also whether or not abdominal organs become entrapped in the hole. In trauma-caused D.H. it is not unusual to find liver or spleen entrapped or twisted into the hernia which then reduces the available room for the lungs. This then means that not only does the animal have a problem breathing, but will also have damage and reduced function to the organ that is involved. Hope thiat this answers you question! :D [ 22-09-2002, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: Wundahoo ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted September 23, 2002 Author Share Posted September 23, 2002 (edited) . Edited December 4, 2011 by Jed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 Wunderhoo, Please dont stop, we like your posts just the way they are. They are easy to understand and Im sure if you try to summarise them we'd miss something.I love the science you teach me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wundahoo Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 Aawwwwwhh guys!!! Thanks for that, I'm really glad to know that I'm not boring you all. But I probably wont have quite so much time to post as of tomorrow, 'cos its back to the "salt mines" for me!! I've been on long service leave and my glorious freedom finishes as of tomorrow morning. I might have to resort to being a "lurker" more than a poster, so if you dont hear from me for a while dont be too concerned, I'm just out earning a dollar in order to be able to keep my beloved cockers...there's a few of them!!! I will make a big effort to post now and again, and if there is something that I just cant keep my big mouth shut about....look out!!! I really like this forum, its so very pleasant and sensible. No one mocks or dictates and everyone's opinions are valued, and I am amazed at the knowledge and experience of so many people who post here. It is such interesting reading. I must say that I joined an e-list a little while ago, read their "members only" archives and saw a few of the new posts.......I unsuscribed pretty quickly, not for me at all!!! So, while you are all happily posting away, think of me, shoulder to the grindstone, sweat off my brow, waiting, waiting for just one powerball!! :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest D Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 This was posted on APL - and I wondered if "puppy fading syndrome" was the same/similar thing - excuse my ignorance if it is completely different...! The puppies develop fading puppy syndrome and you lose two. You are bottle-feeding or tube feeding the last remaining baby. It begins to choke and despite your efforts to clear the airway, the pup stiffens and dies in your hands. the link is.."So you wanna be a breeder" http://www.petlink.com.au/bb/viewtopic.php?t=219 D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted September 23, 2002 Author Share Posted September 23, 2002 (edited) . Edited December 4, 2011 by Jed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 Agreed Jed. In fact, I understand it to be a "Syndrome" ie, a general catch-all phrase to describe puppies that just up and die for no "Apparant" (obvious??) reason. Not a disease as such. Interesting though, that in this link, she should use the words "Go Stiff" while referring to tubing a pup. Maybe there IS a similarity here after all. Cheers Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted September 23, 2002 Author Share Posted September 23, 2002 (edited) I Edited December 4, 2011 by Jed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.A.H. Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Jed I am petrified of tubing--have one still in its bag--how do I do it if ever, and KNOW I have hit the stomach in such a wee tot as a 3 ozs pup?? I have spent literally hours eyedropping on tip of tongue, and with an animal carer teat, and doll bottle of replacer milk ,etc,and been totally exhausted by two weeks, saving a tiny--not game to unpack the damn tube! send me instructions if you can please. PM ?????????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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