At My Wits End...

[Kirty]

I am at my wits end with my dog Champa. He is just the most un-loving, un-caring, selfish dog I have ever come across. Every time I try and do something nice for the dogs, he ruins it. This morning I was trying to get them into the car to take them to the park. I had both dogs sitting next to the car and said "Wait" - he knows what this means. As soon as I opened the car door he tried to leap in, knocking everything out of my hands (my son's breakfast). So I yelled at him, pushed him back down and said "WAIT!". I then said "OK" to Maisie to let her in. I turn around and Champa has run off, trying to get all the food off the ground. I yelled at him again but he ignored me - if there is food and you say "NO" or "LEAVE IT" he will keep eating until you physically pull him away, even though he knows he is not allowed to be eating it. So I ended up cracking it and putting him back inside, and just taking Maisie to the park.

He is so sneaky too - he will do things which he knows are wrong if he thinks he can get away with it. At our old house he used to escape during the day and steal peoples shoes. We would come home, and find him in the backyard with someone's shoe. One day, we came home early before he had a chance to get back in the yard - he knew he was going to be in trouble for being out, so he hid in our neighbours garden for about 4 hours. I was beside myself with worry, walking up and down the street calling him, drove around the area, called all the pounds, shelters, vets, etc. I finally found him hiding in the garden. He could hear us calling him but knew he would be in trouble, so he kept hiding. Maisie though - if she knows she is not allowed to do something, she won't. Like when I had her in the car this morning, I had some food on the front seat. I told her "LEAVE IT", went to put Champa inside, came back and the food was still there, Maisie was sitting perfectly in the back seat. Champa would have eaten it.

I just don't know what to do anymore. I have enrolled him in dog school, but I really don't think it is going to help. He knows all the commands and he is very sociable, but he has absolutely no desire to work for me. At obedience last week he worked perfectly. But get him home or anywhere else and its a different story. All he cares about is food - but he won't even work for that. As I have said in previous posts, I can't put coats or collars on them because he chews them off. When we are walking, I always make my dogs sit at the curb before crossing the road. Maisie does it first time, but Champa looks at me and slowly, slowly half-sits - its like he is trying to get one over on me. He thinks if he half sits, he has won. He KNOWS what sit means!

I end up in tears almost every day over things he has done. When we let him inside, the first thing he does is run to the bin or the pantry and start eating - again, he won't stop until you physically remove him. He destroyed all of my mother-in-laws pot plants. This dog is almost 4 years old and has been this way since we got him. What can I do? I feel like I can't love him anymore because of his behaviour. It is breaking my heart and I just don't know what to do.

[Jefe's owners]

Triangle of temptation will help A LOT.

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=64101

[Nekhbet]

He has you eating out of his paw. He's getting everything he wants - attention.

You allow yourself to be played by this dog and he uses it to his advantage. As for destroying things ... if he cant get to them then he wont destroy them! You leave food, shoes etc withing his grasp then chase him round yelling at him ... his brain is going 'WOOHOO THIS IS GREAT all this noise and running and all I had to do was pinch a shoe". When he's inside, put him on a lead or tether him next to his mat until he gets it.

If he half sits, correct the little bugger. Sit ... a couple of seconds ... CORRECT ... if he hasnt sat then repeat. You give him too much slack. You have taught him to ignore you as well, repeating command without any sort of correction or reward from you means he has self rewarded NOT to listen. You say leave it and he goes "oh I can eat this now"

Also you have to work with him individually, you cant have him and Maisy out at the same time and expect him to behave. Time for a complete lifestyle AND training method change, so far he has run all over you so you need to learn how to deal with a dominant dog.

look up K9 Force and also www.leerburg.com training articles, treat him like a new puppy and start everything all over again.

Edited June 8, 2006 by Nekhbet

[jaybeece]

Yikes, sounds like a right bastard! What kind of dog is he?

I've suggested it before to people and I'll suggest it again....NILIF!! And it sounds like you need to get a lot stricter with him.

Get that dog working for everything so he learns to appreciate you. Also, if you tell him to sit and he hasn't by the count of 2, correct him and repeat "SIT". A sit is not half way between sitting and standing either, it is bum on the ground or he gets corrected for it. You should never, ever let him get away with not following a command immediately because he's already figured out he can push you a long way.

I'd also keep him on a lead a lot more often to stop him getting into food and misbehaving. I think obedience school will help as well as most obedience instructors will pin point an arsehole dog and help train you on how to deal with them.

I know how frustrating a stubborn male can be My boy is constantly pushing the boundaries and trying to get away with as much as he can, it's just fortunate that I'm significantly more stubborn than he is!

Good example is I eased off him for a while and let him get away with dropping instead of sitting when I told him to sit. It's been about 3 weeks since I started cracking down on him for this and the bugger still tries it from time to time. I've taught him to sit from a drop and do you think he'll do it if I don't make him? Argh

Edited June 8, 2006 by jaybeece

[Kirty]

He is a desexed male Labrador cross German S/H Pointer. And apparently he exhibits the WORST traits of both breeds! Anyone want a good model for why its not a good idea to cross breeds? HAVE CHAMPA!

When I ask him to sit at the curb, I say "SIT" in a firm voice, and he does what I said above. I then pull up on the lead, push his bottom down and say "SIT" again, then "good dog" in a happy voice. But it makes no difference. He still does it at EVERY curb. And with the shoes, we never left them in his reach - he would jump our six foot fence, go up the street, steal them from someone's front porch, carry them home, jump back over the fence, and eat them.

The only thing he is good with is meal time. I say "SIT" "STAY" (which he does) and wait for him to look at me - which he does every time without fail - then after a varying amount of time with him looking at me, I say "OK".

And so far at obedience (we have only been once) he was PERFECT! Walked at a perfect heel, sat first time every time, wagged his tail and looked like the loveliest, most willing, obedient dog.

ETA: Just had a quick look at the NILIF page, and I pretty much do all of that already. They have to sit and stay before they get food, when entering of exiting the car they must wait until I say OK, when putting on their leads they have to sit quietly or they don't go for a walk, when I let them off at the park they have to sit and stay until I say OK.

Edited June 8, 2006 by Kirty

[Kirty]

This is Champa - see how innocent he looks? He fools everyone!

And Champa and Maisie.

You can sort of see the evil glint in his eye in this pic...

Edited June 8, 2006 by Kirty

[jaybeece]

^^^ hehe, I can see how he fools everyone

He is a desexed male Labrador cross German S/H Pointer. And apparently he exhibits the WORST traits of both breeds! Anyone want a good model for why its not a good idea to cross breeds? HAVE CHAMPA!

When I ask him to sit at the curb, I say "SIT" in a firm voice, and he does what I said above. I then pull up on the lead, push his bottom down and say "SIT" again, then "good dog" in a happy voice. But it makes no difference. He still does it at EVERY curb. And with the shoes, we never left them in his reach - he would jump our six foot fence, go up the street, steal them from someone's front porch, carry them home, jump back over the fence, and eat them.

Ok, when he doesn't sit straight away, no pushing down on his bum. Keep it just to his collar and make it a short, sharp correction as well as a firm "SIT" (this doesn't apply if you're using a head harness). Do you use a correction collar of any kind? If not a check chain would be a good idea, or a prong/pinch if you can get your hands on one. You want to make this correction as clear as possible (obviously without resorting to abuse) so understands that disobeying you is not an option.

If you push his bum down he may misinterpret that as praise as you're touching him. Also, when he does sit, wait a couple of second before saying "Good dog" and don't praise him too much, afterall he's been a bastard about sitting and you don't want him to think that it's ok to make things so difficult. Praise heavily if he sits first go.

I think deep down he wants to do the right thing by you, it's just he likes to push you as well.

Edited June 8, 2006 by jaybeece

[bloss344]

Very smart dog. I don't have any more advice other than what's been suggested above except to say that reading your post, all I could think of was this is a smart dog and consequently a little bit bored. Ok, he's thinking about things you don't want him to do but a thinker nevertheless.

NILIF is great. Dog school is a great idea, it will be a time that you and he are spending quality time together away from the other dog and family, and it should challenge him mentally.

Perhaps agility, something that he really enjoys. Or lots of brain work, name toys and objects around the house and send him off to get them. Bob will go and find a particular pair of my runners that I only wear at home and bring them to me, and I've taught him to get one of those little soft bottle coolers named 'lunch box'. He will find certain toys. You are going to have to be one step ahead of this boy. My Bob is somewhat similar to Champa always thinking of things to get my attention. I do quite a bit each day to keep Bob stimulated, just doing tricks, obedience, then we play ball his most favourite thing, and today I got out the jumps for him. I don't spend a lot of time just bits here and there to keep him stimulated. Good luck.

[Cheyenne_Fury]

I agree with the triangle of temptation and NILIF methods already suggested. It really worked for my beagle Murray who would do exactly what he wanted when he wanted and also thought that he was in charge of everything.

I disagree when you say that obedience school won't help. It will help because not only will it give you the tools to work with Champa so that he is a much nicer dog to live with but it will also build up your relationship with him and also give him some one on one time with you which is very important.

Good luck with him he sounds like a great dog just in need of some guidance and manners

[Rusky]

he is a smart dog and even half a lab is totally food orientated, try food and praise, lure to sit, don't push to sit, should be no need, reward with food and pats and cuddles. You need an obedience school to learn how to train your dog. NILIF yes perfect for labs cos they are piggies and will do anything for a crumb and love pats and praise.

oh and he likes the shoes because they smell of you and he wants to be near you. he doesn't steal the shoe to piss you off

I can't say positively but if a dog hides I would say he is a bit worried as to what may happen if he returns, maybe you have not consistantly praised for recall. It is no use recalling the dog then telling him off. If you called me and then told me off I wouldn't come back to you again either. This may or may not be the case, you know which.

In any case you need a training school, look for one which uses food rewards near you and life will change if you are consistant.

The dog is not trying to upset you, he is trying to please you, he does not understand your signals, he doesn't know what you want him to do. If your sit stays were solid he would not barge past to get in the car, this is lack of training, not the fault of the dog. You need to train solid sit stays or waits. try

wait voice and hand signal

pivot in front of dog

count 5 seconds

return and praise feed and cuddle

when your wait is solid at 5 seconds move on to 10 the 20 then 30 etc etc till he is rock solid and waits out of sight, remember to praise and feed for each achievment. Do not move from 5 second wait till you have absolutely perfected 10 in a row, then on to 10 seconds and so on.

good luck and go and join a class soon, for you and for your bright dog.

If you want a magical immediate solution there aren't any, you need to work hard every seconmd you are with him by showing him and teaching him with kindness, food and praise.

[Kirty]

Thanks for all the advice. I must sound like an idiot - I love my dogs, and have raised them exactly the same way, but Maisie is a great, and Champa is shocking! It really upsets me because like I said, I am finding it really hard to like him right now!

I would like to do agility with both of my dogs, but Champa has a problem with his shoulder where he goes lame every now and then (we spent hundreds on x-rays which showed nothing, and the vets have no idea what it is). He can only do so much running or jumping before he goes lame, and surprisingly swimming seems to aggravate it the worst? Maisie will be doing agility as soon as we get to Class 3.

[Kirty]

Just to confirm - CHAMPA DOES NOT STEAL MY SHOES! He steals OTHER PEOPLE'S shoes and EATS them! I mean completely gone, except for the rubber sole!

I have started obedience and will be attending every Sunday. He has been trained at home and knows sit, drop, stay, come and heel, but will only do them when he feels like it. He will do them in a 'fake' situation. I practise almost every day at the park and he is perfect. Also perfect at obedience, but in real life situations, he ignores everything I say. I have always used praise but not food - he gets too excited when food is around and can't concentrate. I only ever tell him off when he has done something naughty, which is why he hides when he has been naughty (like when he destroyed MIL's plants, he hid when I came outside. As soon as he hides, I know he has done something wrong! Any other time I go outside, he is right there, all happy). I have never told him off after recalling him.

I also honestly don't think this dog is trying to please me! He doesn't care what I want, he cares about what he wants - which is why he is perfect at meal times and never any other time! Food is the only thing he cares about.

[Erny]

Yikes, sounds like a right bastard!

Nope - no dog is that. It seems that his "teaching" hasn't been consistent, nor black and white. He thinks he can do these things simply because he's been able to before. Time to take control. "NILIF" as others have suggested. "Triangle of Temptation (K9 Force)" as also suggested. And when you want him to do something (eg sit and stay seated) be in a position where you have the control to follow through when he breaks the position.

I haven't read right through all the posts, but if you don't go to training, or haven't been before where you have learnt HOW to train a dog to the level of obedience you require, I'd suggest you look into it. And, by the sounds of it, you need to do this soon. Remember always though, it's not the dog's fault. It's the fault of the training.

ETA: Just caught the fact that you've started obedience training. Good. The reason your dog works for you in "fake" (as you put it) situations is because he is pairing your body language with that of what is required of him. In "real life" situations, your body language is different and I expect you move about, turn your back etc. etc. ...... all stuff he hasn't been trained in. This is the kind of stuff you need to do to proof your dog in training, so he will know that (eg) "sit" means "sit" even though you're doing other stuff. Dogs are simple thinkers, and they think in terms of images and sequences. They don't reason. If you teach "sit" when you're standing up straight and looking right at him, he'll think that's when he's supposed to sit. If you don't teach "sit" when you're doing other things (such as turning your back and focusing on Maise), Champa's quite right to think he doesn't have to "sit" or "leave" or whatever anymore. Sounds like you've taught him well ...... but just not in enough applications under enough distraction. Good luck. Keep patient. If you "lose it" remember, it's not Champa's fault. Go yell at a statue or something, but not Champa.

Edited June 8, 2006 by Erny

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Spot on Erny!!!

I have an IG that was a serious abuse case. He also has a disease that means he can ONLY eat Hills Ultra ZD. He makes it his mission to eat whatever he can get his paws on inc poo in the park etc. If he gets the other dogs' food, whose fault is it really? It is mine because I have control over all of this. I can blame him but he is only a dog,doing what comes naturally. After 6 years with me he has not forgotten that he was once found unconscious and near death due to being starved .... he will never get over his food obsession.

[jaybeece]

Yikes, sounds like a right bastard!

Nope - no dog is that.

I know, I know. I'm not trying to humanise him or anything. It's stubborness mixed with intelligence that makes for a dog that is challenging and needs clear rules set.

Regardless of this I call it bastard behaviour because it simplifies the explanation

[KitKat]

It's ok...he's not a 'right bastard'...but he can still be a 'SOB' ;)

But yeah...would have to say the same as the others...NILIF and TOT. He's playing you at this point, when you want him to do something...mean it...use that motherish tone on him :D (i do find the 'mother tone' works a lot...lol) Don't touch him to correct him, use voice or a pop of the lead - He knows what you want so there's no need to guide his butt to the ground for example.

And most of all...hang in there! As soon as you get fustrated - stop, put him away if needs be...but step away from the situation. But like i said...hang in there...you will get there and just think...you'll be able to look back and go..."that was how he was like - now see how good he is" ;)

[MrsD]

When I ask him to sit at the curb, I say "SIT" in a firm voice, and he does what I said above. I then pull up on the lead, push his bottom down and say "SIT" again, then "good dog" in a happy voice. But it makes no difference. He still does it at EVERY curb.

One comment from me on the sitting at the curb thing - by telling him to sit & then telling him to sit again & putting him in position, all you are doing is teaching him to ignore your first command! Think about how much easier it is for a dog to learn a bad habit than it is to learn a good one - why would he sit on the first command when he knows you are going to tell him to do it again & probably scratch his backside putting him in position the 2nd time while you are at it? :D If he doesnt do it the first time - correct him & make him do it & then lots of praise or food or whatever reward you want to give him, but don't tell him to do it again! It's not like when you are training & the dog isnt quite sure what you want, he knows the command & telling him the command over & over again is only reinforcing that he doesnt have to do it the first time.

Sounds like you are doing (& have done) a good job teaching him stuff doing it by yourself , but as someone else mentioned, you need to make him rocksolid on all the things. To do that, you need to proof him in heaps of different situations etc as someone else mentioned, but the most important thing is that you mustnt let him get away with it if he does something wrong! So in your getting in the car scenario (leaving out all the things that happened afterwards), when you tell him to wait, make sure you are standing on the end of his lead or get someone to stand behind him with a light line on his collar standing on it etc. So if he does break, he cant get into the car (reward) or get the food (another reward), all he gets is stopped, then told "no" (or whatever you do to correct him) & put back in position. You can work out ways to do this for just about every situation when you give him a command. The idea is that he should never think that he can get away with it, let alone know he can ;) .

Taking him to obedience will help (even if you think it wont) as it will put him in different situations each week, especially as you get higher in the classes which will also help to proof him in the exercises. Also having an experienced instructor there to suggest things & generally oversee what you are doing can only be a good thing .

Good luck with him, just remember, dont give up ;) .

[Kirty]

Thanks everyone for the advice, and even more for the encouragement! Sometimes I just feel like throwing the towel in with this dog, but I love him and I am not the sort of person to just give up on my pets, or offload them onto someone else. I will persist with the training and be more strict. I will work extra hard at dog obedience with him and make sure I practise lots at home.

I so desperately want to spoil my dogs (my cats have every toy, bed, treat, etc available!) but I can't because anything nice I get them, gets destroyed. I hope one day I will be able to buy them gorgeous coats and collars, and know they can wear them without ruining them.

Also, what is training in drive? Praise, pats and food don't seem to work with this dog. Do you think training in drive would?

[Jefe's owners]

Again, triangle of temptation will do the trick. You'll notice change in no time. Another suggestion is that you book a behaviour assestment with K9 force.

[Erny]

Have you taught this dog to know when he doesn't have to do something anymore? In otherwords, when you command "sit" and he sits, does he have anything to go by to know when he doesn't have to sit anymore? Many people don't think about this, and assume their dog should know when they still want them to sit and when they don't. . If you leave the dog to figure that one out for themselves, it is not the dog who is wrong when he/she gets up .... it is a training fault.

KK:

... He's playing you at this point ....

I don't actually agree with this either, sorry KK. By the sounds of it, the dog's not playing anybody. He's just responding to the training he's received. None of this is the dog's fault nor the dog's doing. It's not that I'm judging the OP here - congratulations by taking the responsible step of attending obedience school to learn. But I really want to make a point of getting it out of anyone's head/thoughts that the dog is doing anything else but responding to the law of learning. IE "For every behaviour there is a consequence." Take some time to ponder on that one. It is the answer for every reason behind every behaviour.