Dog Aggression Punishment

[Rom]

A woman that I know punishes her dog for its dog aggressive outbursts by pushing its head onto the ground and yelling and screaming at it. While I admit that her dog is generally well behaved and social, I feel that this method of dealing with the situation doesn't take into account the reasons for the aggressive outbursts and try to deal with them and/or teach the dog alternate ways to deal with other dogs that it feels the need to lash out at. I just don't feel that its a long term solution.

How do DOLers deal with there dogs in this type of situation? Is this an accepted method of dealing with the problem?

[my_sibe_owns_me]

I tend to use the submit roll for my dog...but I dont yell and I dont hold her head down. I simple get her on her side, and place her in a cage afterwards.

But this doesnt work for every1 because their dog may turn around and bit them.

Many people dont agree with how I deal with it but at the same time many do.

But there are a million ways to deal with a dog and yelling at a soft dog will fix nothing and I dont think yelling at any dog will fix a promble..only time and efort will.

[wyvernblade]

I think she'd need to understand the reason behind the agression first,. If the dog is fear aggressive and makes an outburst at another dog out of fright, then what she's doing would only make the situation worse. Also when dogs are in that 'mode' they are in high drive and nothing we say or do gets through to them. I have a fear aggressive GSD and if he has a go at another dog while out, I walk him off somewhere until he calms down and I try and work him at a distance he's happy with and can focus on me. I don't care if my dogs don't get along with other dogs, I didn't get dogs because I wanted them to be everybody's best friend, I wanted them to be mine! LOL And if they are scared it's like me being scared of spiders, and someone putting me in a room full of them and then hitting me every time I reacted. Wouldn't fix my problem....................

[Nekhbet]

Gee wonder why the dogs problem is getting worst ...

NEVER push down or restrain a dog because its COUNTERPRODUCTIVE

NEVER scream or engage an animal that is anxious or aggressive

she has to start from the beginning. Unfortunately this dog has learned that it has to get at the other animal before it gets its head mashed into the ground and screamed at.

This woman has to teach the dog to trust her again, frankly I wouldnt (actually I'd grab her head and push it into the dirt for treating her dog like that but thats a whole separate issue)

She needs a few things

-obedience training for the dog

- distraction training for her dog - teach the animal that other dogs are nothing to bother about

- only let her dog engage with dogs they know, no off lead parks or random hellos

- teach the dog the 'leave' command and to eat on command. Easily done, hold the food in front of the dogs face and say 'LEAVE'. When the dog leaves it say 'EAT' or whatever and let the dog eat the food calmly. If the dog snaps at her hand she turns away and hides the food until the dog settles.

- hand feeding the dog and rewarding it for eating and behaving

- bad behaviour is treated with removal of good things not a physical punishment - ie dog snaps at another the owner quickly does an about turn and gets the dog to sit. Reward for concentrating on the owner and ignoring the other dog.

Sibe - even for your dog rolls are UNACCEPTABLE, especially for a dog of your pups age. Also you crate after it calms down so it is being punished for 1) settling down 2) allowing itself to be rolled over. Dogs understand in the way of one action after another. The roll just means the owner has completely lost control of the situation and has to physically dominate the dog. Then its crated for allowing itself to be caught. Kind of like yelling at your dog when it eventually listens and returns, all the dog understands is its being punished for what happened that second.

Your pup would benefit from more obedience training through drive, and you working on manipulating the dogs wants and needs to your advantage instead of fighting physically. Alpha rolls show the dog the owner is NOT a leader but just another dog fighting with it - hence your problem is never solved. And you do this when your dog is already well into fighting or grabbed another dog, you have not solved the problem so get ready for years of bite - roll - crate, bite - roll - crate.

Edited June 7, 2006 by Nekhbet

[lab and poodle]

This woman has to teach the dog to trust her again, frankly I wouldnt (actually I'd grab her head and push it into the dirt for treating her dog like that but thats a whole separate issue)

I reckon that we should start applying adversives to humans rather than the poor dogs too. I am sick to my back teeth of seeing poor dogs mangled , hung by it's front feet, corrected so harshly that I have to turn away, conditioned to be fearful,as my obedient loose lead walking 12 1/2 year old lab approaches them. I reckon we are bringing up a nation of dog morons. I swear that the nest time I see someone doing this crap, I will give them an earful.

The standard is as we approach,

S***head handler twists lead around arm and pulls dog away. Sound effects are NO! NO!, or bad boy or something similar. Avoidance path is on to busy road. Highly intelligent. Standard excuse is "my dog isn't very good with other dogs" .!! I wonder why.

Next is as above PLUS lift dog off front legs with choker. Der I wonder why dog turns fear aggresive. Nothing to do with the handler.

Next is to do first, but have JRT slip collar and embed itself in my dog's neck. After getting dog off, owner punches JRT in face. I did go eye ball to eye ball on this one.

Lovely larrikan of a large adolescent cross approaches us. On GL. Walks pretty straight but has slight look at my dog. Not on heel, not on attention. Gets one of the harshest corrections I have seen on a dog yet.

In our area it is rare to not have one of the above happen. If you add up the unrestrained S/M crosses with bad tempers who constantly have a go at us and our dog you wonder where the sense went. This is a cross section of what happens to us on a daily basis.

[my_sibe_owns_me]

Gee wonder why the dogs problem is getting worst ...

NEVER push down or restrain a dog because its COUNTERPRODUCTIVE

NEVER scream or engage an animal that is anxious or aggressive

she has to start from the beginning. Unfortunately this dog has learned that it has to get at the other animal before it gets its head mashed into the ground and screamed at.

This woman has to teach the dog to trust her again, frankly I wouldnt (actually I'd grab her head and push it into the dirt for treating her dog like that but thats a whole separate issue)

She needs a few things

-obedience training for the dog

- distraction training for her dog - teach the animal that other dogs are nothing to bother about

- only let her dog engage with dogs they know, no off lead parks or random hellos

- teach the dog the 'leave' command and to eat on command. Easily done, hold the food in front of the dogs face and say 'LEAVE'. When the dog leaves it say 'EAT' or whatever and let the dog eat the food calmly. If the dog snaps at her hand she turns away and hides the food until the dog settles.

- hand feeding the dog and rewarding it for eating and behaving

- bad behaviour is treated with removal of good things not a physical punishment - ie dog snaps at another the owner quickly does an about turn and gets the dog to sit. Reward for concentrating on the owner and ignoring the other dog.

Sibe - even for your dog rolls are UNACCEPTABLE, especially for a dog of your pups age. Also you crate after it calms down so it is being punished for 1) settling down 2) allowing itself to be rolled over. Dogs understand in the way of one action after another. The roll just means the owner has completely lost control of the situation and has to physically dominate the dog. Then its crated for allowing itself to be caught. Kind of like yelling at your dog when it eventually listens and returns, all the dog understands is its being punished for what happened that second.

Your pup would benefit from more obedience training through drive, and you working on manipulating the dogs wants and needs to your advantage instead of fighting physically. Alpha rolls show the dog the owner is NOT a leader but just another dog fighting with it - hence your problem is never solved. And you do this when your dog is already well into fighting or grabbed another dog, you have not solved the problem so get ready for years of bite - roll - crate, bite - roll - crate.

I dont always use the roll only when she in it for the kill...I dont know how to exsplain it but you are right I use it when I am not in control, when there is no other way to gain fouce. :rolleyes:

But I did look at the web site you gave me and she is on a leash no matter where she is and she is crated when I am not around.

She hasnt had a chance to bite another dog because 1) she is on a leash and 2) I now stop her while she's charging off to bite another dog instead of the second she goes to bite down. 3) she knows what "leave it" means but she tends to zone me out which is no big deal now that shes on a leash and I can keep her from running off while I gain her fouces and last but not least 4) with age, both of us are growing wiser of one another.

[Dogsfevr]

sibe remember you want to show this dog so the roll is of no benefit in the show world nor will you be able to do that in the ring or outside.I personally agree it is a totally useless procedure that after the 2 parties have battled each other no one has one & if you have to keep doing it it just shows the dog hasnt learnt.

[Erny]

She hasnt had a chance to bite another dog because ... I now stop her while she's charging off to bite another dog instead of the second she goes to bite down.

Try to increase your powers of recognising the very early warning signs that your dog is thinking about doing something, and your timing to act upon it first. Stopping your dog "while she's charging off to bite" is still later than it should ideally and most effectually be. Having someone video you and your dog for you so you can learn these prior signs will probably be a big help to you too.

You need to teach your dog that charging off to bite is not intrinsic to her survival. If you don't, she will continue to believe that it is, and her confidence in this tactic will remain. Stopping the "charge" does not work towards modifying her emotions towards the "other dog".

Edited June 7, 2006 by Erny

[Rom]

Thanks for the replies everyone! When I get a printer I'm going to print this page out and show it to her!! (If thats allowed!)

[Nekhbet]

go for it!

also have a look at K9 Force Training in Drive and Triangle of Temptation.

if the dog has serious issues with other dogs she also should seek the help of a qualified trainer who has dealt with aggression before. Its really something that needs evaluation as well. If its through fear, defence, true aggression etc they all need slightly different methods (thats in dailiy life not just around other dogs) to really work.

Tell her to avoid people like BarkBusters and go for someone qualified in handling these dogs. Go to a training session and see how they work, it should not involve physical punishment (maybe a prong/check collar and muzzles if required for safety) but no rolling, hitting, or harsh jerking of the animal. I train with people who help aggressive dogs and you would be suprised how shifting of focus and increasing the owners control level in drive can really change a dog in a short amount if time without resorting to a physical fight or the owner having to yank the dogs head off.

Sibe I hope the leerburg website works for you and good to hear you are getting control!

Edited June 7, 2006 by Nekhbet

[Rusky]

Rom have you asked her why she does that? and what exactly she thinks she is achieving?

I have never understood why people would shout at their dogs unless they are a distance away to call them or to give instructions. I cannot understand at all how pushing the dogs head into the ground could avoid aggression I would have thought quite the contrary.

The poor dog needs direction not abuse and the handler needs some basic skills in dog handling. Is there an obedience school nearby which may have some people who could talk to her and help her overcome her aggression towards her dog?

Well I was half way through and decided to read others replies, nekhbet has posted my feelings very well.

I hope this lady gets some help. I hope the poor dog gets a better life.

[my_sibe_owns_me]

sibe remember you want to show this dog so the roll is of no benefit in the show world nor will you be able to do that in the ring or outside.I personally agree it is a totally useless procedure that after the 2 parties have battled each other no one has one & if you have to keep doing it it just shows the dog hasnt learnt.

Oh god I would never even think aout rolling her at shows! Shes soo fouced on me at shows that half the time she doesnt even look around.

She just thinks somthing/someplace is hers. for ex. one day she decide no other dog could be around me..she would jump in front of me and start barking and went off to bite my other dogs...It took me a day or two to break her from it, I just had to teach her that other dogs where a good thing..but now she does it when a dog is anywhere that she doesnt think it should be.

I will use you advice erny. I dont need to vidoe tape her because I have been watching her very closly for the last mounth and i can now read her like a book. I'll just have to gain fouces when she starts to glare...I truely hope it works.

I have also realized how differnt sibes are from most breeds...I did read for 2 yrs about sibes before I got my pup but somewhere down the line i guess I forgot to notist how stuborn they can be. lol. Their so much differnt from any of the other breeds I have raised but i believe its main because sibes have a very high prey drive.

[Rom]

Unfortunately, this woman is an ex-obedience instructor. She has a group of people who follow her methods still because otherwise her dogs are so well trained and obedient. Although her older boy is just not the keen to work dog that he used to be 2 years ago and she has actually been marked down at trials for his demeanour (sp?) in the ring. She is very set in her ways and really does not take notice of anything said about such issues. I have really not like seeing her treat dogs the way she does when they lash out at other dogs and have really felt crash tackling her....but I'm fairly new to this game......

[Miranda]

I'm far from an expert dog trainer, but this woman's methods sound very old fashioned to me, what used to be called 'old school'. I would also class the alpha roll (terrible training tool IMO) as very 'old school'. I don't agree with this sort of training at all

[jaybeece]

I wish I knew where these people get the idea that punishing a dog for aggression is a good idea

When I was first learning how to handle my dog's aggression problems I had a lot of different people (both instructors and dog owners) try to help and unfortunately the majority were of the opinion that a heavy correction was appropriate once he'd started lunging. I stupidly took any advice people could offer.

This advice has proven the biggest setback yet in working him through his problems as not only did it not discourage his behaviour, but it also damaged his trust in me as a strong leader which is absolutely vital. Now I've taken a gentler (albeit still firm) approach to things he's improved immensly and his trust in me has never been stronger. It's frustrating to think that if we'd had good advice from the beginning that he could be much better by now, but I guess hindsight's a bitch.

Rom - I just can't believe that a professional obedient instructor could be so misguided as to do that to their own dog. Can't she see in his body language and behaviour that it's not doing the dog any good?

Edited June 8, 2006 by jaybeece

[Kavik]

jaybeece I was given the same information when trying to work through Zoe's dog aggression and it didn't work. Corrections only seemed to make it worse. Now I try to focus her on me instead of the other dog, using food and lots of praise for attention. Dog aggression is a pain in the bum .

[jaybeece]

Dog aggression is a pain in the bum .

Indeed it is! But as a wise trainer told me a couple of weeks ago "Just think about how easy it will be to deal with your future dogs!". She had a point alright ;)

In a lot of ways having a "special" dog is a valuable experience though as it forces you to really pay attention to how they're feeling and acting so the bond you can develop with them is incredible. I know that I'm a better dog owner for it and any dogs I have in the future will benefit from this immensely.

I also find any improvements in his behaviour incredibly rewarding so it's all worthwhile :D Today we walked past a fence and some dogs came out of no-where. Normally he would go absolutely off his head at them but today he did a little lunge, then stopped and sat calmly next to me. My head almost exploded with happiness

Edited June 8, 2006 by jaybeece

[centitout]

I wish I knew where these people get the idea that punishing a dog for aggression is a good idea

When I was first learning how to handle my dog's aggression problems I had a lot of different people (both instructors and dog owners) try to help and unfortunately the majority were of the opinion that a heavy correction was appropriate once he'd started lunging. I stupidly took any advice people could offer.

This advice has proven the biggest setback yet in working him through his problems as not only did it not discourage his behaviour, but it also damaged his trust in me as a strong leader which is absolutely vital. Now I've taken a gentler (albeit still firm) approach to things he's improved immensly and his trust in me has never been stronger. It's frustrating to think that if we'd had good advice from the beginning that he could be much better by now, but I guess hindsight's a bitch.

Rom - I just can't believe that a professional obedient instructor could be so misguided as to do that to their own dog. Can't she see in his body language and behaviour that it's not doing the dog any good?

i had a very aggressive male bloodhound,he hated any small dogs(was not his fault).we tried focusing his attention elsewhere,rewards etc and absolutely nothing worked.this was a 50 kg dog that we aquired as an adult so he had firmly entrenched behaviour .he became extremely territorial and if there was an in season bitch he also became aggressive to the other dogs i had and towards me.put a 'HALTI" on him and he instantly became easier to handle and was more focused on the thing on his head than other dogs.cant recommend them enough and we will start all our pups in them from now on.

[jaybeece]

i had a very aggressive male bloodhound,he hated any small dogs(was not his fault).we tried focusing his attention elsewhere,rewards etc and absolutely nothing worked.this was a 50 kg dog that we aquired as an adult so he had firmly entrenched behaviour .he became extremely territorial and if there was an in season bitch he also became aggressive to the other dogs i had and towards me.put a 'HALTI" on him and he instantly became easier to handle and was more focused on the thing on his head than other dogs.cant recommend them enough and we will start all our pups in them from now on.

I reakon Halti's definately have their merits, but only when the dog's close by you. If they're out in front and lunge suddenly, it's not a healthy movement for their neck. I also cringe knowing that the nose area is very sensitive so a sudden jerk can't be doing it any good.

That said, I use one combined with a choker. The choker is attached to his lead and that's where most of the control is. He wears the halti with a stubby lead attached. If he begins to react I'll grab the stubby lead and pull his head around. Being able to redirect his head quickly makes a world of difference and it means I'm a lot more confident about handling him in stressful situations as he can easily pull me over (and has before).

And yeah, I understand the inability to gain focus or use rewards. I've given up entirely on distracting him with toys or food and his focus leaves a hell of a lot to be desired. TOT has been in use for several weeks so he's got the eye contact down at dinner time and before we leave for walks but once those paws touch concrete I'd be lucky to get more than a glance from him. It's a work in progress

[my_sibe_owns_me]

I wish I knew where these people get the idea that punishing a dog for aggression is a good idea

When I was first learning how to handle my dog's aggression problems I had a lot of different people (both instructors and dog owners) try to help and unfortunately the majority were of the opinion that a heavy correction was appropriate once he'd started lunging. I stupidly took any advice people could offer.

This advice has proven the biggest setback yet in working him through his problems as not only did it not discourage his behaviour, but it also damaged his trust in me as a strong leader which is absolutely vital. Now I've taken a gentler (albeit still firm) approach to things he's improved immensly and his trust in me has never been stronger. It's frustrating to think that if we'd had good advice from the beginning that he could be much better by now, but I guess hindsight's a bitch.

Rom - I just can't believe that a professional obedient instructor could be so misguided as to do that to their own dog. Can't she see in his body language and behaviour that it's not doing the dog any good?

I too wished I had gotten the right advice from the start. From day one (7 1/2 weeks) my pup tried to jump out and bit someone over her toy...I didnt alpha roll her then I just had to teach her to "release"( Because she tried to to eat the toy when I went to take it way.) and never gave the toy back. and then she went throw a I am boss over evrey1 thing (Biting other dogs to get her way) So I went around and asked many people and trainers, (Mostly people who show dogs and a sibe breeder from my area) and 80% of them told me to use the alpha roll. But I believe I have realized its a short term fix and you need a new method to get the long term fix.