Dog Aggression

[Kavik]

I did all the right things to prevent dog aggression with Zoe, took her to puppy classes, off lead parks and formal obedience from 4 months, and she started showing aggression towards other dogs at 6 months. I wish I knew then what I know now . . . might have been able to fix the problem when it first started.

[jaybeece]

So sue me.

Nah. Wouldn't waste my time on that one either. Dare say it wouldn't change your attitude. Mind you, must return to my mentors and let them know all this study and practice and research into canine behaviour has been a waste of time ......... all one has to do, according to Rob6014, is smack the dogs.

Yeah gosh Erny, you may be onto something there. And to think that all my boy's needed these past few months was a quick smack over the nose! I'll be sure to get onto that quick smart before any of those crafty experts try to change my mind.

[Herr Rottweiler]

You can train anything out of a dog. It just takes time and efort.

Sorry! I don't agree with that. If it's a critical period issue then you may have the good fortune of improving the situation to a resonable state, however if you don't remain consistant in your training schedual you may find that the behaviour returns rather quickly.

A very technical but brilliant book that will support what I'm telling you is called;

Genetics and the Social Behaviour od Dogs by John Paul Scott and John L. Fuller

[Erny]

So sue me.

Nah. Wouldn't waste my time on that one either. Dare say it wouldn't change your attitude. Mind you, must return to my mentors and let them know all this study and practice and research into canine behaviour has been a waste of time ......... all one has to do, according to Rob6014, is smack the dogs.

Yeah gosh Erny, you may be onto something there. And to think that all my boy's needed these past few months was a quick smack over the nose! I'll be sure to get onto that quick smart before any of those crafty experts try to change my mind.

You were one of the mentors I was thinking about, HR! Is there a special technique to this "smacking" method, I wonder? Where do we go to learn about that? I've read lots of books, even going back to wild pack behaviour, but the wolves don't smack each other. Seems there was a better way to organise pack structure and learn about life that they didn't figure out for themselves.

[Herr Rottweiler]

Erny, all I can say is that there should be a gag clause in the freedom of speech constitution

[wyvernblade]

Phew! Thank goodness I can stop all this exhaustive drive training and just start smacking them! Thanks! ;)

[Erny]

[BCNTC]

both. Happy is aggressive, she was well socialized, trained using positive methodes, but she is still aggressive, look at her mom and suddenly you will nod your head in understanding lol if you watch the way Happys mom reacts in situations, Happy reacts EXACTLY the same way. then look at other pups from the same bitch, all differnt owners and handlers, and almost every last one of them is agressive, one was even declaired a dangerous dog and banned from her town! her owners had to move.

but its just as easy to take a compleyly happy friendlys dog and with abuse and neglect and training, they can be made aggressive.

with lots of training however, NOT consitant training I might add, Happy has improved a HUGE degree, she used to attack any adult, child, or dog she saw. as it stands she thinks kids are gods gift to her. I can safly leave her alone with toddlers and babys, yanking her tails and ears, and rough housing with her and throwing toys into the street, I leave her with the naighborhood kids all the time when I run to my house to do something, and she is the only dog allowed in the house while my 3 month old nephew is over. adults are ball throwing machines. dogs has taken longer, but she is improved so much. latly I have been able to walk her past strange dogs without her giving them a second glance, the other day when I saw a dog approaching at an odd angle, I sent Happy a few metres ahead, had her lay down over there and wait(I walk her off lead) it was perfect, she was fine. now I only have to watch out for Shiba's, Pointers, and Schnauzers, as she has an unexplained hatred from these 3 breeds lol

Edited June 11, 2006 by BCC

[lab and poodle]

I socialised my Lab heavily as a young dog, and as such he has been well socialised. He has been in two rather quick fights in his life and is not painful around other dogs. I made a couple of mistakes though,and one was not to insist on a behaviour or behaviours before I allowed him access to other dogs. It would also be wrong to assume that he is a "low" drive dog becuase he certainly isn't.

I wouldn't allow my young poodle to get even close to the badly behaved bad tempered dogs that we see most often. I can't afford the vet bills,the hassles, and she is not a one dog repair crew for bad training. I do take her to my dog club, I am fussy as to what dogs she "plays" with , and she needs to do someting before I let her greet another dog. when I trial her, i will not hesitate to yank her from a trial if I feel another dog is unstable.

There is a theory that in humankind that children inherit their parent's traumas. It sounds a bit flakey, until you think about how events affect behaviour etc. May be it holds for dogs?

As for smacking, I just put that down in humans as a very unimaginative uneducated response to a stressful situation that actually requires a bit of care and forethought.. I just hope that the smackee never gets up and bites you back so to speak.

[jaybeece]

There is a theory that in humankind that children inherit their parent's traumas. It sounds a bit flakey, until you think about how events affect behaviour etc. May be it holds for dogs?

I couldn't agree more with this statement! I went through a viscious cycle of expecting my dog to act up and getting all anxious about it, he in turn fed off that and reacted more strongly, which just made me more anxious next time.

Now I've calmed down about everything, the improvement in him has been incredible. He's still got a long way to go, but I've learnt so much about how dogs pick up on emotion from the experience and have learnt to be totally cool even when he's not. It's actually made me a calmer person in general

[Keen]

And just to clarify; all those ‘experts’ who have suddenly appeared on the scene, they earn their money by telling other people how to control their aggressive and undisciplined dogs, don’t they? So in reality it is in their be$t interest to allow people to raise undisciplined and aggressive dogs. Puppy pre-school also costs to go, doesn’t it, or is it a free service given by caring dog training experts? Which means no one is making money from insisting that all dogs will be become aggressive if they don’t attend these classes to be ‘socialised’ and that only these training classes run by these experts can result in a happy, well behaved animal. Just trying to understand the motives behind all the expert training that pet dogs now need.

To me, training does not and has never meant a dog that will stand up, sits down or roll over upon request. Training also means teaching a dog how it is to fit in and interact with the household it lives in, which includes humans and other pets, and includes behaviour towards property. A well trained companion dog might not know how to heel or stay or run through hoops, but it should know what not to attack or destroy and how to behave in its living environment.

I have never suggested for one minute anyone should hit any animal in the face, which obviously includes the nose. I never suggested for a minute that training involves constantly hitting your dog, although I have seen ‘experts’ yanking dogs around the neck with various types of collars – some with raised metal pins that are against the dog’s neck, and chains that are pulled savagely against the dog’s throat. Of course that is not smacking them, so I guess that’s completely acceptable and since done by the experts, must good for the dog.

I have seen wolves, dingoes and other wild pack animals discipline their pups – they do it by biting them. Pups are also knocked to the ground, held by the head and neck by bigger dogs, picked up and shaken, and occasionally killed. None of my dogs are wild, so I will not be disciplining them as if they were. As I said, my dogs are smacked if they commit major offences. One tap on the butt (away from the tail/spine) is not going to destroy any dog’s delicate ego, but it will reinforce spoken commands and that word which it is now so not trendy, the “no” word.

[jaybeece]

And just to clarify; all those ‘experts’ who have suddenly appeared on the scene, they earn their money by telling other people how to control their aggressive and undisciplined dogs, don’t they? So in reality it is in their be$t interest to allow people to raise undisciplined and aggressive dogs. Puppy pre-school also costs to go, doesn’t it, or is it a free service given by caring dog training experts? Which means no one is making money from insisting that all dogs will be become aggressive if they don’t attend these classes to be ‘socialised’ and that only these training classes run by these experts can result in a happy, well behaved animal. Just trying to understand the motives behind all the expert training that pet dogs now need.

Conspiracy theories ahoy!

I have seen wolves, dingoes and other wild pack animals discipline their pups – they do it by biting them. Pups are also knocked to the ground, held by the head and neck by bigger dogs, picked up and shaken, and occasionally killed. None of my dogs are wild, so I will not be disciplining them as if they were. As I said, my dogs are smacked if they commit major offences. One tap on the butt (away from the tail/spine) is not going to destroy any dog’s delicate ego, but it will reinforce spoken commands and that word which it is now so not trendy, the “no” word.

That is not the way to reinforce spoken commands. You should not ever smack a dog, end of story. If you have to resort to it physical violence like that then your training must be somewhat ineffective.

You have not exactly blown me (or I imagine anyone else reading this thread) away with your knowledge of dog training/socialising/aggression so I'm not sure why you think your opinion is needed in this thread. So far all you've done is attempt to stir people up with your "faaaar out" methods and claimed 100% success rate with afformentioned methods. Give it a break honey, it's tiring.

If you still think you know what you're talking about, would you like to take my dog for a walk in public sometime? I'd be thrilled to show you how wrong you are by using him as an example of a poorly socialised aggressive dog. I think it would be very beneficial for you to understand what would happen if you smacked a dog with anxiety/aggression problems too. I get the sneaky suspicion that if you were his owner you would have had him PTS by now as he would be unmanageable and downright dangerous under your regime.

Edited June 13, 2006 by jaybeece

[Erny]

And just to clarify; all those ‘experts’ who have suddenly appeared on the scene, they earn their money by telling other people how to control their aggressive and undisciplined dogs, don’t they? So in reality it is in their be$t interest to allow people to raise undisciplined and aggressive dogs. Puppy pre-school also costs to go, doesn’t it, or is it a free service given by caring dog training experts? Which means no one is making money from insisting that all dogs will be become aggressive if they don’t attend these classes to be ‘socialised’ and that only these training classes run by these experts can result in a happy, well behaved animal. Just trying to understand the motives behind all the expert training that pet dogs now need.

And that's why we give out FREE information on the net as to how to work to avoid aggression? :D Rob6014 ..... what a crack up.

Are you expecting people who pay (dearly) to learn and study to become knowledgeable in the ways of dog behaviour to NOT charge for their services? Are you suggesting they DON'T care BECAUSE they seek some income for their services? How else are you going to have these good people out there for those who do need them? They'll be too busy trying to eek out an income doing something else entirely. I suppose you expect your caring doctor to attend to your health needs for nothing? And your vet?

To me, training does not and has never meant a dog that will stand up, sits down or roll over upon request.

It is a way to regularly reinforce leadership ..... after all, only the leader has the right to govern. Besides, the skills you speak of (except perhaps for the "roll over") are skills when taught well, are useful given that we integrate dogs into human civilisation. Of course, there's the "drop" and "recall" too.

Training also means teaching a dog how it is to fit in and interact with the household it lives in, which includes humans and other pets, and includes behaviour towards property. A well trained companion dog might not know how to heel or stay or run through hoops, but it should know what not to attack or destroy and how to behave in its living environment.

True .... But smacking isn't an action the dog comprehends. It is bond diminishing. Oh ..... except for all your four dogs.

I never suggested for a minute that training involves constantly hitting your dog

But you have implied that smacking is a good part of the routine.

... although I have seen ‘experts’ yanking dogs around the neck with various types of collars – some with raised metal pins that are against the dog’s neck, and chains that are pulled savagely against the dog’s throat.

If this IS as YOU describe, then these people are not 'experts'. The training tools you refer to are "Prong Collars" and "Check Chains". Used properly they are very good training tools. Like you suggest, good training shouldn't just about corrections, IMO.

I have seen wolves, dingoes and other wild pack animals discipline their pups – they do it by biting them. Pups are also knocked to the ground, held by the head and neck by bigger dogs, picked up and shaken, and occasionally killed. None of my dogs are wild, so I will not be disciplining them as if they were.

However, smacking dogs is completely foreign to anything remotely resembling the actions of a higher pack member to an insubordinate.

In respect to the highlighted portion of your quote - yes they do ..... often around the neck. I'd suggest the prong collar (used appropriately) is closer to mimicking this than a smack would be.

As I said, my dogs are smacked if they commit major offences. One tap on the butt ...

A tap for a major offence? What do you consider major? Do you expect a tap will make a difference to a dog in defence aggression to another? So, is it a smack or a tap?

[haven]

Would someone be so kind as to PM me the do not feed the troll picture? I seem to have misplaced mine.....

Ta muchly and back to the real discussion

[jaybeece]

Would someone be so kind as to PM me the do not feed the troll picture? I seem to have misplaced mine.....

Ta muchly and back to the real discussion

Hehehe, good point Haven :D

[Alpha]

Interesting topic , with valid advice and commentaries by many. I concur that aggression can be "trained out", I ,too, was one of the socialise and experience troupe, meet and greet all and sundry who were amendable to it. One nasty large, black dog v's one 6month old ACD and it's all over, red rover :D My boy never trusted another large dark dog ( bitch or dog) again, he took on an "attack or be attack" MO and had trouble even excluding long haired breeds from his repatiore of dislike. Over time and with much positive reinforcment, I was able to enter an obedience ring and not tremble if I noticed the dog next to him for the stays was a Rottie, GSD,Lab, Wolfhound or whatever. I would search out the competitor/s and ask if we could allow the dogs to met prior to the competition; for them as much as me, I would hate my dog to cause another to break, many were happy to do so when explained the reasons. It was never intended for the dogs to be best buddies...but to show my dog there was no threat and enforce the idea that "stay" meant "stay", I was proofing my dog in an area he was falliable in. I always walked about with eyes in the back of my head and pre selected my route through masses of dogs at trials and for all that my boy never broke a stay for a blue.

[jaybeece]

Interesting topic , with valid advice and commentaries by many. I concur that aggression can be "trained out", I ,too, was one of the socialise and experience troupe, meet and greet all and sundry who were amendable to it. One nasty large, black dog v's one 6month old ACD and it's all over, red rover My boy never trusted another large dark dog ( bitch or dog) again, he took on an "attack or be attack" MO and had trouble even excluding long haired breeds from his repatiore of dislike. Over time and with much positive reinforcment, I was able to enter an obedience ring and not tremble if I noticed the dog next to him for the stays was a Rottie, GSD,Lab, Wolfhound or whatever. I would search out the competitor/s and ask if we could allow the dogs to met prior to the competition; for them as much as me, I would hate my dog to cause another to break, many were happy to do so when explained the reasons. It was never intended for the dogs to be best buddies...but to show my dog there was no threat and enforce the idea that "stay" meant "stay", I was proofing my dog in an area he was falliable in. I always walked about with eyes in the back of my head and pre selected my route through masses of dogs at trials and for all that my boy never broke a stay for a blue.

Good on you for bringing him back How long did it take you? Can you trust him on and offlead with all other dogs now?

[Nekhbet]

Anyone that hits, screams at or smacks their dog is not a trainer. Anyone that misuses training equiptment to the point of abuse is not an expert and should be reported.

I use a prong and my dog doesnt give a rats. She hears it rattle and she comes running with tail wagging because it means training time.

My mastiff also comes bolting when he hears his check chain rattle because it means he's going out.

Gee I'm horrible.

A well trained companion dog should know commands and how to behave appropriately. Heeling on lead is good behaviour, sitting is good behaviour, drop stay is good behaviour. Any dog that cant do this is NOT trained, and if it sits quiety in the backyard its whole life then get it off the medication because ALL dogs require at least basic obedience as part of family life.

A good puppy preschool should teach family living, not just sit, walk and drop.

[Alpha]

Jaybeece.....Unfortunately he left us four years ago after 13 wonderful years, yes he was able to work on and off lead with other dogs about but as I never really knew the exact trigger as it was so variable I was always alert. It took 3 years before I was ok about entering a sanctioned event ( fun days and such I was ok) He would have been fine to have entered 18 months earlier I am told. Being very food orientated and trained with food he was 99.9% recall perfect so I could have him off lead in play and if he had a ball, me and food he was foolproof. I say 99.9% as I never pushed the enevelope and placed him in a non training situation where he was threatened IE: off lead in play mode, with a ball, me and food.

[lab and poodle]

Sometimes after spending time explaining non gratia at the dog club or on the web how to do things, I wonder why some get to vote. I reckon i spend a fair bit of time learning new training methods. Can some one "show me the money?". Its the dogs dummy.