Triangle Of Temptation

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: I would, place the foof further away, and when you walk back and stand by his right side, stand one pace back, and just wait until he gains some self control and shows some self control, reward this with the marker system and he will catch on...

[spottychick]

hi k9pro

I think i mite be doin something wrong in doin this, when u take the food out, u show the food then walk away with it until the point the dog isnt goin mental for it? Then walk bak to its right side the problem i am havin is, i walk away with it, i check how the dog is, he is standin lookin at me an food, i put the food down an walk bak, by the time i get bak to him he is crazy tryin to get to the food

Do i wait for him to settle then get him 2 look at me? Am i not puting the food far enough away?

I don't know if this will help you but when I started this with Tango he did something similar.

I reckon the main thing I did that got to him was I gave him no response at all. I did this very silent (but not threatening) thing where I'd just walk out with the food, walk over and place it somewhere and go over to him. If he was looking around, looking at the food, intermittently trying to chase butterflies or anything that moved near him (which he did a lot at first LOL He was so easily distracted) or generally carrying on I would give him no interaction. I'd just stand next to (or slightly behind him) and wait for him to work out what to do or I'd just quietly go over and move the bowl further away or whatever without giving him any verbal corrections or praise. The only time I'd respond is when he settled down, sat and then looked into my eyes!!! THen he'd get a softly spoken "Yes!!" and I'd try to convey lots of quiet praise with my face and body language - but not touch him.

It was the wierdest thing for me at first, to not go "ah" when he was leaping about on the end of his lead, or say Good boy! when he sat etc, just this very quiet time (almost like meditation!!) where it was all about him figuring out what to do next without me telling him. Quite amazing the effect it had on him.

Hopefully I'm not steering you wrong with any of this - I'm no expert. It's just what worked for me.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Yes it is important not to use any correction, even verbal, the idea is for the dog to free shape the correct move, this proves to us he is invested in the program and helps us move forward.

Give him some time to settle down, he will see the light bulb!

[aussielover]

I am having trouble now with the "ok"/release command.

My puppy sits automatically but when I say ok she just keeps staring at me, I have to physically point to the food and get her to take it. Sometimes I have said OK four of five times before she will take it??? When she does eat, she gobbles it all down, so she is hungry/ wanting the food.

I ahve tried moving the food closer, This happens even if the food is only 1cm from her body.

So I'm thinking there is a drive problem? ie. she is not in drive?

ETA: She gets hyper/excited when she see me bringing the food out, but as soon as I put it down, she just sits and stares at me.

I am already feeding her below the recommended guidelines for pups of her age by about 1/4 of a cup less than recommended.

She gets one of her meals (dry food) as training rewards throughout the day, so perhaps this is why the food drive is not as high?

Edited July 23, 2010 by aussielover

[Steve K9Pro]

I am having trouble now with the "ok"/release command.

My puppy sits automatically but when I say ok she just keeps staring at me, I have to physically point to the food and get her to take it. Sometimes I have said OK four of five times before she will take it??? When she does eat, she gobbles it all down, so she is hungry/ wanting the food.

K9: If you havent before used a free or release command, your body language could be saying no whilst your mouth is saying yes (ok lol).

So make sure she he ready, sitting and paying attention, when yiur ready to release, give an enthusiastic ok command and at the same time, take a running step forward toward the food. This should break her from the sit, by all means use your hand to point also.

When you are having a clean release, fade out the step forward, then the hand signal and be left with the verbal release.

I ahve tried moving the food closer, This happens even if the food is only 1cm from her body.

So I'm thinking there is a drive problem? ie. she is not in drive?

K9: Maybe not but maybe too, I think she is feeling pressure to not leave the sit position.

ETA: She gets hyper/excited when she see me bringing the food out, but as soon as I put it down, she just sits and stares at me.

I am already feeding her below the recommended guidelines for pups of her age by about 1/4 of a cup less than recommended.

She gets one of her meals (dry food) as training rewards throughout the day, so perhaps this is why the food drive is not as high?

K9: Ok how old is she? I would not reduce a pups meal by too much on a regular basis.

[aussielover]

She is 16 weeks. She was gaining too much weight and looking a bit round (to put it nicely) on the recommended amount. She is a lab puppy and gets 1.5 cups of dry a day (plus a few treats here and there )

Her trainer said I should feed less to her as she was chubby and was doing lots of poos during the day.

Thanks I will try some of your suggestions.

Otherwise she is doing very well, when I feed her at work people always comment about how good she is and how much self control she has for a puppy

[Steve K9Pro]

She is 16 weeks. She was gaining too much weight and looking a bit round (to put it nicely) on the recommended amount. She is a lab puppy and gets 1.5 cups of dry a day (plus a few treats here and there )

Her trainer said I should feed less to her as she was chubby and was doing lots of poos during the day.

K9: Ok if your person there says its ok, then thats fine, I just didnt want you to reduce food to fix the release problem. (I would also be feeding the same bulk amount but less protein, as a puppy thats hungry can be, loud. )

Thanks I will try some of your suggestions.

Otherwise she is doing very well, when I feed her at work people always comment about how good she is and how much self control she has for a puppy

K9: Great to hear!

[ChristineX]

Hi K9Pro,

asking permission to pass the TOT on to my dog club's instructors for them to have a look at - I've been helping out as assistant this year (lack of instructors, large beginners classes) and there seem to be one or two new people who could benefit from something like this. As I don't have any training qualifications (they do), I tend to check before suggesting something not common (I also check after classes that the advice I gave was okay, just in case as I would hate to screw someone up accidentally).

Umm, can I run it past my Behaviouralist too? My irish terrier Duke is one of those 'spechal' dogs, with reactive hysteria, fear/stress outside the house and a high prey drive and I've been thinking this might benefit him, but I'd like to check it with her before I try.

Thanks,

ChristineX

[Steve K9Pro]

Yep sure you can do both no problems. For convenience you can also download this in PDF format from my website that is printer friendly etc too.

[ChristineX]

Thank you!

[aussielover]

Sorry just wanted to ask how you know whether the dog is in food drive rather than merely practising food exchange/reward?

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: The dogs level of excitement, which you generate at the inception is the difference between the two

[mumof5]

POTENTIALLY STUPID QUESTION ALLERT (sorry firt time training a dog)

my BC pup (9wks) comes to her lead when i tell her its dinner time, then sits on her lead and waits for me to bring her food outside - she watches me from the moment i step outside and follows me back after i put down her food - she stays seated the whole time, watching me - when i stand next to her and she is still watching me i say 'yes' i then bend down unclick wait a second then say OK.... she races off to her food...... (hope im doing that part right)..... now do i need to say 'stay' (wait 10 or so secs) then say yes then say ok straight after that? Do i wait till the end of the 'stay' before i say yes and do i use the verbal command "STAY"..... hope u get what im asking......

[Staranais]

K9 will be able to answer this better than anyone else, but as I understand it, you do not need to say stay - you want the dog to automatically give you his attention and focus in the presence of the food.

You also don't want to intimidate/pressure the dog into leaving the food alone until the release command, as the dog will then see you as an obstacle to achieving drive satisfaction - instead you want the dog to believe that focusing on you is the best way to achieve his goal of getting the food. Hence, this program is a little different to the way most people teach a dog food manners.

I'm sure Steve will correct me if I've mislead you, but this is my understanding of the program.

[mumof5]

wow - thanks for the reply..... its so damn interesting!!!

Maybe i should just continue on with her as she is for a bit longer??? If i unclip her and wait longer than a second I think she'll just go before i say OK....... I really want to get this right - she is such a beautiful pup - so perfect - i owe it to her

[mumof5]

another question...

what do i do if she breaks b4 ok.... do i need to try get to the food b4 her and take it a way and start again? if so what if i dont get to the food b4 her? How long should i wait before i try again? She was going so well... but yesterday she went before i said ok and was eating before i could get to her... should i have taken her food away?

I dont know if i am doing any of this right - but im giving it a damn good go and i am really KEEN to get it right.

Any advise is greatly appreciated ;)

Oh and I have 5 children - should i be getting them to feed her too..... ???????? I want her to respect them too - or should i train her first - then get then teach them?

[Steve K9Pro]

POTENTIALLY STUPID QUESTION ALLERT (sorry firt time training a dog)

my BC pup (9wks) comes to her lead when i tell her its dinner time, then sits on her lead and waits for me to bring her food outside - she watches me from the moment i step outside and follows me back after i put down her food - she stays seated the whole time, watching me - when i stand next to her and she is still watching me i say 'yes' i then bend down unclick wait a second then say OK.... she races off to her food...... (hope im doing that part right).....

K9: Yep sounds great!

now do i need to say 'stay' (wait 10 or so secs) then say yes then say ok straight after that? Do i wait till the end of the 'stay' before i say yes and do i use the verbal command "STAY"..... hope u get what im asking......

K9: Some people like to use a separate stay command, some don't. For this program it does not really matter but, I like (especially with pups) to teach the pup to understand how to experiment with behaviours to try and problem solve. By triggering the dog to predict a reward (the food in this case), and then giving no guidance, it does encourage the dog to try and solve this problem.

The benefit of this is that in time it helps the pup use focus and thought to solve problems rather than become frustrated and carry out higher end behaviours like barking, jumping etc.

Hope that makes sense?

MO5: Maybe i should just continue on with her as she is for a bit longer??? If i unclip her and wait longer than a second I think she'll just go before i say OK....... I really want to get this right - she is such a beautiful pup - so perfect - i owe it to her

K9: In the inception of this program, asking for a long period of focus can make the dog feel like it cant win, reliability and focus is built of more repetition with gradual increases than the application of pressure.

So I would be happy with the focus and eye contact you have, work on getting the dog to understand that release word and then removing the back tie. I would like to try then for the sit and then a down for example, then add duration of eye contact by putting the watch command on a verbal cue.

MO5: what do i do if she breaks b4 ok.... do i need to try get to the food b4 her and take it a way and start again?

K9: No this will only teach the dog it needs to be faster. Your better to use the back tie until you have some reliability, you can then drop the back tie to the ground and step on it if your dog breaks.

if so what if i dont get to the food b4 her? How long should i wait before i try again? She was going so well... but yesterday she went before i said ok and was eating before i could get to her... should i have taken her food away?

K9: Yes but in hindsight you removed the back tie too early.

MO5: I dont know if i am doing any of this right - but im giving it a damn good go smile.gif and i am really KEEN to get it right.

Any advise is greatly appreciated smile.gif

K9: Dont put pressure on yourself, take your time, it is fun learning with your pup what works for both of you.

Oh and I have 5 children eek1.gif - should i be getting them to feed her too..... ???????? I want her to respect them too - or should i train her first - then get then teach them?

K9: I like to have the pup or dog at the stage where it is confident in the program, then I add the children to the mix. My 7 year old loves to run the TOT on my dogs.

[mumof5]

THANK YOU SO MUCH

"K9: No this will only teach the dog it needs to be faster." - that made me laugh..... i would never have though of that... but clearly thats what i would be teaching her... i'd be saying "yay what a great game - lets see who can get to the bowl first" - and we all know who'd be the winner!!!

I think I need to back down a bit and as you said take it slow and use repitition (sp) - and be happy with the progress that she has made already

THanks again - we'll keep at it... and im certain ill be back with plenty of other questions....

[Steve K9Pro]

THANK YOU SO MUCH

"K9: No this will only teach the dog it needs to be faster." - that made me laugh..... i would never have though of that... but clearly thats what i would be teaching her... i'd be saying "yay what a great game - lets see who can get to the bowl first" - and we all know who'd be the winner!!!

K9: I am not going to take credit for thinking about it either, I experienced it lol.

I think I need to back down a bit and as you said take it slow and use repitition (sp) - and be happy with the progress that she has made already :D

THanks again - we'll keep at it... and im certain ill be back with plenty of other questions....

K9: No problems, come back and tell us how you go...

[Kobi'sDaisy]

K9, just wanted to say thanks so much for the program! We've been using it for only 3 weeks on our now 13 wk old Vizsla and have seen MASSIVE improvements!! Just wanted to ask some advice on whining and vocals. We have a very vocal pup (im sure they all can be) and saw that this can be a good program for a dog that whines. Once he's tied up he begins and settles down after a few minutes but has settled to a quite whine is this acceptable?

We've progressed to a sit/stay with the back tie off for 5-10 seconds with good eye contact but lately he has been backing away from the food, while in a sit, sometimes almost turning circles, while sitting, seemingly with excitement any clues to combat this, or if its ok. He isn't breaking the sit/stay to get food just a little crazy!

thanks again for the program, im amazed how well its worked on a puppy, was thinking it would take a lot longer to get where we are!