Teaching 'drop'

[shekhina]

Daegon has just started back at obedience, he's in grade one. He's only been to three obedience lessons in his life but apart from 'drop' and 'stay' he's right up there with the other dogs so I have not bothered to move him back to beginners.

Stay I can work on, he's never had to do that before and he's catching on very quickly...but drop is another matter. He wont do it. I think that's mostly because he just doesn't understand what I'm asking him to do, so that's OK.

How can I make him understand what I mean? I have tried bringing the food treat down in an 'L' shape which is how I taught Kovu (Kovu is now a VERY fast dropper ) but Daegon just kinda crouches a bit and sniffs at it and when the food gets too far away he's had enough. Should I resort to taking his front legs from under him to move him into the position until he gets the hang of it or is there something else I can try?

Edited July 30, 2006 by shekhina

[Bindie]

What are you trying to get him to drop on. Some dogs won't drop on concrete, or on wet grass. Make sure that you are asking him to drop on something soft. The food thing that you are doing is the best way to teach drop. Maybe you are dragging the food away too fast. Try slowing it down. It may be a little frustrating but your dog will see getting the food as less effort and you may have more success. If your dog is nervous about dropping, pulling his front legs from under him will not help the situation.

[shekhina]

Thank you for the reply

He doesn't seem nervous at all, just doesn't understand. I do move the food very slowly, no difference. I'm trying to get him to drop on grass at obedience training and carpet here at home.

[sithspawn]

With my golden drop is an ongoing problem. I can get him to drop with food 'most times' not a problem, he was a bit slow with this. I had to resort to lowering the food slowly in front of him with very slight pressure on his shoulders. Maybe keep the food right in front of his face until he is actually licking it and almost eating it and then start to lower it very slowly so that he is constantly almost getting it in his mouth (just out of reach though)

Koda just wont drop on command though....Its strange because other commands he is so good with. Anybody have any advice for adding the command to this (without taking away from the initial question).

Edited June 12, 2006 by sithspawn

[BrunoBella]

I just taught Bruno to drop a few weeks ago. First time he didn't get it so I rested my hand on his back sligthly and he dropped. I then repeated it a few times. I always teach drop-sit-drop-sit-stand all at once. Eg, Bruno does a sit, then a drop then a sit - then he gets his treat. It is much easier to learn to drop from a sit than a stand.

I mix it up with the stand as well. I started this when Bruno was 8 weeks and he was doing it fine within a week. I find doing lots of tricks makes the dog understand you're doing training (which my dogs love).

With voice and hand commands, I add them as soon as they've done the trick following a treat a few times. I test by using voice command combined with hand signals - if they listen then I know they have it. I then try with hand signals only.

Bruno at 15 weeks will sit on a hand or voice signal, but drop and stand only on hand signals. Are busy at the moment building drive so my standard training has changed a bit.

[bloss344]

Rather than take the food out in a L shape try taking it down inwards towards his chest, or straight down, like the hand signal. This works really well if you are teaching drop from a stand, the dog kind of folds up like a folding chair. Also when he is in the drop give a jackpot of treats, biggest mistake I made was 1 drop 1 treat, so Bob wouldn't stay down, he kept bouncing up.

Some dogs are not comfortable dropping in a group situation, I have a lot of trouble with Bob at obedience club, but at home he'll drop anytime I ask him to.

[Lablover]

You don't think your dog has any physical problem? May be a vet visit is in order?

[shekhina]

Why would he have a physical problem he's a happy, healthy dog who runs around the backyard and drops to the floor by himself, he just doesn't like doing it when I want him to

I like the idea of bringing it in close to his chest, will try that with him tonight, thank you :D

[Lablover]

Why would he have a physical problem he's a happy, healthy dog who runs around the backyard and drops to the floor by himself, he just doesn't like doing it when I want him to

I like the idea of bringing it in close to his chest, will try that with him tonight, thank you :D

Oh my, am I in trouble again? How can I get myself into strife, when I am only trying to help. I meant no insult. Simply it never ceases to amaze me when owners complain of poor responses, when their dog MAY be sore. When my dogs drop (or other command) with any hesitation, I keep an eye on them generally, like a hawk just in case they have suffered ie a muscular injury in their zest for life.

[shekhina]

Why would he have a physical problem he's a happy, healthy dog who runs around the backyard and drops to the floor by himself, he just doesn't like doing it when I want him to

I like the idea of bringing it in close to his chest, will try that with him tonight, thank you :D

Oh my, am I in trouble again? How can I get myself into strife, when I am only trying to help. I meant no insult. Simply it never ceases to amaze me when owners complain of poor responses, when their dog MAY be sore. When my dogs drop (or other command) with any hesitation, I keep an eye on them generally, like a hawk just in case they have suffered ie a muscular injury in their zest for life.

Woah, touchy

No, you weren't in trouble at all, I appreciate the responses that everyone has given...was just saying that as far as I can tell it's not a painful thing for him to do as he's quite happy to run around as normal and will drop to the floor when he wants to. I'm sorry if you felt I was having a go at you

[shoemonster]

When I taught Molly drop, I lured her with food from a sit, and as her front would go down her bum would come up

So I just put pressure on her bum to push her down til she got the idea

If he isn't nervous, then I would gently grab his front legs, it helps if you are an octopus though, so you can keep both legs down and hold a treat and a lead too! lol

[lab and poodle]

Iy you are aiming to take them all the way in obedience, you need to lure them so that they go backwards a bit when they drop. You should not drop them from a sit becuase they then tend to go stand sit drop in their minds and be a bit slow and sloppy.

If your puppy walks backwards,(dam at this stage) first get them to drop by getting them to get a treat by going under a slightly raised leg. Then move on to dropping them in a backwards scissors movement by luring them with food at about chest level. (Really hard to describe). This is the hard voice of experience. you do not want to untrain you pooch for Open or UD or UDX after getting to drop in an expedient fashion.

I do not suggest that you push or pull their legs out or any such physical force. Their is a real danger of injury, it normally causes an oppisitional reflex , and has no basis in training other than a sort of bush dog training lore,and is a short cut to nowhere. It belongs to an era just before Noah.

[shekhina]

If your puppy walks backwards,(dam at this stage) first get them to drop by getting them to get a treat by going under a slightly raised leg. Then move on to dropping them in a backwards scissors movement by luring them with food at about chest level. (Really hard to describe). This is the hard voice of experience. you do not want to untrain you pooch for Open or UD or UDX after getting to drop in an expedient fashion.

I don't understand, I'm sorry sounds like great advice, and I would like to work both of my dogs as high in obedience as they can go, but I can't picture what I'm meant to be doing :D

[JulesP]

If you are teaching drop from a stand then you put the food on the ground under the dog rather then forwards in a L. So food to doggies nose and slowly down and backwards under the dog, not too far under. Doggie sort of folds down backwards and food ends up at his nose. Does that make sense? Sorry if that is how you are doing it.

[shekhina]

Yup that makes sense, thank you!

I have been doing it from a sit because that's how they have us doing it in obedience class...but since I want to go much further with him than grade one I will just teach him from stand straight away.

Thanks for the tips everyone, will give them a go and see if Daegon complies

[shekhina]

Daegon dropped...3 times, yay!!

I tried it from a stand first and while he started moving backwards once he got his head kinda going under him he didn't want anymore of it, wouldn't drop his front end :D

So I tried from sit again and brought the food really close to his chest and once he was close to the ground slowly started bringing it out to the front along the ground...worked a treat

Would prefer to have him dropping from a stand though as I think it's required in the grade one testing, drop on the move...I think.

Grading is on the 25th of June, but as Daegon has only had 3 lessons of obedience ever I am not expecting a pass

[Rom]

Another method I have found handy is to sit on the floor with your legs out front and knees bent up so as to make a triangle shape between floor heels knees and butt. Have the dog on the left side facing triangle and with right hand under your legs holding treat. May need to adjust height of knees to depth of dogs chest. Poke treat out at dog and then bring it back under your legs. Dog has to get down to get the treat. Doesn't quite get the same 'fold up effect' as the method L&P uses, but is just another way to try and get the idea through to the dogs that just don't seem to understand what you're asking of them. Also a good one for small dogs is to teach the drop on a step. That way you can hold the treat just below the level of the step and they have to put their nose over the edge to get the treat.

I love and prefer any method of training a task that does not use force however so slight because it gives the dog options that don't include resistance to the force because the dog will be trying to maintain its balance and using its muscles all wrong. Makes the learning slower IMO. Esp important in the drop because a dog doesn't have our equivalent to a collar bone to help a stabilize shoulder joint that was not designed to take force from above. Resistance from dog when trying to maintain its balance could stretch the tendons and ligaments that hold the joint in place securely.

Once read an article on muscle memory and balance. Basically if you think back to when you were learning to ride a bike you won't remember exactly what it was that you did when you finally had the balance down and could ride, but once you had the balance right, you never had to relearn...same with teaching a dog...let him get the idea under his own steam and let him figure out the balance for the moves himself without adding any force or physical guidance.

[shekhina]

Thanks for that Rom, I would also much prefer to not use any kind of force, so I'm glad I've found a way that he is comfortable moving into that position himself. I really think he wasn't doing it before because he just didn't know what I was asking of him...and he wouldn't, he's only ever been taught to gait and stand before. He's doing a damn good job learning so fast!

[lab and poodle]

"I don't understand, I'm sorry sounds like great advice, and I would like to work both of my dogs as high in obedience as they can go, but I can't picture what I'm meant to be doing "

I understand . I learn't off our club president who saw it on a videotape of an English trainer, Mary Rae. My pup has just been de-sexed so I won't get her to do it right now, but when I do I will post it.

I reckon you are off to a good start by stating your goals. Here are some things I am doing after teaching my first dog.

1) Now is not too early to get that prey drive going.

2) This is the right time to introduce metal objects

3) Line up a private trainer when you get caught. Don't let things go wrong for ages before getting help.

4) Go for focus and intensity in heeling for 5-8 minutes rather than long drawn out sessions at the club. Goof of, or do something else if your club does this.

5) Make sure your dog(s) enjoys it.

6) Do a fin (shark) test on your instructors. Find out what their interests are, and whether they have successfully trialled dogs. You might be suprised.

7) Will my dog be rewarded if he does the wrong thing in this exercise? What can I do to stop that?

[shekhina]

Thank you for that, looking forward to being able to understand the way you have done it!

I wish I had started Daegon on this a long time ago, he's nearly 13 months old now and has only been taught to gait and stand as he is to be shown as soon as I find someone to handle him...so the ground work especially is all very new to him.

The obedience club I'm at does have instructors that have trialled dogs, so that's a good start...not sure if my particular instructor has trialled dogs though...and I didn't particularly like what she had to say about "Rockies", yes, she called poor Daegon a Rocky instead of a Rotty The lesson is very mixed up, so a couple of minutes of heeling, then sits, stays, more heeling etc.