Steve K9Pro Posted April 30, 2007 Author Share Posted April 30, 2007 B: buster gets very worked up about other dogs. not the ones he lives with. the ones he see's when out walking or the ones barking at him through fences. i have done some basic work, like getting him to drop when he acts up too much. and also a lot of heel work at home. on leash he seem squite dog agressive, but off leash he is a lot better. i have been teachin g him the "focus" command but am interested in strating this program if you think it will benefit K9: start with the basic program, he will need to be professionally assessed to see what drives the aggression, then we can design a program to help him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poodle wrangler Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 does anyone have a video of how this is done? I'd love a video, too. I'm a bit slow . Myska's doesn't have the dogs in a tie out. Thanks for this K9. I've read the whole pinned topic and the following pages. Will give it a go tonight with my older dog (younger one has training tonight and might not be very hungry). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mutchumbo Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 I actually had a crack at this over the past week. This is my result: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxfQ_W6Rit8 N.B. I don't use an out/finish command in these circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 24, 2007 Author Share Posted July 24, 2007 K9: that is some nice focus on your pup, but.... Your using the yes as the release, this will cause problems later on & the other issue is that you are not marking the right behaviour (the attention). The pup is sitting there wondering if it is doing the right thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShellyBeggs Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 K9 this is fantastic.....wish I knew of it before now. However I can't get my 6mo kelpie to do anything that he should. No matter where I place the food he shows it no interest. I don't feed him for over 24hours...tried 2 days......he would be hungry you say....nope! He is more interested looking around, trying to chew his tail, pulling on the tierope (but pulling away from the food) or as last night went...yawning! If I move the food closer and closer until his nose is almost in it, still no reaction! He isn't usually excited by food or toys.......even treats he sort of takes while looking off in the distance as though he eats them out of habit...and his only drive comes from chasing, anything he can as long as it will move away from him. I need to work on leadership with him as he has hit the 'testing' teenage stage and is choosing not to listen to commands he used to know well. He has gone without attention and very little food for 4 days now as he won't sit (scoots backwards and tries to get me to chase him) and I am trying to get him to earn everything. What could I be doing wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 24, 2007 Author Share Posted July 24, 2007 http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=develop.html have a look at this article, see where your pup is in its development, Selective Deafness can play a big part... If this is however how your pup has been since day 1, then trying to get his fod drive working can be very helpful.. Can you video yor pup in action? Is he being fed in the same location every day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShellyBeggs Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 great article....He definately sounds like he is in the selective deafness stage.... I have nothing to videotape with (I dont even own a camera)..... He is being fed same time and same place every day......but in trying the triangle I am now seperating the other dogs from him But even when he used to eat at the same time in the same room as the other dogs he would run around zoomies and only grab a mouthful every now and then on the way past until I took up the bowl. When I first got him, he used to steal the other dogs food (the bc) to the point that the bc would spit out a treat for him to take......but for the last month now he just isn't interested in food. A phase maybe? Being silly is much more fun than food.....he is running riot! It has been suggested I put a lead on him inside so I can stand on the end and he cant run backwards to 'not comply' to a sit commend. But I dont see how this help with leadership! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 24, 2007 Author Share Posted July 24, 2007 K9: nope, making him do something isnt the idea here, we want this to be an inuitive program, not a force program.. I would cut out all treats, feed him every second day a small meal & no more. The food is left available to eat for 3 minutes, then taken away.. Add some nutrigel / nutripet to his diet to stimulate his appetite & see what he does... Over all, just monitor his weight & make sure he isnt loosing.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mutchumbo Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 K9: that is some nice focus on your pup, but.... Your using the yes as the release, this will cause problems later on & the other issue is that you are not marking the right behaviour (the attention). The pup is sitting there wondering if it is doing the right thing... I do understand what you're saying K9... I normally mark his attention or other behavioural correctness in other exercises with a chirpy "good" or "gooooood booooy". I wanted to signify his behaviour on the video with minimal other noises / encouragements. With the training I do with him, I signify the "yes" as if he was asking me for permission whether it's eating or taking an article from my hand etc. Good points you make though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 24, 2007 Author Share Posted July 24, 2007 K9: that is some nice focus on your pup, but.... Your using the yes as the release, this will cause problems later on & the other issue is that you are not marking the right behaviour (the attention). The pup is sitting there wondering if it is doing the right thing... I do understand what you're saying K9... I normally mark his attention or other behavioural correctness in other exercises with a chirpy "good" or "gooooood booooy". I wanted to signify his behaviour on the video with minimal other noises / encouragements. With the training I do with him, I signify the "yes" as if he was asking me for permission whether it's eating or taking an article from my hand etc. Good points you make though. K9: Thanks, saying good, yes any type of recognition that marks the correct behaviour at the correct time, even a clicker is part of the communication this program help people build with their dogs. yes can be the release, doesnt have to be the marker. I have chosen yes & ok as they are part of what we as humans use every day so we understand the concept of them, making it easy to teach it to the dog. Later on in the advanced program (as this one is the default starting point only), I also add a "no reward marker" in which we can add even more communication.. So those on my advanced program use the words "yes, no & ok". Most common words we use daily... I designed this program so that the uptake would be as easy as possible for the new trainer & I have to say that, I have been sent thousands of emails, videos & pictures of people & their dogs doing very well in the TOT, great to see the happiness in the people & the eagerness in the dogs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 I've already let Steve and those in the Ridgie thread know of my most recent successes with this program but I thought I'd put them here too both for discussion purposes and to show the power of the method. I've been training my girl in the TOT for something like 9 months. Initially I was also trying training in prey drive, but it became apparent to me that for various reasons her prey drive wasn't as strong as her food drive. I'm not sure whether that was entirely related to her drives or whether my skill in training in food drive was better than in prey drive. I had actually pulled her out of obedience classes and competitions because she had put her back out and continued to aggravate the injury because of a leash lunging problem. Anyways, weekend before last I entered her in her first obedience trial for something like 12 months. It was a double header and in the first trial, she got 87/100 and second place. The second trial she got 96/100 and first place. The judge for the second trial even commented that she'd never seen a ridgeback work the obedience ring with such enthusiasm and drive. The lower score in the first trial was actually my fault. Under the pressure of the ring I mistakenly dropped in a pack drive command instead of a food drive command and the effect was immediate....she lost enthusiasm and started lagging in the heel. The thing I love about this program is that it really protects a positive and enthusiastic working ethic in my girl, a total turn around from the beginning of her obedience career. She had already obtained a pass in the ring prior to this method of training of 89/100, but there was no enthusiasm from her and her performance was very hit and miss. She had actually bombed out in the ring on far more occasions. I put the above score down to luck more than the effectiveness of the training program that she was on. I cannot recommend highly enough Steve's training in drive workshops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 25, 2007 Author Share Posted July 25, 2007 K9: Thanks for the kind words Rom, credit goes all to you & your awesome RB though, I just talked you though a method in reality... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 (edited) I haven't read this whole thread...only about half so far...but have a question. If you are training/competing in activities where you specifically Do NOT want your dog looking at you directly but rather peripherally, how would you go about following the program without encouraging direct eye contact? or would you be able to follow the program without it having an impact during the activities where you don't want eye contact? Hope this makes sense...I'm not quite sure how to phrase the question (and may well find the answer once I have read the whole thread) Edited July 25, 2007 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Funny you mentioned that Vickie, I was thinking specifically in the context of my latest battle which is teaching a UD directed retrieve. I taught Ness to watch me when her food was placed down and this inadvertently carried over to her DB retrieves where she looks up at me before I send her. Now we battle to get lock in and focus on the gloves because she thinks she needs to look at me before I send her. This is one situation where I want her looking at the glove and not at my face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 25, 2007 Author Share Posted July 25, 2007 I haven't read this whole thread...only about half so far...but have a question. If you are training/competing in activities where you specifically Do NOT want your dog looking at you directly but rather peripherally, how would you go about following the program without encouraging direct eye contact? or would you be able to follow the program without it having an impact during the activities where you don't want eye contact? Hope this makes sense...I'm not quite sure how to phrase the question (and may well find the answer once I have read the whole thread) K9: once the basic version of the program is installed, its quite easy to teach the dog only to check in with you throughout the excercise, not watch you all of the time... The behind the scenes goal is to have the dog be able to control & utilize its drive with the goals of the Alpha intact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 25, 2007 Author Share Posted July 25, 2007 Funny you mentioned that Vickie,I was thinking specifically in the context of my latest battle which is teaching a UD directed retrieve. I taught Ness to watch me when her food was placed down and this inadvertently carried over to her DB retrieves where she looks up at me before I send her. Now we battle to get lock in and focus on the gloves because she thinks she needs to look at me before I send her. This is one situation where I want her looking at the glove and not at my face. K9: when this happens, the dog isnt clear on what it needs to do to earn the reward, it believes the default action of looking at you will solve that problem, which isnt a bad thing but you need to teach the dog how to follow a re direction from you to what you need the dog to look at... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Yes I know but after a HUGE history of being reinforced for attention its not easy . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 I was thinking specifically in the context of my latest battle which is teaching a UD directed retrieve. I taught Ness to watch me when her food was placed down and this inadvertently carried over to her DB retrieves where she looks up at me before I send her. Now we battle to get lock in and focus on the gloves because she thinks she needs to look at me before I send her. This is one situation where I want her looking at the glove and not at my face. I was thinking about agility Ness, where I never want eye contact from my dog, other than the release from the start line. I am just thinking about starting to train Shine & want ZERO eye contact from her right from the start. With the little we have done, she is only being rewarded for forward focus, never for looking at me, so I am wondering if this would be at odds with the TOT program? Could also apply the same idea to herding, but I don't think I will ever get any eye contact there from Trim regardless of what I do. I have seen other dogs though whose checking in with their handlers is a problem & can even be a danger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 I haven't read this whole thread...only about half so far...but have a question. If you are training/competing in activities where you specifically Do NOT want your dog looking at you directly but rather peripherally, how would you go about following the program without encouraging direct eye contact? or would you be able to follow the program without it having an impact during the activities where you don't want eye contact? Hope this makes sense...I'm not quite sure how to phrase the question (and may well find the answer once I have read the whole thread) K9: once the basic version of the program is installed, its quite easy to teach the dog only to check in with you throughout the excercise, not watch you all of the time... Thanks, I think I understand. Could that checking in become peripheral rather than direct? and how would you go about making it so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 I'll admit that we are only in the baby stages of obedience, but I haven't found this an issue yet. I am training the retrieve, but for that exercise looking away from me isn't something that I discourage while she is actually going out. I do ask for eye contact prior to sending her out and when she sits at my feet with the dumbell. If anything, I think it improves the speed that she applies to the task at hand because as soon as she gets back and gives eye contact she knows that there is a high probability for release for the reward. I can send my dog outside to sit and wait for her dinner with a drive command on those occasions when I'm not actually feeding as part of training...I am actually sending her out of sight....she runs outside with a fire on her tail and by the time I'm heading out there with her dish, she's sitting at the foot of the ramp staring at the door waiting for me to come out. I really only use more constant eye contact as a criteria during the heel...I release her randomly during a heel pattern to go get the reward, but one of the criteria for the release is that she is giving me eye contact. I never release her when she is looking at the food dish during the heel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now