Triangle Of Temptation

[spottychick]

I'm trying this with my untrained, unsocialised, fear aggressive dalmatian. At 8 years old he has a lot of stuff to overcome. Mostly he just doesn't pay attention to anything - at all. He's like a hyperactive child or has doggy ADD or something. The thing I noticed most is that this dog does NOT look at you, at your face that is. He only vaguely glances in your direction unless you have treats in your hand amd then he just looks at your hand. I think this is related to his biting because he seems to have no awareness of people and personal space etc (don't misunderstand - he loves people - but only for pats. Once that's done he doesn't pay any attention)

So anyway, to deal with a few issues I decided to try running him through this.

After 3 days and 5 goes he seems to be working it out and is looking at me for the briefest time - I consider this an acheivement, especially this morning when it only took him a couple of minutes to look at me. He also almost sat down when he looked (but I didn't push that at this stage). THe first time we stood out there for what seemed like half an hour before he glanced at me.

I am pleased with his progress, but everything else (eg snapping, pulling on lead etc) is still just as bad as always. One step at a time I reckon.

My biggest obstacle here is ME - I have taken to slapping myself on the head several times as I walk away because once AGAIN I've gotten the words wrong - I keep saying "good boy" in between YES and OKAY (at least I'm not saying "Off you go" instead of OK any more LOL) I try not to - honest!!! It's just like this conditioned response in me.

So I'm learning too - I don't know which of us is more challenged LMAO

[spottychick]

Two weeks later and I'm happy to report I've learnt to say the right words LOL but more importantly, I was stunned at the progress Tango made. Remember this is a slightly lunatic dog who was diagnosed with OCD, half-starved and almost skeletal, never walked or trained before I got him a month ago - and with a phenomonal food drive.

He is now waiting in a sit position WITHOUT a lead attached (after I've un-clipped it) for me to say OKAY before he goes for his food. He looks either at me or just slightly away from me waiting for the OKAY to go, he tries really hard not to look at the food (is this good?). He is also following the word "OKAY" in other training exercises.

Thanks so much for this - I really feel this training is giving him a great deal of confidence and calming him down.

Edited January 25, 2010 by spottychick

[angelsun]

I've got a few issues with this method, firstly the tie out part. In my opinion, to tie a dog and 'tease' it with food is just not on. It is being implied that the food issue elevates the human to alpha status and although this is partially correct, this method is simply not something I consider or condone.

Our dogs from the earliest age are taught to sit and wait for their food. They are released (OK) to eat. Our fast eaters are held longer in the wait position with the food about six feet out front while they remain in a sit position. They watch to us for the release command and we alter it between a verbal OK and a finger snap.

All the dogs watch us during preparation or during the feeding process as the 7 shepherds are fed all together and loose in the yard and without incident. None of them have been tied up, fed alone to elicit a food drive behaviour and yet they all work when asked and respect us as alpha.

I'm at a bit of a loss to understand why the average pet owner feels the need to 'train in drive' mainly because I think most do not fully understand the term. I beleive (and this is my opinion only) that the term is misused by most and that the results from someone believing they are training 'in drive' are in fact not much different than some good old fashioned training we used to do using common sense, years ago.

I've trained in schutzhund, agility, obedience and tracking...all of which need a level of drive to succeed or to motivate a dog to work, however I never have used what is considered to be a specific 'in drive' method as I do not believe that there is really such a thing. Using various exercises to stimulate a dogs problem solving ability perhaps, but calling it 'drive training' is something I would never consider doing. It's simply common sense training.

I find it such a shame that society has created a group of pet owners that need to be taught to be humans, and therefore superior (alpha) to their pets. I however would not condone this method as there is a fine line between being Alpha and to be honest, driving a dog bonkers. Question then, do you really beleive that the control of feeding mannerisms and the focus of a dog to either the food bowl or the human, creates a 'drive' in the dog that will continue after the meal is over?

I'm sure this will spark a few flames my way, so be it....such a shame that it will happen simply because I disagree with a method. I've trained a lot of dogs over the years, all of which have one issue or another. Food aggressives, non food motivated (to the point they would starve themselves as they have no interest in food at all) and yet I can say that on both sides of that pendulum swing, have ended up with excellant working/performing dogs. The dogs here know who's boss be it at meal times or any other time, and didn't need to be segregated or tied up/restrained to get to that stage.

(flame away)

[Staranais]

I don't think this method is designed to show the dog who is "boss".

I think it's designed to show the dog that paying attention to the owner is the best route to obtaining access to rewards,with the aim of creating a dog who looks to the owner for guidance when it encounters potential rewards. This is a different belief system to most dogs - most dogs believe that disobeying the owner whenever possible is generally the best way to gain access to rewards.

I didn't design the method, however, so could be wrong as to what it's all about.

Why would anyone flame you? I don't think there's been any flaming in the thread so far.

[Steve K9Pro]

A: I've got a few issues with this method, firstly the tie out part. In my opinion, to tie a dog and 'tease' it with food is just not on

K9: If you look at any method that uses drive be it a tug or food, something similar is used. Some dogs have little interest in food, the teasing is to indentify to them what the distraction is and to put them into a state of high energy in which they need to self control.

It is being implied that the food issue elevates the human to alpha status and although this is partially correct, this method is simply not something I consider or condone.

K9: It doesn't say anywhere that you have to consider or condone it, but if you read the many that have gained great results from it, perhaps your looking at it from the wrong point of view. It doesnt anywhere say that the food will raise your pack position, but teaching your dog that giving attention to the person when a reward is somewhere else sure helps that.

Our dogs from the earliest age are taught to sit and wait for their food.

K9: I guess this is done by holding the food where they cannot reach it? then having them sit? The giving them the food?

They are released (OK) to eat. Our fast eaters are held longer in the wait position with the food about six feet out front while they remain in a sit position. They watch to us for the release command and we alter it between a verbal OK and a finger snap.

All the dogs watch us during preparation or during the feeding process as the 7 shepherds are fed all together and loose in the yard and without incident. None of them have been tied up, fed alone to elicit a food drive behaviour and yet they all work when asked and respect us as alpha.

K9: Ok so the only difference "you see" is that tie out and the teasing?

I'm at a bit of a loss to understand why the average pet owner feels the need to 'train in drive' mainly because I think most do not fully understand the term.

K9: This is a step by step procedure so they dont need to understand any more to get the results, reading through the posts of those that have used it here will show you that.

If you prefer to call it training with a remote food reward, thats fine with me...

I beleive (and this is my opinion only) that the term is misused by most and that the results from someone believing they are training 'in drive' are in fact not much different than some good old fashioned training we used to do using common sense, years ago.

K9: Perhaps that is true, and perhaps it isnt...

I've trained in schutzhund, agility, obedience and tracking...all of which need a level of drive to succeed or to motivate a dog to work, however I never have used what is considered to be a specific 'in drive' method as I do not believe that there is really such a thing. Using various exercises to stimulate a dogs problem solving ability perhaps, but calling it 'drive training' is something I would never consider doing. It's simply common sense training.

K9: I guess every style of training once you know how to do it would be common sense training but that would mean we would all be doing something different, but calling it the same. I can see problems with that. It is just a descriptive term, I am far from the only one that uses it.

I find it such a shame that society has created a group of pet owners that need to be taught to be humans, and therefore superior (alpha) to their pets. I however would not condone this method as there is a fine line between being Alpha and to be honest, driving a dog bonkers.

K9: Ok but I dont think I am my program is responsible for that lol, also you said a few paragraphs up said that "and yet they all work when asked and respect us as alpha". Why do they need to see you as the Alpha?

I can confirm to you that not one has been driven "bonkers" just yet.

Question then, do you really beleive that the control of feeding mannerisms and the focus of a dog to either the food bowl or the human, creates a 'drive' in the dog that will continue after the meal is over?

K9: Drive will not but the exercises taught in the Triangle will, dogs are being taught to give attention in the face of distraction, learn self control and then many other OB exercises that do continue on through the dogs life. I have rehabbed many dogs that we use this as the corner stone of self control with great success also.

I'm sure this will spark a few flames my way, so be it....

K9: I am not sure why anyone would write a post that they know will start flaming and in case you havent noticed, YOUR flaming this program lol...

such a shame that it will happen simply because I disagree with a method.

K9: I think the shame is that, if you have thoughts about this method, you could simply ask questions, but instead you form an opinion and then attack the method.

I've trained a lot of dogs over the years, all of which have one issue or another. Food aggressives, non food motivated (to the point they would starve themselves as they have no interest in food at all) and yet I can say that on both sides of that pendulum swing, have ended up with excellant working/performing dogs.

K9: Ok, so have many here, so? I cannot see anywhere in which I have said "you must use this program or your dogs will not work/perform!"

The dogs here know who's boss be it at meal times or any other time, and didn't need to be segregated or tied up/restrained to get to that stage.

(flame away)

K9: Congratulations, but we dont have a list of the method you have used to critique do we? Perhaps I could watch what you do and find 1000 problems in it, but then your answer would be, it has worked for many dogs. Well I doubt you have owned as many dogs as have benefited from this program, so perhaps that is something to think about before you tell me what doesnt work or what isnt needed.

This version of the program is the basic first steps to implementing this in your home, whether it is applied to a rank driven dog or a submissive dog or overly excited dog that knows no rules or limitations, it works for all and it works very well.

When the owner has a years of experience or none, it still works.

If you went to an aggressive rank dog, stood there with the food bowl held high and ordered the dog to sit, this could turn out very bad for you, this wont happen with my method.

It isnt designed to show a dog who is boss, that can add conflict, it is designed to teach dogs and owners very valuable life skills, here are a just few: -

Impulse control without physical corrections

Understanding that trying to get the food/distraction/temptation with energy applied to the person holding it isnt the way to gain reward

Taking your attention off the distraction (food) and giving it to the person is the path to reward

Being on a tie out ends in reward

It teaches the dog owner and the dog basic marking and release skills

It also is set up so the new dog owner wont fail with a dog and the tie out helps this because: -

The dog is tied up, it cannot jump on the owner to get the food finally being reinforced for that behaviour.

The dog cannot attack the owner as in the case I mentioned above for the rank dog.

The dog cannot ignore the owner and just run to the food, resulting in behaviour reinforced that isnt a desirable behaviour.

Regardless of what the dog does, physical pressure isnt applied from the owner to the dog or from the dog to the owner.

The dog learns to break its own glance from the distraction and give it to the owner, which results in reward. Substitute the food for another "temptation" and we have noted a great improvement in the dogs behaviour around things that were previously highly distractive.

As for the issues with teasing the dog, if you have trained Schutzhund, I wonder how this was done without some form of teasing with a toy or by a helper?

If you think outside the box, you will see that there is no harm being done here and dont let me tell you, just read the results that others have gained using it. It is on other forums too, same results, I have been prescribing it to my behaviour clients for many years, same results, many breeders and trainers use it too, same results.

Those results can be described as, owners happy and rewarding their dogs and using communication, and a dog that is under "self control" and learns new exercises at feeding time and reinforces old ones.

One other benefit of this program is that it ensures owners actually train their dogs, every day, at least once, that is a benefit for many dogs and owners.

You dont have to like it Angelsun, I see in your avatar that you have a Dobe with cropped ears, many call that mutilation, but you must approve of it to display it? It is your dog and your choice I guess, right? Or maybe you would call it "common sense ear modification" lol.

I find it strange though that you have been a member since 2004 and this program was made a sticky in 2006, and you feel now is the time to attack it?

Edited April 5, 2010 by K9Pro

[MonElite]

I see in your avatar that you have a Dobe with cropped ears

I belive its a German Pinscher

Edited April 8, 2010 by MonElite

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: could be, it's a small pic. The comment was really using the ears as an example. Could have said docked tail too I guess.

[Bevo]

Hey K9,

I have tried using your system, the issue I'm having though is that my Great Dane "Turkish" hates being on the lead. When I put him on the lead/rope his tail goes between his legs and he is very stand offish. I have skipped a few feeds to try and get him hungry but even then it doesn't seem to help, should I just feed him while his on the lead a few times to get him used to the lead. Thanks in advance.

Bevo

[Steve K9Pro]

B: I have tried using your system, the issue I'm having though is that my Great Dane "Turkish" hates being on the lead. When I put him on the lead/rope his tail goes between his legs and he is very stand offish. I have skipped a few feeds to try and get him hungry but even then it doesn't seem to help, should I just feed him while his on the lead a few times to get him used to the lead. Thanks in advance.

K9: Hi Bevo, skipping meals or reducing food is one way to increase food drive, if your dog has a behaviour problem which is fear driven (which your dog may have), I would not recommend missing meals to "pressure" your dog past the fear of the leash. This program certainly can help you but I personally wouldnt use it as a "total" solution.

Let me know where you are and I may have someone I can refer you to.

Edited April 19, 2010 by K9Pro

[aussielover]

Hi,

Thanks for posting this, The program sounds like it has helped a lot of people.

Would you recommend starting this program on the first day you get your puppy (pup will be 8wks old).

Is it ok to do this inside as I am worried the pup will get cold outside and I want it to eat inside anyway?

If I want to clicker train my dog later on, should I start with the clicker instead of the "yes"? Or can I just use yes and then later condition the dog to the clicker?

[Steve K9Pro]

Hi,

Thanks for posting this, The program sounds like it has helped a lot of people.

Would you recommend starting this program on the first day you get your puppy (pup will be 8wks old).

Is it ok to do this inside as I am worried the pup will get cold outside and I want it to eat inside anyway?

If I want to clicker train my dog later on, should I start with the clicker instead of the "yes"? Or can I just use yes and then later condition the dog to the clicker?

K9: You can and should IMO start this day one with your dog, no matter how young and it can be done anywhere you can create the backtie and feed no problems.

I would use the verbal markers to start, then later on when it is taught, if you want to use a clicker, just merge it in, will be easy then.

Good luck and post back and let me know how you go.

[aussielover]

Hi,

Thanks for posting this, The program sounds like it has helped a lot of people.

Would you recommend starting this program on the first day you get your puppy (pup will be 8wks old).

Is it ok to do this inside as I am worried the pup will get cold outside and I want it to eat inside anyway?

If I want to clicker train my dog later on, should I start with the clicker instead of the "yes"? Or can I just use yes and then later condition the dog to the clicker?

K9: You can and should IMO start this day one with your dog, no matter how young and it can be done anywhere you can create the backtie and feed no problems.

I would use the verbal markers to start, then later on when it is taught, if you want to use a clicker, just merge it in, will be easy then.

Good luck and post back and let me know how you go.

I have started this with my puppy. She is doing well and now looks to me automatically. She is doing well with learning new commands. she knows come, sit, drop, shake hands and up. Its amazing how quickly they can learn! she still attempts to do naughty things like chewing on stuff and jumping up if she is super excited. I usually get her to sit or drop and she complies immediayely but I am wondering if she thinks it is a good tactic to be naughty and then get given a command and get a treat? Perhaps I am thinking too deeply and dogs do not think like this?

[Steve K9Pro]

I have started this with my puppy. She is doing well and now looks to me automatically. She is doing well with learning new commands. she knows come, sit, drop, shake hands and up. Its amazing how quickly they can learn!

K9: Yep it sure is, puppies are always learning something, we just have to make sure its what we want them to learn.

she still attempts to do naughty things like chewing on stuff and jumping up if she is super excited.

K9: This is pretty normal for a pup, the chewing particularly when teething (and sometimes when not), good idea is to redirect this onto a suitable toy, something the pup can work over that is soft enough to chew on but wont be destroyed quickly. Our everlasting range are great for this.

I usually get her to sit or drop and she complies immediayely but I am wondering if she thinks it is a good tactic to be naughty and then get given a command and get a treat? Perhaps I am thinking too deeply and dogs do not think like this?

K9: Dogs can for sure learn that a way to begin interaction is to behave in a certain manner, your 100% right on that one...

Edited June 7, 2010 by K9Pro

[aussielover]

I have your bee toy which she loves and also a star type toy. She also has kongs, nylabones and rawhide chews etc.

How do I stop her from jumping then? just ignore her? I don't want her to get into the habit... there would be nothing worse than a fully grown 30kg lab jumping on you!

[Steve K9Pro]

I have your bee toy which she loves and also a star type toy. She also has kongs, nylabones and rawhide chews etc.

K9: wow she sounds well catered for then, Kongs can be a bit too hard for puppy teeth which is why we use Orbee's instead, but the Egg inside teh Bee should also be fine...

How do I stop her from jumping then? just ignore her? I don't want her to get into the habit... there would be nothing worse than a fully grown 30kg lab jumping on you!

K9: I would say that she is being reinforced some how to do this? the first step I would take is to stop doing this at all costs, I would also teach her that interacting with you wont ever happen by jumping up.

You can develop a No Reward Marker within the TOT which indicates to the dog that it is not on the path to reward. Then when you see the pup doing something that it should not, give a NRM rather than start an exercise that will end ion reward, otherwise the pup will think that the naughty behaviour is (behaviour) chain that leads to reward.

[Marley'z Mum]

Hi.... I have only just found this topic..... I plan on starting the TOT today with my 12week bitza puppy, I have a question..... I have 3 children, oldest girl 14 then boy 13 then girl 8, the puppy seems to be showing some sort of dominance over the girls, or he thinks he is more important than them..... I say this because if he is laying somewhere nearly asleep or awake laying there if they try to pick him up and move him, if asked to or just coz they wanna move him, he will growl at them and snap, he doesnt do this with me or OH, or my son for that matter... my son feeds him in the mornings as I goto work... My questions are.... after I have started TOT with him, should I get the girls to do it to get past this aggression he has towards them? if so would I need to start from the begining with them?

I just dont want him to turn into this big dog that the girls cant go near when he is asleep.... I would like a fairly bomb proof dog

Thanks in advance!

[spottychick]

Ki k9

Just wanted to let you know that my dog Tango is still doing brilliantly on this programme and he will now sit without being tied anywhere at all and look into my eyes until I tell him he can get his food. The funny thing is that my other dog Pepper, who has never been formally trained at all but learnt her (good) behaviour from my other dogs, is now doing exactly the same thing even tho she never used to and I've not specifically trained her.

In fact, she has learnt it with absolutely NO input from me to her directly. It actually took me a while to notice she was doing it at all so I have no idea how long she's been following the whole thing LOL It was just one day a couple of weeks ago when I was feeding them both in the kitchen and concentrating on Tango that I realised she was also staring at me and sitting nicely waiting for me to say "okay" to her LMAO

Anyway, just thought you might find that interesting or amusing or something.

[Steve K9Pro]

Hi.... I have only just found this topic..... I plan on starting the TOT today with my 12week bitza puppy, I have a question..... I have 3 children, oldest girl 14 then boy 13 then girl 8, the puppy seems to be showing some sort of dominance over the girls, or he thinks he is more important than them..... I say this because if he is laying somewhere nearly asleep or awake laying there if they try to pick him up and move him, if asked to or just coz they wanna move him, he will growl at them and snap, he doesnt do this with me or OH, or my son for that matter... my son feeds him in the mornings as I goto work... My questions are.... after I have started TOT with him, should I get the girls to do it to get past this aggression he has towards them? if so would I need to start from the begining with them?

K9: when adding people to teh TOT regime, it is best to ensure the dog is familiar with the routine before adding other people. In your situation, your puppy is perhaps a more rank (dominant) pup than may be desireable.

I just dont want him to turn into this big dog that the girls cant go near when he is asleep.... I would like a fairly bomb proof dog

K9: It is hard to guage the level of aggression the pup is displaying toward your girls, your pup is young also so this could be nothing or something quite serious.

If your goal is to have a bomb proof dog, I would recommend that you consider having your pups temperament assessed by a behaviourist.

Aggression is not an internet solved or diagnosed problem, this program is not a cure all either, it is a foundation program that can help reduce / resolve / prevent some common issues and heopl people devleop a communication system with their dogs.

[Steve K9Pro]

Ki k9

Just wanted to let you know that my dog Tango is still doing brilliantly on this programme and he will now sit without being tied anywhere at all and look into my eyes until I tell him he can get his food. The funny thing is that my other dog Pepper, who has never been formally trained at all but learnt her (good) behaviour from my other dogs, is now doing exactly the same thing even tho she never used to and I've not specifically trained her.

In fact, she has learnt it with absolutely NO input from me to her directly. It actually took me a while to notice she was doing it at all so I have no idea how long she's been following the whole thing LOL It was just one day a couple of weeks ago when I was feeding them both in the kitchen and concentrating on Tango that I realised she was also staring at me and sitting nicely waiting for me to say "okay" to her LMAO

Anyway, just thought you might find that interesting or amusing or something.

K9: Thats great news Spottychick and I am always eager to hear how people are doing wide and far...

It is quite common for dogs to copy one another (monkey see, moneky do lol).

It is funny to watch pupplies here try and copy things the bigger dogs do and they are barely solid on their feet!

Thanks for sharing...

[Marley'z Mum]

hi k9pro

I think i mite be doin something wrong in doin this, when u take the food out, u show the food then walk away with it until the point the dog isnt goin mental for it? Then walk bak to its right side the problem i am havin is, i walk away with it, i check how the dog is, he is standin lookin at me an food, i put the food down an walk bak, by the time i get bak to him he is crazy tryin to get to the food

Do i wait for him to settle then get him 2 look at me? Am i not puting the food far enough away?