At My Wits End...

[lab and poodle]

All I can give you is my experience with my older dog (a lab),and others that I have taught. I am tired of reading advice about using a choker in a different, more painful way or some other painful device and playing with language about how it works, implying that a dog is some kind of cartesian machine, and the answer is to do whatever you do but harder. I admired Koehler ,who was probably the opposite pole of how I train, because he told it like it was, and didn't use slick language. A humorous definintion of insanity is "repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results" . As far as I am concerned, it pretty well describes this situation.

When my dog was 4-5 years old, I trained him through bloody mindeness to CD. He was lethargic, and very "resentful". He was an unrelible around home, and really wasn't what I signed up for! I had been to conventional dog school and tried to minimise the corrections, but I made each one count. Every time I think about how "conventional " schools teach dogs, I need to burst out laughing as it is so ridiculous. Imagine telling you in swahili something , then choking you , and then pushing you into a position as a way of teaching you something.How quick would you be? Well that is how we taught our dogs to sit.

I read, and looked, and threw my choker collar away. I made myself give up the constant no's and nagging. When I didn't know, I managed the situation. My dog was tethered in some strange places while I walked around thinking what to do!. It was hard, and hellish. Then, I started to notice some things like him offering me behaviours. He became keen to go out with me. He loved going to our new dog school. I taught him all the CDX exercises and when I did a dummy run, he was so keen he did them all on his own. He started tuning into me. He wanted to "work" . He got through CDX with high marks, and was quick and enthusiatic, so much so that judges used to comment on how "quick" he was for a lab. He was a hell of a lot better around home because he knew what was to do, rather that what he wasn't.

He went on to do UD, and in the end what stopped him was his psyhique. He is fun, keen to learn at 12 3/4 full of character, (I still "train" him even now) a delight to be with and an absolute pleasure to have.

As a lab, he is food obsessed. He will file his teeth on the pavement to eat dried vomit, but I can also chuck his treat bag in the back with him, along with the groceries and know he will not touch them. He has learned that trying to access resources directly is almost certainly doomed to failure, but by complying with our wishes he has a chance.

I learnt a lot from him, so much so that when I looked for my next dog I wanted a ratbag.

If you want a further look, try Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson available from www.dogwise.com.

I hope you find some of this useful.

[Lablover]

This is Champa - see how innocent he looks? He fools everyone!

And Champa and Maisie.

You can sort of see the evil glint in his eye in this pic...

He does look innocent and probably is. Maybe training him alone is the best way to go, so you can focus completely on him.

My first rule is: Never blame the dog. I always blame my training first, second and last.

[Lablover]

BTW, with his breeding, I would love to get my hands on him, and try him out. Want to visit????? Free of course.

[mita]

Great advice from everyone.

Yep, I know the 'bottom not quite touching the ground thing'...& I counter it thro' the Nothing In Life Is Free method. Our small breed dogs would rather jump up to get the good things of life (attention, treats etc)...so the command 'Sit' sends them in an opposite direction. Which they don't really like.

So I don't say 'Sit' for the tibbies...I say 'Bottoms on the ground' (No...they don't speak English!) But it's a reminder to me that the treat or attention won't be forthcoming until the bottom is actually on the ground. I turn & ignore (taking the treat or attention with me!) if the bottom doesn't make it. Then I hear the thud of a bottom hittng the ground behind me!!!!

Consistency finally makes the penny drop!

For dogs that are passionate about eating things...food, shoes or whatever, I like a nice big Kong. Gives them something to chew on & have in their mouths...& there's the smell of food, too.

[WreckitWhippet]

if there is food and you say "NO" or "LEAVE IT" he will keep eating until you physically pull him away, even though he knows he is not allowedto be eating it. So I ended up cracking it and putting him back inside, and just taking Maisie to the park.

I'm not going to offer any advice re training tips as the others have already offered these. What I did pick up on is that you say throughout your posts that "he knows". I pick up on the frustration that you are feeling , I have been there and done that with a French Bulldog that tested my patients to the limit , with just about every activity we did or command we learnt.

Take a step back, take a deep breath and look at it from the dogs point of view. He is obviously eager to be involved ( although he may not involve himself the way you would like ), he wants your attention and once you master what makes him tick and turns on the "will to please" you, there will be no stopping you and this dog. He sounds just like a freinds ex-customs dog ( a Lab ), he nearly drove them insane, but with some patience, expert advice and training, he is now a little gem.

Good luck

[PAX]

Hey Lablover,

Me and my dog will visit and let you get your 'hands on', my dog is black, will that do?

[Lablover]

Hey Lablover,

Me and my dog will visit and let you get your 'hands on', my dog is black, will that do?

Yes please. If I lived in the burbs, I would be pulling people off the street, testing their dogs. I love it. Love it. Love it.

[petaj]

I know this is gross and I have never tested the theory myself, but I read in what I considered overall to be a fairly reputable training guide that you can gain the leader of the pack position non-physically using urine! Male dogs especially like marking their territory, and I read that if NILIF technique isn't working then maybe you could try putting your own urine in a spray bottle and marking points in the yard at a higher level than the dog can mark. Dogs can somehow associate the scent of urine to people they haven't even met yet apparently, I have heard stories where trainers have gone into yards of dogs they haven't met yet when they were absent and sprayed points, allowed the dogs to smell the yard when he wasn't there and when he arrived a few days later the dogs treated him as top of the hierarchy (I think they were usually very aggressive or something).

Perhaps the dog respects you out on the lead but not in "his" territory? Or because you are better able to be consistent on the lead, or perhaps a combination. I wish I could remember the name of the author of the training book, a lot of what he wrote about pretty well describes your dog. The techniques I tried on my dog didn't really work, but I think that was just because my dog doesn't learn that way and had very little experience with any form of training when we got her.

Best of luck.

[Muttaburra]

Kirty

he is a smart dog and even half a lab is totally food orientated, try food and praise, lure to sit, don't push to sit, should be no need, reward with food and pats and cuddles. You need an obedience school to learn how to train your dog. NILIF yes thumbsup1.gif perfect for labs cos they are piggies and will do anything for a crumb and love pats and praise.

oh and he likes the shoes because they smell of you and he wants to be near you. frown.gif he doesn't steal the shoe to piss you off

I think Rusky has some good hints there. Often habits like chewing shoes from separation anxiety become a more complex as the dog gets older and sometimes turn into "boredom/lonliness" breaker activities and games.

Firstly, it's clear that you have become frustrated with your dog and your dog is losing respect for you. Dog's need consistencey and respond best to reward.

Obedience school will be great for giving you both a fresh start and getting back in step with each other again. Also be consistent about the "dog pack order". Always feed the same dog first (in this case Champa would be the first dog, since he seems more naturally "forward" and dominant of the two), pat the Champa first etc. If you keep favouring one then swapping to the other your dogs can become unmanigable, Champa is probably really confused, he knows he should be above the other dog. All the humans in the family are above both the dogs. There are some good techniques for conditioning your dog into this understanding in a positive way.

He does look like a fabulous dog, you will have to learn some "dog language" to help him understand that you are a good and fair leader. There is hope.

(from a world weary Jack Russell Terrier owner) :D