jaybeece Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 The difference as I understand it is that a proper "alpha roll" is done with an aggressive note to it. The dog is basically forced into a submissive position and often the owner will growl at the dog. Merely rolling the dog gently onto it's side/back doesn't sound all that bad to me at all. I do this with my dog mostly as part of playing/tummy rubs, but also to reinforce trust as it's such a vunerable position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clicking Mad Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 (edited) ... Edited January 8, 2008 by Clicking Mad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 (edited) . Edited May 8, 2009 by cavNrott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybeece Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 It's the aggressive "growling" attitude of the handler that is making the difference?What if you dog doesn't want to go into a gentle roll on it's side or back? Is that when a "submissive down" (as has been described by Shek) becomes an "alpha roll"? Sam. It's more the aggressive nature of the roll, not just the growling. It's forcing the dog to do something it may or may not be pleased about doing in a fairly unpleasant manner. Personally I wouldn't be forcing a dog to roll over if it didn't want to, that's just asking for trouble. If it's not happy going into that position it signifies that there's bigger problems with trust/dominance that should be worked on by evaluating everything about the dog's life and making lifestyle changes accordingly (IMO anyway). I imagine that's what the link OP is all about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 K9: The Alpha Roll was supposed to be a pplied to a dog when the dog was exhibiting rank behaviour. The technique was to grab the dog by the loose skin around the dogs neck & throwing the dog on its back. Then you jump on top & hold down the fighting dog & give firm eye contact until the dog looks away.. Or you lose the fight & the dog rips off your face... The Monks of New Skete wrote a book a long time ago, (1960's) documenting this method. They felt it was a copy of what they had seen wild dogs do. With carefull observation one can see it doesnt happen this way... When the Alpha Dog approaches the submissive dog extends one hind leg & the opposing front leg, leaning itself over, then it turns its muzzle around to lick or groom the Alpha. If the Alpha requires more submission, it walks in closer, applying Alpha Pressure & the submissive dog rolls over voluntarily... There is no force... People who roll their dog over arent triggering rank drive so this does not really help with any type of leadership... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffo Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 what does rank drive have to do with leadership k9? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clicking Mad Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 (edited) ... Edited January 8, 2008 by Clicking Mad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 K9: Rank drive is the dogs desire to elevate its pack position... The Alpha Roll is supposed to trigger rank drive so the dog tries & fails... If you dont trigger the drive, nothing has been gained... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shekhina Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 CM... When puppy buyers were taught the dominance down it's main purpose in my mind was so that the dog would lie still and be calm for examinations. While my dogs are lying on their side I check their teeth, in between their toes, in their ears and run my hands over their body. The length of time that the dogs have to stay still on the ground was built up over weeks and weeks of daily practice...when they were baby puppies I would release them as soon as they were still and quiet, now I ask for much longer periods of time of them being calm. Makes for simple vet visits and easy claw cutting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 K9: & Shekina there isnt anything wrong with that other than the name, its not the dog going down under submission, its just a position like the sit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffo Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 so if your dog doesnt bite your head off, does it achieve anything? or does it just make the dog not trust you? it will never put you in a leadership position will it? not a proper one anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybeece Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 (edited) So jaybeece, when are you actually getting this "gentle roll"? When are you asking for it? Just when hanging out, or is there a trigger as to when you'll do this? It's mostly just when we've been wrestling on the floor. I'll push him gently and he basically falls onto his side on his own. I'll then give him lots of praise and a good tummy rub, also work on his feet (he's a little funny about them) and make sure he's comfortable in general. It's just one of a lot of things we do for bonding/trust. I also work on keeping him happy about me and food, touching his face/lips to make teeth checks at the vet a bit easier, as well as lifting his legs up one by one and giving them a rub down. He's a fairly dominant dog so I guess this is also reinforcing in him that being second to me is not only ok but something really good with a lot of benefits. Edited June 14, 2006 by jaybeece Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clicking Mad Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 (edited) ... Edited January 8, 2008 by Clicking Mad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 He's a fairly dominant dog so I guess this is also teaching him that being second to me is not only ok but something really good with a lot of benefits. K9: Its actually is not doing much if anything to add to your leadership status... Dams can be rolled on their back in play as they dont see it as a leaderhip thing, sometimes if pups get a bit rough the Dam will jump up & correct them, this is when t he Dam see's it as a leadership move...Its of no harm, but it wont be doing what you think it is.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shekhina Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 K9: & Shekina there isnt anything wrong with that other than the name, its not the dog going down under submission, its just a position like the sit... I think the name may have come from the fact that when the dogs were learning you had to keep your arm over them and growl when they moved, although my dogs don't move when I have them lying on the ground, well, not normally...and if they do, all they need is their name said and they know they're being naughty, bump goes the head back on the ground again...yes mum :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybeece Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 He's a fairly dominant dog so I guess this is also teaching him that being second to me is not only ok but something really good with a lot of benefits.K9: Its actually is not doing much if anything to add to your leadership status... Dams can be rolled on their back in play as they dont see it as a leaderhip thing, sometimes if pups get a bit rough the Dam will jump up & correct them, this is when t he Dam see's it as a leadership move...Its of no harm, but it wont be doing what you think it is.... That's why I changed it to "reinforcing" :D I'm certainly not expecting this activity to be what teaches him that I'm the boss I just figure that if anything it'll help reinforce everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now