Food Rewards

[Guest Tiggy]

I train with a clicker and food rewards which my Instructors have always encouraged but my new Instructor doesn't use food, his reasons being it takes away your other skills such as voice and touch, which I kind of agree with. Does anyone train without food? I just don't think you could get the same focus without food but I could be wrong I'm a newbie.

[Guest Tiggy]

I just wanted to add the Instructor isn't telling us not to use food but that was his opinion.

[kaywoman68]

OH and I were encouraged to be positive and use food when we attended Kindy with our 2. We were still encouraged to use it in Beginners but we were taught some hand signals and to use our voice to attract our dogs' attention.

We were told on Thursday (we graduated from Beginners) that starting next week when we're in Intermediate, the instructors will start encouraging us to gradually ease out out luring. We will still reward them with treats and praise when they've done something right of course.

We've been told we can't depend on food solely to get our dogs to pay attention to us. Definite try to use hand signals, clickers, and voice as well as food because one day you might not have food around and you want your dog to be able to come to you when you call/click/signal

[jaybeece]

I started out totally against food training but will now use it from time to time for new, more difficult tricks when he gets it 100% right. Generally though I find he doesn't learn with food as well as he does with praise. He spends more time looking for food than he does about thinking what he should be doing.

I think it really depeneds on the personality of the dog.

[lab and poodle]

" train with a clicker and food rewards which my Instructors have always encouraged but my new Instructor doesn't use food, his reasons being it takes away your other skills such as voice and touch, which I kind of agree with. Does anyone train without food? I just don't think you could get the same focus without food but I could be wrong I'm a newbie. "

I train with food, toys, any reward I can grab a hold of. You can find all the info you wnat about what might work and what dosen't in extensive trials that were done in the 60's 70's 80's. A fair no were on dogs. This is what I do. I lure to get the behaviour then change straight away to a click. I then generalise the behaviour (put it in different places and times). I then extend the behaviour, and then proof it. All along I treat,treat,treat treat,For the standard of behaviour I am working with. I very early on teach my dogs that it is a complete waste of time to expect a reward to come from a particular place. I get fantastic focus from my dogs with or without food as they know I am a high probability reward machine. If I thinned down the treats too much or too soon this would not happen. I also use my voice, touch, toys whatever gets the point across at the time.It is not either or. I think early "thinning out" is probably the second most common mistake behind really bad timing that inexperienced dog trainers make.

Monkeys are probably more intelligent than dogs, and when they used they in unmanned spacecraft, they rewarded them in the thousands of times before sending them into space.

I also must add that some dogs with some personailities can handle this early thinning out, but they wouldn't be my first choice of a trialling dog IMHO.

[shoemonster]

I train with food and I don't think I will ever stop!

I guess it depends on the dog, but my 2 are very food orientated and will work 100 times better for a treat than anything else, they consider food to be their god!!!!!

They will work without food, though if they no there is no chance of getting food they can be harder to work with, but they will still do what I ask, though it may be slower and less energetic

There are still young (10 months) and doing well

Edited May 27, 2006 by shoemonster

[yogibear]

food like anything is a training tool its a great reward system and gets fast results

never think of geting rid of the food just become more unpredictable in when and how often so they dont seeit as now i get nothing think of it like the poker machine people keep going because every now and then they win something if they never did they would give up and if they always did they would go but with less enthusiasm.

also think of environmenta reward dog wants to go play ok first i want ten seconds of eye contact or a stay or heeling then releasae to play want out the door sit first also dont always go get the food then ask for the behaviour often ask then go to the fridge so they learn that just coz it aint on you doesnt mean you wont get it. we have pots of food around the house and im asking for things at any time and may go to the furthest pot to reward i may reward with access to something or a play with a toy

shoemonster yes when they know damn well you have nothing expect less but reward big surprise them with something special you had tucked away in the fridge they will soon learn that even when it seems like mum has nothing she does. Also be aware of your body and voice ofetn when a person new to reward training frinds themselves with nothing to gve they worry and it shows in their demeanour you always have a rough and tumbe a kiss and cuddle or the oppurtunity to go find dad and jump all over him

Use toys in the same fashion and try not to think of training using any method as a forward only thing for example my dog works very well in his familiar surrounds he is confident and at trial standard for open but last monday night we went to a new venus there were trains it was indoors and loud music new dogs now here i am not about to ask for trial level work or not have good rewards here we asked for glimpse of attention huge reward why because hin this environment he was nervour unsure so we went way back to basics now this week i will ask for a bit more and b the end of the six weeks he should be relaxed confident not feeling pressured etc

Last thing even when you are aiming to use very little food for an exercise always reward those really good ones i see it as pay for a job wll done

[Alpha]

Having been originally trained by the correction chain/loud voice methodology, I was started food training when I saw the results of it after I managed to teach my ACD to "speak" in one day for an ad he was in. I used food as a reward not an incentive but it worked the same, he got the idea pretty quick and our lives changed from then on. I did not use food constantly once he could complete the exercise but occassionally so he never knew when it would be coming and he had to complete it in full to get it..no half measures, crooked sits, lax returns or half hearted (he never was half hearted in ANYTHING) responses. When I was training our bitch as a pup I used food for attention and to teach her an exercise, as she got older and more proficient...the food became less and was given as a reward along with pats and hugs, she is a very responsive dog and would not get into play mode with hyped up praise like the dog did. Our pup trains with food and "bridge words" and food is very very big on his agenda for doing something...has not quite got the concept of straight sits, recall to me, not past me, and playing nicely with others but we are only 7 month old ;) Food ;when used properly is great, but I know some dogs who don't respond to it

[bloss344]

I used food rewards to train Bob and have it admit it's a great quick way to train a food motivated dog. However, Bob then trained me to give him treats if I wanted him to do something. If he didn't get a treat twice in a row he'd refuse to do anything unless I showed him the food, therefore it becoming a bribe, it became impossible to just phase out the food, if I wanted to keep teaching him new things. Also at obedience training he'd be much more focused on my pocket or hand than on me and also would break stays/waits if he felt it was time for a treat and he knew I had one.Now we are retraining Bob to realise that just because I have treats it doesn't mean that he gets one for each thing he does for me. Slowly he's getting the idea, but it's harder than originally training with treats. Sometimes he just sits there and looks at me as if to say 'show me the money' For the past three weeks we've gone to Obedience without any treats at all and have found he's more responsive to me than he was in the past, he even learned how to weave in and out cones yesterday with my voice and hand encouragement, which was a first. Rather than the treats being a motivation they became an obsession for Bob.

I was talking to the chief instructor at Obedience Club yesterday and she said they are going to incorporate how to give treats correctly and how to phase them out into the classes which I think is great. Too late for us though.

On the whole though I think food rewards are great, especially when they can be phased out over time, bribes well, they can become a problem.

[hlk70g]

I train with food and it really works!

The thing I don't get though is that all through our training we use food - then when we go into competition they don't allow it!

Why can't we use food in CD? So many more dogs would enter and pass if we could.....and why don't they train us without food in pre-trial classes??

[lab and poodle]

"Rather than the treats being a motivation they became an obsession for Bob."

They sure can.

There are two things that have to happen to make this work for you .

One keep on raising the bar as far as performance goes. I want to see the ground shake when my dog drops. Anything much less is just not rewardable. They learn quick

Two Be unpredictable. Most inexperienced trainers are 4 step interval timers.

Three Have a look at bridging, and keep them guessing where the treats are coming. Keep them a little hungry also.

four use all the other rewards around you. Other dogs, other people, etc.

five. Never take such big steps time or distance wise that it seems ok for your dog to break a stay.

Six: Have you checked who is leader lately? really and truely?

Seven: Don't be in such a mad rush to biff the food. A lot of top trainers are still using the food at very high levels. Why do you think you need to thin it down now?

Just remember, if we are at work and our boss writes us a note saying how wonderful we are, we still expect to get a paycheck . Same for dogs. Praise generally dosen't cut it.

Any case, I am still a sucker, and had to teach my 14 week old poodle that treats don't come out of a red bag always yesterday. I think my older dog told her that I was about to pull the dog bone and loose lead stunt!!

[Canid]

It is great to read that so many people these days are prepared to use food as a means of training their dogs. Thank God the days of jerk, yank and yell are coming to an end. Food, or let's say motivation, is currently the best way to teach a dog what we want from him/her. In the process of learning, the dog does not make mistakes any more than we humans do when we are learning. The process of learning is not a mistake. But when we, or our dogs, are inappropriately corrected in the learning process, it a becomes an incomprehensible punishment that creates anxiety and stress. In this state, no being can learn effectively and usually develops an aversion to the lesson. We have no right to do that to any being, including man's best friend.

The point about using food is that it addresses the dog's prey drive in a species-specific manner, giving the dog an opportunity to give expression to his prey drive in controlled circumstances. The prey drive is flowing freely, the dog is calm and in this state can think and take in what the handler wants from him. Kevin Behan's book, Natural Dog Training, explains this really well.

Gottfried Dildei's tapes on obedience training are excellent and he clearly demonstrates the reasons for food training and how to go about it. He makes a case for food as opposed to using toys as a motivator. However, we have found that some dogs work better with a toy whilst others, as Dildei maintains, just go over the top using a toy. As in all things, it works except when it doesn't, and then the handler needs to be flexible and aware in relation to his/her dog's temperament, personality and characteristics and adjust accordingly.

Dildei uses food right throughout the dog's training and trialling career and his teams usually come out with top scores. There is an ongoing debate as to whether using food is bribery and not really training and that really, the dog should work to please its owner. Of course it is bribery, albeit very cleverly used to gain the dog's WILLING cooperation whilst at the same time working through the dog's drives. It is an excellent means of gaining the cooperation of another species that does not understand our human language.

It should be every dog handler's aim to teach his/her dog in the most humane way possible to become a cooperative member of a well functioning team consisting of two different species. As the dog has no choice in what his/her task will be i.e. obedienc, fly-ball etc. and has no choice in how this is all to happen, it is the handler's duty to ensure that the training is done from a position of knowledge (who and what the dog is and what makes it a dog), awareness, sensitivity, consistency and fairness, but NO sentimentality. Food training is currently one of the best ways of achieving this. Of course the food has to be phased out so that the dog will also work when there is no food, but this needs to be properly done under the guidance of an experienced instructor. And when properly done, the heeling itself becomes a motivator, as I so well demonstrated with my last dog and is becoming the case with my current one. Although I believe that this happens because through the correct use of food training, my dogs have learnt to trust me and to so thoroughly enjoy our work together, that simply doing an obedience routine is a motivator.

So, for your dogs' sake, keep using food, but use it correctly. :D

[lab and poodle]

"And when properly done, the heeling itself becomes a motivator, as I so well demonstrated with my last dog and is becoming the case with my current one. "

I have observed this with my older dog. He is a lab, but the idea of a bit of heeling (is it the attention, the chance to be in the thick of it, a bit of pack drive, some remembered pack drive?

Heaven knows.

One of my favourite obedience books is Schutzhund Obedience Training in Drive by Dildei and Booth. I also liked Purely positive training by Booth as well. I know a mini will never cut it in Schutzhund, but many of the principles are the same.

[Guest Tiggy]

The Instructor who was against using food wasn't there this week and our other Instructor who's the President of the club said she's going to talk to him because it's a food club.

[Rusky]

where are you training tiggy? I have been wondering since you posted because most clubs in Perth do use food for training.

[Guest Tiggy]

Midland Dog Club

[Denis Carthy]

I think the word 'reward' has almost lost its real meaning in the context of dog training.

OK, with a pup below 16 weeks I will 'lure' a dog into position e.g sit, down etc, but only in the very, very early stages, a few weeks old, that period is very important because its the imprinting period.

The sit, for instance, I will lure it into position with a treat untill the second its bottom touches the floor, by that time I have allready positioned the food in my hand in such a way (often between thumb and palm ) that the food is not accesible to the pup.

As soon as its bottom touches I instantly start to fondle and at the same time really excitedly vocalize "good" or anything you want to vocalize and then get it to play for a few secs - everything is done with excitement - when I break the play after a few secs I get up to walk away, as I am doing so I give the treat and say nothing, just move away. I do use food for many things but not to 'get the dog doing things for treats'.

I keep this up until the pup is starting to move to the sit on the hand signal (hand going over its head to position it) command, this rarely takes more than 4 - 6 repeats.

From that point I use big time fuss and lead into very short play, sometimes I might give a treat most times not, either way the pup is not expecting a treat, its best only to do this at that age once a day about 3 times per week.

Reward is any consequence any animal perceives as a consequence of its behaviour.

If a dog breaks a command when offered a treat it means the dog percieves the treat is a 'punishment' compared to the 'reward' of freedom maintained by breaking a command.

Once that happens it has 'positivly reinforced' ignoring behaviour.

In other words the 'consequence of the behaviour' of ignoring commands makes ignoring commands reward 'behaviour' -- 'punishment' and 'reward'.

Edited June 2, 2006 by Denis Carthy

[dogsong]

I trained my dogs with food, I held the food in one hand, and made hand signals with my other hand. now I can just do the hand signal, and they'll understand and automatically do what I ask. Guess it depends on the dogs...mine love the pats and praises they get after they do something right and they don't need the food as much.

[smokeysue]

Like to know. What do you all use for food rewards? Might be intestering to compare treats. And find out what is not good for them. Cheers Sue

[lab and poodle]

"If a dog breaks a command when offered a treat it means the dog percieves the treat is a 'punishment' compared to the 'reward' of freedom maintained by breaking a command.

Once that happens it has 'positivly reinforced' ignoring behaviour."

I guess this is why we have a forum.

I would suggest that the open spaces is offering a much greater "reward" than the hunk of crap (not meant rudely) in your hand from the dog's point of view. If it is so tempting ot the dog why not use it as a reward? I gree with your conclusion though, you have just rewarded ignoring behaviour. I set it up so there is no chance that this reward may happen without the stay being concluded. In my case, with my little poodle, you wont catch me doing a stay (even novice practice) for quite some time without a length of venitian blind cord attached to her collar. Hence if she breaks, there is a period of isolation in the car. Otherwise, lots of good things happen including access to the wide open spaces.