Triangle Of Temptation

[Kavik]

I've been trying the treat bag on the ground and release and run to it with success!

[aquaticmalamute]

K9: I too have a question, however I admit I haven't read the whole thread so apologise if it has been brought up already

I have a 14 week old Alaskan Malamute pup who demands food the instant he sees me in the morning (through the back glass sliding door) or around dusk at dinner time. He will literally throw himself against the door screaming and demanding his breakfast.

How do you deal with this stage?

I have been actively ignoring him by pulling up a chair at the back door and reading a book or doing housework while he screams to his hearts content. When he gives up and goes away I will tie him out and start to prepare his food, at which point he will start the screaming and lungeing on his tie out all over again. I have been doing this for a few weeks now to no avail, I also feed him at irregular times to try and break the cycle. What am I doing wrong?

My old girl gets fed first and out of sight of the pup, she will sit and wait for the OK, giving me perfect eye contact for as long as I ask, I then go and feed the pup. Since he is a show dog in training I ask for a 'stand' instead of a sit, place the bowl within reach so that his tie out is slack, ask for eye contact and give the OK to eat after he holds it for a bit longer each day. Am I tempting him too much by having the food so close to him?

He won't touch the food untill I say OK but he is torn between looking at me and staring down his food - he knows that looking at me means that he can eat once given the ok, but tries to predict me and dives toward his food once he has glanced at me, but stops before getting to the food because I have said "AH" letting him know that I don't approve of his actions (this doesn't work when he is being loud).

We also have another problem at dog shows, however i'm not sure how traingle of temptaion could help it? He is fine in his crate, being groomed on the table and being left alone. It's the few minutes before going into the ring that he starts screaming and generally voicing his opinion! He isn't anxious or excited as far as i'm aware, he will happily sit next to me and make noise just for the sake of it. I have tried, holding his muzzle, staring him in the eyes and loudly saying QUIET, he stops for a few seconds before starting up again. I can't squirt him with water because we are about to go in the ring and giving leash corrections doesn't help either.

Short of de-barking him i'm at a loss as in how to quiet him down?

[Steve K9Pro]

have a 14 week old Alaskan Malamute pup who demands food the instant he sees me in the morning (through the back glass sliding door) or around dusk at dinner time. He will literally throw himself against the door screaming and demanding his breakfast.

How do you deal with this stage?

K9: In reality, its not a stage as it is a learned behaviour. The TOT is creating a foundation to build your training & pack structure on rather than a total solution to a problem.

I have been actively ignoring him by pulling up a chair at the back door and reading a book or doing housework while he screams to his hearts content. When he gives up and goes away I will tie him out and start to prepare his food, at which point he will start the screaming and lungeing on his tie out all over again. I have been doing this for a few weeks now to no avail, I also feed him at irregular times to try and break the cycle. What am I doing wrong?

K9: from your description it appears that your dog is over sensitive to the trigger/stimuli of food. This means that you will need to change the way the dog is fed to a large degree. Your dog appears to be now triggering on the sight of you at the back door. This will have been because you have constantly appeared at the door with food consistantly.

I would stop all food from coming out that door to begin with, to take the focus off the door.

My old girl gets fed first and out of sight of the pup, she will sit and wait for the OK, giving me perfect eye contact for as long as I ask, I then go and feed the pup. Since he is a show dog in training I ask for a 'stand' instead of a sit, place the bowl within reach so that his tie out is slack, ask for eye contact and give the OK to eat after he holds it for a bit longer each day. Am I tempting him too much by having the food so close to him?

K9: The success many have gained from this program has come from following the instructions to the letter, this means a sit first. The sit is a more static/relaxed position & includes some submission. So it must be first movement, the attention on you being the first action.

I know in the show world people think sitting will compromise the stand, but that is a myth.

He won't touch the food untill I say OK but he is torn between looking at me and staring down his food - he knows that looking at me means that he can eat once given the ok, but tries to predict me and dives toward his food once he has glanced at me, but stops before getting to the food because I have said "AH" letting him know that I don't approve of his actions (this doesn't work when he is being loud).

We also have another problem at dog shows, however i'm not sure how traingle of temptaion could help it? He is fine in his crate, being groomed on the table and being left alone. It's the few minutes before going into the ring that he starts screaming and generally voicing his opinion! He isn't anxious or excited as far as i'm aware, he will happily sit next to me and make noise just for the sake of it. I have tried, holding his muzzle, staring him in the eyes and loudly saying QUIET, he stops for a few seconds before starting up again. I can't squirt him with water because we are about to go in the ring and giving leash corrections doesn't help either.

Short of de-barking him i'm at a loss as in how to quiet him down?

K9: Behaviour diagnosis can really only take place when I see the dog, not hear your take on what is happening. This robs me of seeing the dogs body language, pack position & amount of drive.

The best bet is to book a consult with me or anonther behaviourist before these behaviours become deep seated & habitual. It is far too hit & miss to do it online.

[Blue Fox 001]

K9 is this method safe - by that I mean if I was to have a go at it is there any possibility of making the dog worse? The reason I ask is I have a boarding dog who is coming back in early September and I would like to speak with the owner about starting this while he is here with me for a week and have her continue with him when he goes home. Just one disclaimer I have not done this before! Will be starting with my GSD tomorrow.

He is a very headstrong 8 month old pup, not well socialised and very use to getting his own way. I am thinking with a week of this and some basic obedience he would be on the way to being a lovely dog, but if he continues in this vein I don't think he will live to be a very old dog as he will become to big, too strong and too much hassle for them.

What do you think - worth giving it a go?

Also can you split the days food into 4 or 5 portions and do this more often to get faster results? We will only have 5 days to show some real improvement or I feel they won't go on with it. Apologies if this has been asked. I got to page 14 and then just had to ask my questions

[Steve K9Pro]

BF: K9 is this method safe - by that I mean if I was to have a go at it is there any possibility of making the dog worse?

K9: I havent come accross or heard of a dog yet that didnt benefit from this program.

BF: The reason I ask is I have a boarding dog who is coming back in early September and I would like to speak with the owner about starting this while he is here with me for a week and have her continue with him when he goes home. Just one disclaimer I have not done this before! Will be starting with my GSD tomorrow.

K9: I think you will have nothing but great results with it & the dog you have coming to board will settle very quick into the program. This is extremely simple to execute whilts being quite in depth behind the scenes.

If you email me ([email protected]) I will send you the PDF of the program you can give to the lady when she takes her dog back so she can follow it easily.

BF: He is a very headstrong 8 month old pup, not well socialised and very use to getting his own way. I am thinking with a week of this and some basic obedience he would be on the way to being a lovely dog, but if he continues in this vein I don't think he will live to be a very old dog as he will become to big, too strong and too much hassle for them.

K9: One aspect of the TOT is that it teaches the dog that if he applies more power he will win nothing. This is a important message that dogs need to learn, self control equals success, over the top displays of excitement/pressure on the handler win nothing. It makes for a dog that doesnt try & win by force.

BF: What do you think - worth giving it a go?

K9: Absolutely, but only if the owner continues on with it...

BF: Also can you split the days food into 4 or 5 portions and do this more often to get faster results? We will only have 5 days to show some real improvement or I feel they won't go on with it.

K9: certainly feed twice a day, but if you feed when the dogs not hungry, you wont create food drive & some of the reward (the chemical reward of Endorphins associated with drive success) will be lost, ie slowing learning down.

Love to hear how you get on..

[Blue Fox 001]

Thanks so much for the reply K9. I am very excited about the pup coming back and hopefully getting some real progress while he is here with this method. I will email you for the info to give the owner shortly. Keep your fingers crossed for me, thanks again and I will let you know how we go.

[Blue Fox 001]

Just wanted to give you an update on the naughty pup - things went really well for the week he was with us and the owner has been following up and things seem to be improving for him. He came back to board with us a week or so and this time didn't jump all over me, sat when asked and for his food, he did rip the dog door out of the solid door but that was all he did - no ripped up blankets, toys, beds, bowls etc..

Thanks K9 - the owner is happier and calmer so is the dog I think.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Hey thanks for getting back to me, that's really great news.

[ness]

Not strictly TOT but sort of in that I am trying to work out what would be an appropriate size Orbee ball on a rope for my baby girl. I have a medium one which she is obsessed with to the point that I had to hide it to stop her stealing it as a baby pup. She is now 7 months old and I was thinking I would reintroduce it for training but not sure if she might need a small one. The medium is quite large in her mouth. She is only 12kgs and I don't think will get a huge amount bigger. Ooops forgot to mention she is a BC.

Would people recommend I purchase a small one or should be medium one be suitable.

Edited November 19, 2008 by ness

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: The small, any time the item means the dog has to stretch its mouth can add discomfort which will in some manner reduce drive.

[ness]

Sounds like I have some more shopping to do - thanks for the advice K9.

[charlieandoops]

Hi Steve,

About 5 weeks ago I was breaking up a dog fight between my female staffy and a female foster Shar Pei. Unfortunately my staffy went back for another go at the Pei after I had separated them, missed the Pei and partially amputated my finger.

Two days later we started our beautiful Staffy on TOT and have made this routine for her meal times ever since.

She is a different dog now. I can't thank you enough!!! She no longer feels the need to be pack leader, to be possessive of her toys or food and is delighted to finally relax and be simply a part of the pack. YOU have given us the tools that have changed her life and I and the rest of the family are so grateful to you and your experience and generous wisdom sharing.

We have now started the shy and insecure foster Pei on the same program. I know it will be no time before she too will gain the confidence and comfort zone she is entitled to but has never had.

Many, many thanks, you are literally a life saver!

Amanda

[Steve K9Pro]

Hi Steve,

About 5 weeks ago I was breaking up a dog fight between my female staffy and a female foster Shar Pei. Unfortunately my staffy went back for another go at the Pei after I had separated them, missed the Pei and partially amputated my finger.

Two days later we started our beautiful Staffy on TOT and have made this routine for her meal times ever since.

She is a different dog now. I can't thank you enough!!! She no longer feels the need to be pack leader, to be possessive of her toys or food and is delighted to finally relax and be simply a part of the pack. YOU have given us the tools that have changed her life and I and the rest of the family are so grateful to you and your experience and generous wisdom sharing.

We have now started the shy and insecure foster Pei on the same program. I know it will be no time before she too will gain the confidence and comfort zone she is entitled to but has never had.

Many, many thanks, you are literally a life saver!

Amanda

K9: Thanks for the kind words Amanda, some dogs need simply be shown some rules & boundaries & they fall right into place, I am delighted that your Staffy is going so well.

Well done for implementing it so well too!

[Guest Pandii]

Hi K9

I have the 3 dogs in my signature, was wondering if TOT would help with feeding issues

Tyson is fine to feed with any of them but Dante and Seb try to kill each other over food. I would like to be able to feed them all in the one area

Currently I am feeding Ty and Dante together and Seb in a crate . Dante is my dominate dog and will go as far as peeing in the others bowls once they are done

Is TOT something that will help or do I need to try other things

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: The TOT is a great foundation program, in many cases it will extinguish the aggression a feeding time as a prodedure gets put in place.

Begin training all dogs in the program, all in separate areas or separate times in the same area.

When they are all trained to the level where they are off leash & obeying commands, put all three on tie outs & long lines.

Then bring out the food bowls & begin the TOT.

When you release them hold the long line of the main aggressor & see where your at in terms of aggression.

The extra leadership gained in the TOT will have many benefits also.

[raz]

My pug breeder saw pug in action recently - she goes absolutely ape when her food is being dished out, spinning in circles etc. Breeder suggested your triangle of temptation. All I've done so far is hold the bowl at my chest height, tell her 'Quiet' and as soon as she looks at me I put the bowl down and say good quiet. It's working so should I progress to tieup or just continue on as is, Steve? Thanks in advance.

Now off to read the whole thread.

[Steve K9Pro]

My pug breeder saw pug in action recently - she goes absolutely ape when her food is being dished out, spinning in circles etc. Breeder suggested your triangle of temptation. All I've done so far is hold the bowl at my chest height, tell her 'Quiet' and as soon as she looks at me I put the bowl down and say good quiet. It's working so should I progress to tieup or just continue on as is, Steve? Thanks in advance.

Now off to read the whole thread.

K9: Yep it is pretty important that you don't withhold the food in any way, the tie out must do that or you wont get the mind set you need from the dog.

Tie out the dog, go make the food, place it in a place where the dog isnt going into drive peak, stand back behind the dog quietly & wait for the dog to calm itself..

Then mark, untie & release...

[raz]

Thanks Steve. Very helpful as usual. Much appreciated. I might end up with a normal dog after all (although that's highly debatable)

[Guest Pandii]

Thanks Steve, will be trying this. My Main hold up is soemthing to tie 2 very strong dogs to. Need to go problem solve this one

[Steve K9Pro]

Thanks Steve. Very helpful as usual. Much appreciated. I might end up with a normal dog after all (although that's highly debatable)

K9: If your dog has a lot of food drive, you may end up with a way above normal dog...