Rom Posted May 15, 2006 Share Posted May 15, 2006 At a workshop I attended last year, speaker said that you can have a dumb dog that has a high degree of compliance (ie willingness to please, also related to low stress threshhold) and it will be more trainable than a truly intelligent dog. I'd love to read what other DOLers think about this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ysabel Posted May 15, 2006 Share Posted May 15, 2006 I am not sure about dogs, but i know that it is true to some degree in humans. High intelligence will often learn faster, but require more * reward * over time .. also tends to question tasking, whereas low intelligence takes longer to grasp the task, but once its learned, its there forever. I deal with intellectually disabled kids and teens quite often, and it is well nigh impossible to get one of them to do something they have learnt not to. one Downs syndrome man (24) i take swimming had to have his mum come along daily for the first week.. cause no one but his mum was allowed to take his shirt off . Once he got the idea that i was permitted, he was cool, but if i have a sick day, his mum has to come as he will not let the relief person take it off. His mum taught him that when he was 5, and it has stuck like glue ever since. Ysabel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted May 15, 2006 Share Posted May 15, 2006 Ok well i have a highly intelligent dog that can be very spooky and this gets in the way of his ability to learn and remember things my not so bright but not nervy whippet learned faster lol. M dog is very compliant but is soft so when learning new things he will pick up the concept very quickly but it doesnt stick for ages so yeah agree of course the ultimate is a highly intelligent very compliant dog with great nerves Inpeople i know of thre children that were considered gifted and put in special programs in promary school for bright kids none of them have done well on vce its seemed that once they levelled a bit not having to work hard and learn to study affects them when it comes to the crunch whereas other less 'gifted' kids that want it more and know how to cope have down really well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatevah Posted May 15, 2006 Share Posted May 15, 2006 I have a dumb goofy flatcoated retriever, who is highly compliant, and does not stress, takes a lot longer to teach him new things. He does not generalise well. At lure coursing which he loves, he couldn't understand that the lure was going around in a different direction, at flyball I have to always release him in the exact same manner. My toller who is a lot smarter, is much easier to train but will try and out think you. I was talking to some people on the weekend and found that the smarter breeds can take longer to teach flyball to be reliable as they try to out think you, or they discover that they can just run to the other flyball box and get that ball before the other dog in the lane. Is quite interesting really. Nothing really spooks my goofy dog but my toller is sometimes spooked by new things but then you show him and he is over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 Intelligence or compliance. I have heard this subject on multiple occasions from experts (or so called experts!!!) I do not agree with. All the same I listen with interest as another "gem" of an idea, may result. Training plays such a large part and having a dog which you can channel to your requirements. The more desire the better. both dog and trainer. Another point is I would not train my labradors to be herders. They are simply not genetically bred for such work. I do wish my dogs would drive me to training. Unfortunately they are not that smart. They sure can find a retrieve though, in high thick cover, I can have problems with and they do worry about swimming any time of year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vin Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 Highly imtelligent dogs are harder to train. eg they think for them selves, they want something thats is in it for them, they are a thinking dog, and independent. Some people think that this type of dog is just dumb, hehe, think agian because they got you right where they want you. Kind of like a cat. You tell a cat to sit, he will be like "yeah whatever, now just give me food you idiot human" and just stare at you. Cats are switched on, so emagine your dog was like that, and big, he would be out of control ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 (edited) In my experience its harder to train a smarter dog that isn't as interested in "complying". Try endlessly drilling a breed like a poodle in the way that some people train their BCs or Labs - they simply switch off or find creative ways to perform the exercise. Of course the compliance factor does differ between breeds but I also think that the relationship with the owner has a lot to do with this. If my dogs were kept as individuals in runs and the only time they got out was for exercise or training one on one with me, I expect that their "compliance" levels would be higher. Become the only source of stimulation and reward for your dog and of course it will work harder while its with you. An independent breed like a terrier or a hound isn't necessarily stupid but the WIIFM factor (What's in it for me) has to be a lot higher all the time to get the results. IMO Intelligence dictates the speed of learning. "Compliance" dictates the degree to which your dog is interested in pleasing you, rather than itself. Some of that is genetic and some is about the relationship with the handler. Edited May 16, 2006 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lab and poodle Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 I mostly have to agree with you poodlefan, my little poodle learns so fast it feels like cheating. I have also trained a bright lab, and he was a funny one. Just as you thought You had an exercise licked, he would figure out another way of doing it. He wasn't one for a hell of a lot of drilling. What amuses me, is that what every breed standard or publication says about their breed is that they are "intelligent". I mean you get down to "rubbish tin" (you have to bang a pair of rubbish tins together to get their attention) and they still are intelligent. Their are dogs that are too intelligent to retrieve, to intelligent to trial blah blah. I wanted a good all rounder, so I got a poodle. I wanted a nice fast dog, and that's what I have got. I need a dog intelligent to live in our household, and sensitive enough to reasonably comply with what she is told. I don't want to do sophisticated arm wrestles to get reasonable compliance. I do note now a show of stubborness which I fully intend to exploit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted May 17, 2006 Author Share Posted May 17, 2006 Hi Poodle people! You will be happy to know that above mentioned speaker stated that in his experience Poodles were the smartest dogs he'd trained because he reckoned it only took them an average of 3 repetitions to learn something new! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCNTC Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 trainability is compliance. I have the dumbest dog on the planet and he is an agility dog, flyball, dog and freestyle dog. he loves to learn, he is a very compliant learner but he has like 1 brain cell lol it is not possable to convince me that a perfectly sighted dog who continually rams his head into the back of his kennel trying to find the door , and runs halfway to the toy while playing fetch before forgetting what he was doing is intelligent. Misty knows a lot of complictaed tricks, I tought her to kick a ball clear accross the room in 5 minuts flat and she had it solid. she is not smart, out of my 5 dogs she ranks about 3rd for intelligence, but she LOVES to learn. Happy on the other hand is extremly intelligent, just this morning the mail fell out of tjhe mailbox, my front door does not open so I picked Happy up, tossed her out the window and had her hand me the mail and jump back through the window. did I teach her this? nope, actually I have NEVER had her do anything even remotly silmiler before in her entire life. whenever my old naighbores dog ran off she came knockong on my door, because Happy and I were the only once who could catch him. once I was standing in the ally with Happy, the naighbores dog took off, Happy suddenly peeled off after him, and the next thing I knew Happy had Maxx correlled in the naighbores back yard. when I placed a ball under a 5 gallon pail, all th eother dogs circled the pale sniffing, Happy walked up grabbed the handle, flipped the pail, and took the ball as if it were the most obvious answer in the planet. she is extremly intelligent, but try training her! she wont have any part in it, I tried teaching her to wipe her face once by placing tape above her eye, she walked up to me and straed at me, pressering me till I took it off myself lol she does not find training fun, she is extremly well bahaved, but its her intelligence not her trainablity, she simply DOES what I ask her, weather or not I "trained" her to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCNTC Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 I mostly have to agree with you poodlefan, my little poodle learns so fast it feels like cheating. I have also trained a bright lab, and he was a funny one. Just as you thought You had an exercise licked, he would figure out another way of doing it. He wasn't one for a hell of a lot of drilling. lol this just reminded me of something! I know clicker training Happy is completly usless, if she does something that gets her a treat why the heck should she try something else? it makes it impossable to "shape" behaviours, I have to give her the treat for doing the while behaviour or no treat at all, because the second she gets that treat, thats the behaviour, think abot it from her veiw, just why should she fool around trying a bunch of cr*p she likley wont get anything for, when she knows the first time what the reward was for? lol the "anouther way of doing it" is what reminded me of some things Happy has done, like when I told her "sit. stay" so she sat and stayed in the sit. she moved around wherever the heck she pleased but she stayed in the sit! I was not sure what to do about that one, afterall, in all technicality she did exactly what I asked, I never told her to stay sitting in that spot, I just told her to stay sitting..and she did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatevah Posted May 20, 2006 Share Posted May 20, 2006 This is quite an interesting thread. One day I was at the top of a drive way, and my sleeping bag rolled down to the end about 30m. I told Josh to fetch it and he did. So funny!!!! I had a german shepherd once, that if my golden raced off, she would go and fetch the golden retriever by the ear and bring him back. One day my pet ferret went missing and I told the German Shepherd (Sheba) to find the ferret, and she did. She had never done any find it games, or even knew what a ferret was. The ferret was hiding under the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Clover Posted May 20, 2006 Share Posted May 20, 2006 Ohh dear why do stories of Happy remind me of Elvis and Tinny so much . Elvis will sit in front of me offering different behaviours just incase he does the right one and gets treated (Sometimes i let him keep going, quite an amusing sight :D ). El gets frustrated easily, it like he thinks im not smart enough to keep up with what he is doing/ trying to learn. Clover is not a bright dog but once she learns something she knows it for life (Like drop, it only took 3 years). If i or anyone else has food she is more than willing to give anything a go. This has been a very interesting read so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlet Posted May 20, 2006 Share Posted May 20, 2006 My father , now 85, grew up un the land and always worked dogs. Had mainly BC's and kelpies. He said that BC were easier to train because they "wanted " to please you. Said that kelpies were a little stubborn and had more a mind of their own. I know it's an old debate but he thought kelpies were smarter but harder to train. A few times he said a kelpie would disobey him but usually they were right-maybe getting an animal he couldn't see -they would have a good reason to disobey and would disobey if they "thought " they were right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herding_guy Posted May 20, 2006 Share Posted May 20, 2006 My father , now 85, grew up un the land and always worked dogs. Had mainly BC's and kelpies. He said that BC were easier to train because they "wanted " to please you. Said that kelpies were a little stubborn and had more a mind of their own. I know it's an old debate but he thought kelpies were smarter but harder to train. A few times he said a kelpie would disobey him but usually they were right-maybe getting an animal he couldn't see -they would have a good reason to disobey and would disobey if they "thought " they were right. This is very true( however there are always exceptions to the rule). I once was out with a gang of dogs, 3 young dogs (kelpies) all around 2 - 3yo and one old timer 12yo, herding a mob of 50 cattle. As the young dogs were working and doing an okay job I kept trying to send the 12yo out to join them but he refused and wouldn't leave my side for about an hour. All of a sudden the mob broke up and all 3 young dogs ran after the couple of bulls at the back of the mob and the lead cow made a break for a gateway to the open paddocks where I didn't want them to go. The 12yo suddenly bolted to the gateway and blocked their passage turning them back onto the right path. Once this was done he returned to my side and left it all to the youngsters. SMART DOG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lab and poodle Posted May 21, 2006 Share Posted May 21, 2006 "He said that BC were easier to train because they "wanted " to please you." I am no BC fan, and have always wondered whether this "desire to please" (DTP) for short should really be CLB "cringy little b***". .. and has nothing to do with intelligence. I am now waiting for the pot shots at my chosen breeds!! Labs are more GBB "Greedy big B*** ". We often call our old boy Kahilani Rubbish Truck, instead of Kahilani Winning Post". I have heard most of the rude things about poodles, but a few more could be refreshing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Clover Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 :D Mine are Mama's dogs, but can and will work/ train hard when they want, and can work for nothing (No food). CLB "cringy little b***". .. Bitch? or something else. I like Poodles so no "pot shots" from me . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted May 22, 2006 Share Posted May 22, 2006 One of my Tollers is extremely smart and he has taken forever to train to do the easiest of things, he always tries to figure aways around them and while he will do some things the first few times something much more rewarding must be offered or he switches off. He is a really smart dog and it doesnt help that he has an attention span of a fish lol. Nova tends to be a watcher he will watch things before attempting them himself. My other Toller is the Pinky from Pinky and the Brain, he is a goof ball who at times seems pretty dumb LOL but he has been heaps easier to train. For example on the weekend in flyball he was doing a full run but grabbing the ball out of someones hand as it was his first lesson in months (he is only a year old) it has taken Nova close to 3 years to achieve what Darcy did in one lesson. Both dogs are easily trained, you just have to keep Nova interested much much more then Darcy who is nearly always focussed on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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