Dog Aggression

[Kirty]

I was just wondering something. Are pups born dog aggressive, or do they become it? Or can it happen both or either way? For example, if you brought home a 10 week old puppy who had been raised with its mother and siblings, could it be dog aggressive? If so, could you train it out of them? Through regular, and positive socialisation can you train a dog to be social with other dogs?

[my_sibe_owns_me]

You can train anything out of a dog. It just takes time and efort.

[jaybeece]

I think that with patience and persistance you can do almost anything. If a pup was aggressive from day 1 I'm not sure if it'd ever be 100% trustworthy, but with the right training you could definately have it under control at all times.

As far as nature vs nurture is concerned, who really knows? Young animals are such fragile creatures sometimes that it can take only one bad experience to shape their future behaviour so it's hard to tell if they're really born with a problem or not.

I do think that it also depends on the dog- sex, temperament, drives and breed. Even with the right socialising and obedience, once they hit 6-12 months old things like fear periods and hormones can make a big difference on their behaviour, especially where it comes to same sex interactions. Some will go through that barely batting an eyelid, others won't.

[wyvernblade]

Well I am experimenting with that question right now with my new puppy. The last, say 4 dogs we've had I've done all the 'right' things with them. We went to puppy classes at the local vets, we started obedience at the local club with the puppies after puppy class where they had 'off leash' play sessions and I took them to off lead parks to 'play'. EVERY single dog turned out dog aggressive!! This new puppy is not going to see another dog until over 6 months of age, and will never be playing off lead with any dog, not even my own. As far as I am concerned now and it makes perfect sense, as in a natural situation it is NOT NORMAL for dogs to be 'best friends' with every other dog they meet, The dog has to learn FIRST and FOREMOST that I am their world, their leader, their protector AND their playmate. I want my dog to see other dogs as complete non entities, not play things, not scary, and not targets!! I'll let you know if it works this time!

[my_sibe_owns_me]

Well I am experimenting with that question right now with my new puppy. The last, say 4 dogs we've had I've done all the 'right' things with them. We went to puppy classes at the local vets, we started obedience at the local club with the puppies after puppy class where they had 'off leash' play sessions and I took them to off lead parks to 'play'. EVERY single dog turned out dog aggressive!! This new puppy is not going to see another dog until over 6 months of age, and will never be playing off lead with any dog, not even my own. As far as I am concerned now and it makes perfect sense, as in a natural situation it is NOT NORMAL for dogs to be 'best friends' with every other dog they meet, The dog has to learn FIRST and FOREMOST that I am their world, their leader, their protector AND their playmate. I want my dog to see other dogs as complete non entities, not play things, not scary, and not targets!! I'll let you know if it works this time!

I so understand what your saying! We have mutts and mastiff and had a rott and a lot of other mutts and we did the same thing, by taking them out and trying to get them to like and be buddy buddys with other dogs...and well like yours our dogs dont alow many new dogs into the pack and all of them are dog agressive...

But in an odd way I think your new method will work! to really stop and think about it you want the dog to have a strong bond with you then you wouldnt alow your pup to gain the same bond with other dogs...

Good Ideal! Be sure to let us know how the pup turns out

ps. Do you think your new method would work and a dog that just turned 6 months and has tried to eat other dogs from day 1?

[wyvernblade]

Hmmmm not sure about an older dog! Altho our Shepherd that we have now was pretty much aggressive from when we got him, altho I have a secret suspicion that it was thanks to our little (WE thought) harmless Yorkie that had a go at him and started the whole thing off! So now all dogs are in seperate runs, get to play with us at different times, and come inside at different times. Makes it a little awkward sometimes, but like I said, the way it's 'supposed' to be done hasn't worked so far, and when you think about it the whole socialising thing doesn't really make sense! And it only takes one fright to scare the bejesus out of the dog for the rest of it's life!! We've been working with the Shepherd using K9 Force's drive methods (shown to us by Erny) and we can now work him around other dogs with him paying no attention to them, so that's fine by me! He doesn't HAVE to play with them for me to be happy, or for me to think his life isn't complete without having a dog as a best friend! So will keep you updated with new puppy!

[Nekhbet]

Yeah there is a general misconception, and was also taught to me, that dogs NEED to meet and play with other dogs for socialisation. In fact, as you have said Wyvern, it leads to more problems then its worth. Even with mine, i've completely given up, they have me and each other. More then enough. Most bad dogs behaviours are human related wether it be our mistakes in training or just ignoring the fact there is a problem.

Socialisation should be more of a trust building and distraction exercise. Take the pup on the train, city, country, car, peoples homes etc BUT its to teach it to be non responsive in different environments and animals.

Saying that I have met a poorly bred rotty pup, 4 months old it was biting its owners hard, drew blood and growled, snapped and barked at everyone. Even latched onto another puppy at its puppy preschool and started shaking! The owners bought it from very aggressive and nervy stock, frankly that was one I would have just PTS and desexed both parents. I dont beleive its just being born bad, but being predisposed to have bad behaviour with the wrong type of owner.

[wyvernblade]

Yes you're right! And not only that, but how many dog owners are there out there that have NO IDEA about dog behaviour, or think it's great that their dog acts like it's going to kill everyone, or they just let their dogs go, and start chatting and have no idea what their dogs are up to! It's all those things that make me not want to take my dogs anywhere near where there are other dogs!

My puppy has so far been to the local primary school every day, to shopping centres, to friends houses, inside shops and supermarkets (I actually got kicked out of Safeway this morning, I picked the day they had the health inspectors there! ) and he comes to work with me every day. I think it's important they are taken everywhere and get used to loud noises, trucks, odd places, people etc but there's no reason why they SHOULD be getting used to playing with other dogs! After only a week at home, my shepherd can be running the fence line barking while I'm outside with the puppy, and the puppy doesn't even look at him, let alone want to go over and meet him, and I can call him straight back when he sees him. So, I'm pretty happy so far

[Erny]

IMO it is not a matter of "pups born with aggression". Aggression is a survival trait. It is whether the threshold for reactivity is low or high. Genetics plays a part here, but a great part is the role we play in providing our pups/dogs with an endless broad spectrum of exposure to those things we take for granted; in our demonstration as leaders; and in our early identification of behaviours that are not socially acceptable (either to us or to other dogs) and quick but clear and consistant guidance as to the behaviours that will better serve our dogs to get what they want.

[my_sibe_owns_me]

Yes you're right! And not only that, but how many dog owners are there out there that have NO IDEA about dog behaviour, or think it's great that their dog acts like it's going to kill everyone, or they just let their dogs go, and start chatting and have no idea what their dogs are up to! It's all those things that make me not want to take my dogs anywhere near where there are other dogs!

My puppy has so far been to the local primary school every day, to shopping centres, to friends houses, inside shops and supermarkets (I actually got kicked out of Safeway this morning, I picked the day they had the health inspectors there! ) and he comes to work with me every day. I think it's important they are taken everywhere and get used to loud noises, trucks, odd places, people etc but there's no reason why they SHOULD be getting used to playing with other dogs! After only a week at home, my shepherd can be running the fence line barking while I'm outside with the puppy, and the puppy doesn't even look at him, let alone want to go over and meet him, and I can call him straight back when he sees him. So, I'm pretty happy so far

I agree with the whole letting your dog go everywhere. My sibe dogs and she wont even think twice about loud noises....but dogs on the other hand...she knows where every1 one of them is and what they are doing.

[jaybeece]

Yeah there is a general misconception, and was also taught to me, that dogs NEED to meet and play with other dogs for socialisation. In fact, as you have said Wyvern, it leads to more problems then its worth. Even with mine, i've completely given up, they have me and each other. More then enough. Most bad dogs behaviours are human related wether it be our mistakes in training or just ignoring the fact there is a problem.

Socialisation should be more of a trust building and distraction exercise. Take the pup on the train, city, country, car, peoples homes etc BUT its to teach it to be non responsive in different environments and animals.

I agree, so many people forget how important different environments are in the socialising process. Instead they think that throwing their 4 month old pup into the middle of a crowd of adult dogs is all it takes

I think the majority of my boy's problems relate to an almost complete lack of socialising/training after puppy pre-school. This seems to be a very common problem too- all my friends who own dogs fell into the same trap. They seem to think that a few puppy classes and the basics like sit and stay are all that are required to have a well adjusted dog, but they are so very wrong.

When I got my dog he was 6 months old, barely trained and highly reactive to everything onlead. I suspect he rarely left the backgarden with his old owner as he pulled like a fiend on his flat collar and that's all they had to walk him with. I don't want to think about how much of a nightmare it would have been walking a dog like that on a regular basis. Added to the lack of walks, I don't think he was taken on outings much due to his size (33kg at 6 months) and hyperactivity. He also jumped on every single person he met. I think the old owner really bit off more than they could chew with such a big, active and above all else, incredibly stubborn puppy. There's a chance that some of his problems are caused by questionable breeding (yay BYB!), but I think it's 99% upbringing.

I made the mistake of throwing him into the deepend after about a month of owning him. We hit the offlead park every day and I took him with me on as many outings as possible. If I had known more about dog behaviour back then I would have done so many things different, but back then the aggression issues weren't around when he was offlead and I didn't know how to read his body language. At 10 months old he was smack bang in the middle of a fear period, full of silly teenage male hormones and ready to take on anything that made him feel uncomfortable, which ended up being every single new large male dog he met, then it became every new large dog he met. I just assumed that they'd sort themselves out when they had a bit of a growl or if one tried to hump him. This, added to bad advice given on how to deal with aggression (telling him off, heavy correction) only served to enhance his existing anxiety and damage the trust he'd develped in me which also made him more protective of me. During periods of heightened anxiety (generally caused by new/noisy/dog crowded environments) he developed a nasty habit of lunging at damn near anything that moved.

Basically, his primary problem is social anxiety. But then I also have to deal with him being naturally protective, as well as that he's a big young male who dearly wants to be top dog around the majority of male (and the occasional large female) dogs. That's not necessarily a bad thing with a confident, dominant dog but he is still lacking the confidence he needs to feel comfortable so is always looking to prove himself around them.

Phew, that got long quick

[wyvernblade]

I think one of the quickest ways to find out if you're dog trusts you, is to take it somewhere it is likely to feel unsure, and see whether it runs back to you, or runs away or past you. If your dog runs back to you it views YOU as the leader, and protector. I think once that bond is there it makes it easier to introduce new things to it. I am in the same boat as you with our Shepherd, dog aggressive thanks to puppy classes, and bad advice (Correction, growling etc) and if he gets a fright, he just takes off! We haven't proven to him that we'll protect and look after him, so he doesn't trust us. It's a work in progress! That's why I think the whole training in Drive thing is so good, because all you are ever doing is playing with your dog, and moulding his reactions to what you want! There are no corrections involved, no growling, no punishment, all the dog ever hears from you is 'Yes!' not "No, bad dog!'

I think that any older dog that already has a problem is probably unfixable, but you can still live with it if that makes sense. It's like having a special needs child! You don't get rid of them you find ways to make life easier for both of you!

[Erny]

I think one of the quickest ways to find out if you're dog trusts you, is to take it somewhere it is likely to feel unsure, and see whether it runs back to you, or runs away or past you. If your dog runs back to you it views YOU as the leader, and protector.

Perhaps, Wyvernblade ..... but it may be that the dog ONLY seeks you out for protection because in THAT (unfamiliar) environment, it feels it has no other choice but to defer to you. Back home, or in familiar territory, the Leadership a person might have thought they had could well disappear ... completely, in which case, leadership really isn't in place after all.

ETA: I have worked with some dogs who's owners are established "non-leaders" (as evidenced by the dog's behaviour towards them and in the environment). I can take the lead from the owner and walk away, but the dog wants to shuffle/scurry back to the owners. It's not because it views them as its "Leaders", but more probably because I might have change a rule (eg. made training consistent) and the dog is initially unsure of this, or even confused (in the very short while).

Edited June 9, 2006 by Erny

[wyvernblade]

Yes but our Shepherd runs away from us if something frightens him at home! LOL

[Erny]

I agree, so many people forget how important different environments are in the socialising process. Instead they think that throwing their 4 month old pup into the middle of a crowd of adult dogs is all it takes

Unfortunately, you're right JB. Which is why many people think that having (eg) one or two weeks of critical period socialisation remaining is pleeeeennnnnty of time! Critical period socialisation should comprise of as much introduction to new and novel experiences as possible. It should be don't in little short introductions, gradually building up the intensity so the pup is not traumatised. Even if you have a pup at 7 or 8 weeks old and figure on socialising until the end of the critical period (eg 16 weeks), a person would be hard pushed in exposing to every perceivable and possible experience the dog will be exposed to throughout the rest of its life. But if a person works to TRY to achieve that, they will at least have covered as much as possible and with the carry over effect early puppy socialisation has, there's a good chance it will be sufficient enough to stand the dog in good stead through its adult life.

[Keen]

Well thank goodness this topic has come up!! NONE of my dogs were ever 'socialised' with other dogs, puppies or people, and NONE of them were ever aggressive towards people puppies or dogs. I don't put up with displays of agression in my dogs in any situation what so ever. None of my dogs were fearful of anything and none of them were frightened of thunder or fire-crackers or were 'hand-shy'. All of my dogs got smacks when they committed major offences. I have raised all of them contrary to the 'experts', yet all my dogs knew/know they were/are dogs and I was human and all of them are loving and loved inside companions. So there - flame away.

[Erny]

No flaming here. Not worth the time. Interested to know how many dogs you're speaking of though. Are you talking experience with MAJORITY of dogs, or a very small minority, in the scheme of things.

[jaybeece]

Well thank goodness this topic has come up!! NONE of my dogs were ever 'socialised' with other dogs, puppies or people, and NONE of them were ever aggressive towards people puppies or dogs. I don't put up with displays of agression in my dogs in any situation what so ever. None of my dogs were fearful of anything and none of them were frightened of thunder or fire-crackers or were 'hand-shy'. All of my dogs got smacks when they committed major offences. I have raised all of them contrary to the 'experts', yet all my dogs knew/know they were/are dogs and I was human and all of them are loving and loved inside companions. So there - flame away.

Congratulations.

[Keen]

In 30 years I've only ever owned 4 dogs - because my terrible 'wrong' way of raising them helped them all lived a long, long time. At the moment I have one healthy, active happy 17 year old and one demon 3 month old. So sue me.

[Erny]

So sue me.

Nah. Wouldn't waste my time on that one either. Dare say it wouldn't change your attitude. Mind you, must return to my mentors and let them know all this study and practice and research into canine behaviour has been a waste of time ......... all one has to do, according to Rob6014, is smack the dogs.

Edited June 9, 2006 by Erny