Flames_Daddy Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 Hi Jefe's Owner. I am sorry to hear you had to endure the rantings of such ill-informed and ignorant people on what was supposed to be a fun day. Anyone who thinks a prong collar is cruel should put one on their own neck and feel what it does... that should dispell any myth about them being painful... all you feel is a minor pinch which is totally painless. The good thing is you are now prepared for "next time" - Good on you!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lab and poodle Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 I use a flat collar, or when tracking a harness. I select dogs too suit my needs, strong confident sometimes wilfull dogs, and I train them form the time I get home. I mostly use positive training techniques, and find little reason now to use otherwise. I despise choker collars, becuase it is not visible to most users exactly what is going on. Hence they become painful for most dogs. I despise even more the view often touted that it is the noise that causes the choker to work. What happens for them to work in the majority of cases is that the dog "remembers" the pain of a previous correction. I remember getting a lecture when I was learning to be an instructor because I put in a correction into my Lab becuase he decided to have a lie down rather than sit. Somehow he was supposed to respond to a slight jingle of the collar. If a slight jingle worked, I sure wouldn't have put the correction in. This is the trouble for this type of belief. It condemms a significant quantity of dogs and handlers to a half life, with no sight of an effective working relationship. A pinch collar is more effective, and requires much less force. While I believe that chokers should be flatly banned, or subject to consumer laws on the grounds that they don't work too hot, I believe that pinch collar use needs to be overseed by trainers for the sake of the dog and the handler. Honesty is neded in this discussion. Pain is used as a training method, no matter what your persuasion is.Say it, don't pretty it up. I use isolation, or the threat of a relationship meltdown with some strong words.It is not my main training method. I think if we want to hang on to our dogs, we need to communicate honestly and clearly to Joe Public with well researched material. There is so much half baked extremist stuff on both sides,it does everyone a disservice. One prime example of this is with the use of "E" collars. "E" collars work becuase they give the dog a shock. it is not a stimulation. The output of the collar hurts the dog, and probably plays with it's mind a bit because it dosen't understand electricity. The level of the percieved shock is dependent on a lot of complex variables, but output "power" or energy is not a good guide to how the dog will feel.Nor is how the shock feels applied to your arm I hate seeing graphs that pretend it is. I am not entirely sure, but most appliance manufacturers would "kill" to be allowed to use such paltry safety standards, and I believe that my Colleagues making electric fences are entirely bewildered. Despite all this, I would use an E collar if it meant that a dog got to avoid a green needle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 Land P: One prime example of this is with the use of "E" collars. "E" collars work becuase they give the dog a shock. it is not a stimulation. K9: this would depend on your own understanding of the word "shock" & the word "stimulation". L&P: The output of the collar hurts the dog, K9: this is always dependant on the level used, pain does not have to be part of e collar training. L&P: The level of the percieved shock is dependent on a lot of complex variables K9: might you explain what you think these variables are? L&P: Nor is how the shock feels applied to your arm I hate seeing graphs that pretend it is. K9: I ahve never seen any such graph that compares pain levels percieved by dogs based on what an e collar feels like on your arm. Can you show me one? L&P: and I believe that my Colleagues making electric fences are entirely bewildered. K9: As am I, but my reasons are:- 1. This thread isnt about e collars. 2. Electric fences do not operate any thing like an e collar. 3. I have never seen any of the graphs you speak of. 4. You seem to be jumping to conclusions on how the e collar works.. L&P: Despite all this, I would use an E collar if it meant that a dog got to avoid a green needle. K9: well thats nice to know but you might seek some professional instruction on its use first.. Modern e collar methods dont include pain & dont mess with the dogs mind at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lab and poodle Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 K9: this would depend on your own understanding of the word "shock" & the word "stimulation". "Stimulation" is usually meant to imply that a nerve or such is caused to react. iT would usually be limited to situations such as probes planted in the human brain to stimulate and prevent epilipsy. A shock can have many meanings as to level. If one searches or is familiar with safety standards, it would generally mean a level of electric current such that an unpleasant sensation is observed which could cause an unsafe situation such as an object to be dropped at one end of the spectrum, to there being a probability fo death at the other . L&P: The output of the collar hurts the dog, K9: this is always dependant on the level used, pain does not have to be part of e collar training. Pain is very subjective. Why avoid something that is not at least unpleasant or painful? Modern research shows humans are divided into those that like to get it over and done with, and those that will avoid it. (an electric shock was used for this experiment). Very different pictures of brain activity were produced. I would suggest that dogs are similar. L&P: The level of the percieved shock is dependent on a lot of complex variables K9: might you explain what you think these variables are? Well here are the ones off the top of my head. Stress, moisture, nerve wiring, location on the body, physical and mental condition of the subject. Prepardness for the shock, Voltage and duration of the shock. Current time and voltage time profiles. I am only starting. I don't mean to get narky, but professionally, I know a hell of a lot about shock and it's perception and how not to let it happen. I have also designed electric fence units too. last time i looked, they were still being made. L&P: Nor is how the shock feels applied to your arm I hate seeing graphs that pretend it is. K9: I ahve never seen any such graph that compares pain levels percieved by dogs based on what an e collar feels like on your arm. Can you show me one? If you look up several e collar sellers in this country, they are (were fond) of showing that the standard for an electric fence allows 20 joules.(which it does). They then compared it to the energy output of an E collar which is relatively small.This 20 joules though is not a measure of percieved shock, but a measure of how much energy the grass as well as the "shocked" animal gets. The "shocked" animal gets very little of this energy. It is very different. L&P: and I believe that my Colleagues making electric fences are entirely bewildered. They are very bewildered becuase things that are regarded as ok for E collars aren't allowed for fences. There are 2 standards here. K9: As am I, but my reasons are:- 1. This thread isnt about e collars. 2. Electric fences do not operate any thing like an e collar. Sorry, they do. They put out a voltage . It causes a shock. On a fence the animal has let go time which they generally use to get away. On a collar, they rely on you to do that. Worse, on some collars they have continuous settings, and have no way other than you to get away from it. The method is the same, the technology is the same. The difference is that an E collar is smaller,and remote controlled. 3. I have never seen any of the graphs you speak of. 4. You seem to be jumping to conclusions on how the e collar works.. L&P: Despite all this, I would use an E collar if it meant that a dog got to avoid a green needle. K9: well thats nice to know but you might seek some professional instruction on its use first.. Off course I would, just as I would expect someone with very little electrical experience to check out the facts of shock with someone who knows one end of an electron from the other. Modern e collar methods dont include pain & dont mess with the dogs mind at all... Where is this research outside of some manufacturers pleading? I will read it, and see if I can find it. I just seemed to have a bit of bother when I fired up my search engine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 L&P: "Stimulation" is usually meant to imply that a nerve or such is caused to react. iT would usually be limited to situations such as probes planted in the human brain to stimulate and prevent epilipsy. K9: not sure where you got that from, but stimulation commonly means : http://""' target="_blank">stim·u·la·tion (stmy-lshn) n. Arousal of the body or of individual organs or other parts to increased functional activity. The condition of being stimulated. The application of a stimulus to a responsive structure, such as a nerve or muscle, regardless of whether the strength of the stimulus is sufficient to produce excitation. L&P: A shock can have many meanings as to level. If one searches or is familiar with safety standards, it would generally mean a level of electric current such that an unpleasant sensation is observed which could cause an unsafe situation such as an object to be dropped at one end of the spectrum, to there being a probability fo death at the other . K9: This is why they are not called shock collars. The term unpleasant doesnt have to associated with pain either... L&P: Pain is very subjective. Why avoid something that is not at least unpleasant or painful? K9: again, unpleasant doesnt mean painful. Also who said anything about avoiding anything? Surely your aware that there are other forms of training than avoidance training... L&P: Modern research shows humans are divided into those that like to get it over and done with, and those that will avoid it. (an electric shock was used for this experiment). Very different pictures of brain activity were produced. I would suggest that dogs are similar. K9: in the last post you seemed to be saying that what a human feels from an e collar is somewhat different to a dog & now they are similar? I would like to see the study, can you referemnce it please. Im sure though that the study was completed using an electric shock that would be deemed as painful? L&P: Well here are the ones off the top of my head. Stress, moisture, nerve wiring, location on the body, physical and mental condition of the subject. K9: stress is a part of all dogs training, good trainers know how to avoid creating stress & reduce it if it is present. Moisture only provides a different resistance value, the collars are designed not to deliver more or less current regardless of resistance. Nerve wiring is constant in the animals neck, once the collar is fitted the level at which the dog is trained can be determined & rarely, even given all of the examples, does it change... On this topic, could you tell me what procedure you feel would be correct in fitting an e collar & training the dog? L&P: Prepardness for the shock, Voltage and duration of the shock. K9: prepardness of the shock would be the dog anticipating the handlers actions, same with any training tool. Voltage is simply the pressure applied to the current, fixed & contrlled by the collar manufacturer & the level chosen. L&P: Current time and voltage time profiles. I am only starting. I don't mean to get narky, but professionally, I know a hell of a lot about shock and it's perception and how not to let it happen. K9: whilst I am not calling you on your electrical experience, some of the things you have mentioned fall outside th realms of e collar training, & I do wonder how experienced you are with electricity in terms of dogs training. Maybe if you answer the above questions that will help me... L&P: I have also designed electric fence units too. last time i looked, they were still being made. K9: Congratulations on the design, but elevtric fences have a completly different design & operation to e collars. I also never said that e fences werent being made? L&P: If you look up several e collar sellers in this country, they are (were fond) of showing that the standard for an electric fence allows 20 joules.(which it does). They then compared it to the energy output of an E collar which is relatively small.This 20 joules though is not a measure of percieved shock, but a measure of how much energy the grass as well as the "shocked" animal gets. The "shocked" animal gets very little of this energy. It is very different. K9: Ok great, but what you said previously was: L&P The level of the percieved shock is dependent on a lot of complex variables, but output "power" or energy is not a good guide to how the dog will feel.Nor is how the shock feels applied to your arm I hate seeing graphs that pretend it is. K9: you indicate that there are charts that pretend that a dog feels the output as a human would, but now your talking in elecal output... L&P : They are very bewildered becuase things that are regarded as ok for E collars aren't allowed for fences. There are 2 standards here. K9: you are aware that e collars & electric fences operate on 2 different principles Im sure so why would they be governed by the same standards? L&P: Sorry, they do. They put out a voltage . It causes a shock. On a fence the animal has let go time which they generally use to get away. On a collar, they rely on you to do that. Worse, on some collars they have continuous settings, and have no way other than you to get away from it. The method is the same, the technology is the same. The difference is that an E collar is smaller,and remote controlled. K9: Ok this is where I see your confused, your electric fence uses the dogs central nervous system to complete the circuit & the ground is mother earth. E collars have both the negative & positive probe built into the collar, the circuit isnt the dogs central nervous system, but the section of skin between the two probes, approx 30mm... L&P: Off course I would, just as I would expect someone with very little electrical experience to check out the facts of shock with someone who knows one end of an electron from the other. K9: perhaps it would be wise yto make those type of comments after yo know how much electrical education I do or dont have... Or perhaps after you read the section I wrote above on how each of the two devices work... L&P: Where is this research outside of some manufacturers pleading? I will read it, and see if I can find it. I just seemed to have a bit of bother when I fired up my search engine K9: well perhaps you could supply some of the information I asked you for in terms of graphs etc first, the information doorway works both ways... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lab and poodle Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 L&P: "Stimulation" is usually meant to imply that a nerve or such is caused to react. iT would usually be limited to situations such as probes planted in the human brain to stimulate and prevent epilipsy. K9: not sure where you got that from, but stimulation commonly means : [*]Arousal of the body or of individual organs or other parts to increased functional activity. [*]The condition of being stimulated. [*]The application of a stimulus to a responsive structure, such as a nerve or muscle, regardless of whether the strength of the stimulus is sufficient to produce excitation. L&P: A shock can have many meanings as to level. If one searches or is familiar with safety standards, it would generally mean a level of electric current such that an unpleasant sensation is observed which could cause an unsafe situation such as an object to be dropped at one end of the spectrum, to there being a probability fo death at the other . You have used the dictionairy definition, fair enough. I was using a rough biomedical definition K9: This is why they are not called shock collars. The term unpleasant doesnt have to associated with pain either... That is true. There are many examples of human behaviour where pain and pleasure go hand in hand. It is away away from my experience though. L&P: Pain is very subjective. Why avoid something that is not at least unpleasant or painful? K9: again, unpleasant doesnt mean painful. Also who said anything about avoiding anything? Surely your aware that there are other forms of training than avoidance training... I take it that you ask in jest. I will leave it in jest. L&P: Modern research shows humans are divided into those that like to get it over and done with, and those that will avoid it. (an electric shock was used for this experiment). Very different pictures of brain activity were produced. I would suggest that dogs are similar. This was in the weekend age (a Melbourne paper). I have got in on my desk to follow up. K9: in the last post you seemed to be saying that what a human feels from an e collar is somewhat different to a dog & now they are similar? No The answer is that we have very little idea. Or we can do is observe the behaviour of a dog during shock, as it is very hard to measure their responses during shock as the shock generally overloads the sensors that would normally measure their responses. I would like to see the study, can you referemnce it please. Im sure though that the study was completed using an electric shock that would be deemed as painful? Again, the perception of pain and the response to pain is extremely variable. MAy be it will be the field of these new hapiness studies that are starting to happen. I can ferret out papers that I have read in the past, but this is my holiday and you will just have to believe me. L&P: Well here are the ones off the top of my head. Stress, moisture, nerve wiring, location on the body, physical and mental condition of the subject. K9: stress is a part of all dogs training, good trainers know how to avoid creating stress & reduce it if it is present. I have no disagreement with this at all, except sometimes feel that a little bit of stress correctly applied can help make a dog make the correct decision. Moisture only provides a different resistance value, the collars are designed not to deliver more or less current regardless of resistance. Moisture does change the resistance and so does hydration. You are seeing a 2D situation when in fact a 3D situation exists. If the device is approximately current regulated, then an upper value of voltage is used when very little current flows as the limit. Nerve wiring is constant in the animals neck, once the collar is fitted the level at which the dog is trained can be determined & rarely, even given all of the examples, does it change... We don't know, because the dog can't talk to us. We also tend to interpret dog language to suit us, i.e some people would call some appeasement stratergies a "desire to please", where I would call them a grovel,so we might not notice changes. Also fat levels change quite a bit, particually with the seasons and some gun dog diets. On this topic, could you tell me what procedure you feel would be correct in fitting an e collar & training the dog? Absolutely not. I haven't had to use one, and I really don't have to use one. If I needed to, I would be pointing the handler and dog to a professional. I doubt wheter the situation would arise with my own dogs L&P: Prepardness for the shock, Voltage and duration of the shock. K9: prepardness of the shock would be the dog anticipating the handlers actions, same with any training tool. This is a major problem, see what most tracking failures are. Voltage is simply the pressure applied to the current, fixed & contrlled by the collar manufacturer & the level chosen. I don't mean to be unkind, but you can't have voltage regulation and current regulation happening all at once. I wish it was quite that simple,and quite that easy to do, becuase I would be going to the Rugby World cup, not staying here in Melbourne. L&P: Current time and voltage time profiles. I am only starting. I don't mean to get narky, but professionally, I know a hell of a lot about shock and it's perception and how not to let it happen. The big debate about perception of shock is in very brief terms is whether a very short high pulse is more effective than a longer low pulse. At the E fence level, the second option is more or less mandated due to EMI rules .(Radio and TV reception) . I don't agree with it at all, but that's another story. These points still hold for an E collar. Perception is also more difficult because while we have talked in terms of Voltage and current and introduced time, even with a dog's neck a more complex impedance is presented.It is very hard to get it down on a forum. It just isn't that easy. K9: whilst I am not calling you on your electrical experience, some of the things you have mentioned fall outside th realms of e collar training, & I do wonder how experienced you are with electricity in terms of dogs training. Maybe if you answer the above questions that will help me... L&P: I have also designed electric fence units too. last time i looked, they were still being made. K9: Congratulations on the design, but elevtric fences have a completly different design & operation to e collars. I also never said that e fences werent being made? L&P: If you look up several e collar sellers in this country, they are (were fond) of showing that the standard for an electric fence allows 20 joules.(which it does). They then compared it to the energy output of an E collar which is relatively small.This 20 joules though is not a measure of percieved shock, but a measure of how much energy the grass as well as the "shocked" animal gets. The "shocked" animal gets very little of this energy. It is very different. K9: Ok great, but what you said previously was: L&P The level of the percieved shock is dependent on a lot of complex variables, but output "power" or energy is not a good guide to how the dog will feel.Nor is how the shock feels applied to your arm I hate seeing graphs that pretend it is. Yep. The test is usually by the CSIRO, and compares a bar graph showing the energy output of an E collar and an electric fence. I noticed it during the xmas holidays and had a bit of a giggle. K9: you indicate that there are charts that pretend that a dog feels the output as a human would, but now your talking in elecal output... No. Bad grammar or english on my part. What I was referring to was the process where e collar merchants suggest that the tingle in a human fore arm is the same as what the dog feels. L&P : They are very bewildered becuase things that are regarded as ok for E collars aren't allowed for fences. There are 2 standards here. K9: you are aware that e collars & electric fences operate on 2 different principles Im sure so why would they be governed by the same standards? L&P: Sorry, they do. They put out a voltage . It causes a shock. On a fence the animal has let go time which they generally use to get away. On a collar, they rely on you to do that. Worse, on some collars they have continuous settings, and have no way other than you to get away from it. The method is the same, the technology is the same. The difference is that an E collar is smaller,and remote controlled. K9: Ok this is where I see your confused, your electric fence uses the dogs central nervous system to complete the circuit & the ground is mother earth. All this is electrically, is a minor terminal relocation. Ok, but humans have access to them,E collars and E fences and do stupid things. We are supposed to design to this. Don't ever get the idea that E fence standards are too much about animals. I am applying the same standards here. E collars have both the negative & positive probe built into the collar, the circuit isnt the dogs central nervous system, but the section of skin between the two probes, approx 30mm... We hope. As I explained above, it is much more complex than that. A better picture is to imagine the two probes as having circles around them going further and further into the animal. These circles represent conduction pathways. One must also be aware that the layer under the skin is much more conductive than the skin too... L&P: Off course I would, just as I would expect someone with very little electrical experience to check out the facts of shock with someone who knows one end of an electron from the other. K9: perhaps it would be wise yto make those type of comments after yo know how much electrical education I do or dont have... Or perhaps after you read the section I wrote above on how each of the two devices work... I didn't have an earth shattering change of mind. L&P: Where is this research outside of some manufacturers pleading? I will read it, and see if I can find it. I just seemed to have a bit of bother when I fired up my search engine K9: well perhaps you could supply some of the information I asked you for in terms of graphs etc first, the information doorway works both ways... I have done the best I can, and we have lost the point I was making. I will restate it in different words, I don't like what choker collars do to handlers or dogs. I prefer not to use E collars or pinch collars, but if you do, I think you have to call a spade a spade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 L&P: You have used the dictionairy definition, fair enough. I was using a rough biomedical definition K9: well as we are all english speaking here I thought I would quote from the Dictionary of the Englishg language, not the Bio medical quote book... :rolleyes: Im not sure I like rough biomedical anything btw LP: Surely your aware that there are other forms of training than avoidance training...I take it that you ask in jest. I will leave it in jest. K9: No it was serious question, but I will rephrase it... Q: Are you aware that there are other methods of training with the e collar than avoidance training? LP: This was in the weekend age (a Melbourne paper). I have got in on my desk to follow up. K9: thanks for that, but I wont really accept a dog training reference from a Tabloid newspaper.. LP: No The answer is that we have very little idea. Or we can do is observe the behaviour of a dog during shock, as it is very hard to measure their responses during shock as the shock generally overloads the sensors that would normally measure their responses. K9: Ah now I see, you would really benefit from a demonstration of my e collar training, most people cant tell when the dog is being stimulated, the levels I use are so low, the dog can just percieve it... LP: Again, the perception of pain and the response to pain is extremely variable. MAy be it will be the field of these new hapiness studies that are starting to happen. I can ferret out papers that I have read in the past, but this is my holiday and you will just have to believe me. K9: well thats not going to happen... I can back up anything I say I can, if I say I can train your dog to do something or I can train without pain, I will be happy to demo it rather than say you will have to trust me... LP: I have no disagreement with this at all, except sometimes feel that a little bit of stress correctly applied can help make a dog make the correct decision. K9: certainly, stress is the aversion in this case... lp: Moisture does change the resistance and so does hydration. You are seeing a 2D situation when in fact a 3D situation exists. If the device is approximately current regulated, then an upper value of voltage is used when very little current flows as the limit. K9: thats what I just said? LP: We don't know, because the dog can't talk to us. K9: Talking is a very limited means of communication. Hence my reluctance to accept "you will just have to believe me". Reading body language, even in humans as you seem to like the comparison, has been deemed a far higher level of communication than speaking... K9 asked :on this topic, could you tell me what procedure you feel would be correct in fitting an e collar & training the dog? LP response: Absolutely not. I haven't had to use one, and I really don't have to use one. If I needed to, I would be pointing the handler and dog to a professional. I doubt wheter the situation would arise with my own dogs K9: This is why having only half the knowledge is a dangerous thing. Reading a dog body language is quite easy & accurate when one knows how. Using an e collar is very simple to do with great success... Comments like these LP wrote": Also fat levels change quite a bit, particually with the seasons and some gun dog diets. K9: Each time the collar is fitted to a dog, the working level, ie the level the dog can just percieve the stim, is determined by the dogs first feeling of the lowest level. That level is not assigned to the dog for ever, in fact it may be adjusted up or down many times during a training session, good collars have many levels starting very low, meaning that going up a level is as little as a 7% increase over the previosu level... So whether or not frome season to season or not the fat content of a dog changes is irrelavant... LP: The big debate about perception of shock is in very brief terms is whether a very short high pulse is more effective than a longer low pulse. At the E fence level, the second option is more or less mandated due to EMI rules .(Radio and TV reception) . I don't agree with it at all, but that's another story. These points still hold for an E collar. Perception is also more difficult because while we have talked in terms of Voltage and current and introduced time, even with a dog's neck a more complex impedance is presented.It is very hard to get it down on a forum. It just isn't that easy. K9: you dont strike me as someone who has difficulty being technical.. but I agree with you there. Thats why strapping a collar on a dog & seeing what I do would be of huge benefit to you.. Many things look a lot different on paper than in practice... LP: Yep. The test is usually by the CSIRO, and compares a bar graph showing the energy output of an E collar and an electric fence. I noticed it during the xmas holidays and had a bit of a giggle. K9: I actually have the graph, I believe from memory the test was conducted in NZ... It isnt relevant to dog training at all, Im sure its meant as a graphical display for those that need something like that to feel better about collars... Its like how clean diesel smoke is compared to car exhaust, really irrelavant when you consider the soot... LP: No. Bad grammar or english on my part. What I was referring to was the process where e collar merchants suggest that the tingle in a human fore arm is the same as what the dog feels. K9: can you prove it isnt? K9: Ok this is where I see your confused, your electric fence uses the dogs central nervous system to complete the circuit & the ground is mother earth.All this is electrically, is a minor terminal relocation. K9: Im not sure how minor it is when it is your central nervous system thats carrying the current. Its not a terminal, its a dog... You need to get out of the lab K9: E collars have both the negative & positive probe built into the collar, the circuit isnt the dogs central nervous system, but the section of skin between the two probes, approx 30mm...LP: We hope K9: we know, electricity takes the easiest path... They know that the earth probe completes the circuit, not the dog. (thats in conventional theory) LP: A better picture is to imagine the two probes as having circles around them going further and further into the animal. These circles represent conduction pathways. One must also be aware that the layer under the skin is much more conductive than the skin too... K9: the best test is a FIELD test, you need to test one on a dog then talk to me... I think I have demonstrated Im not a total dummy in the field of electricity, but this is only what I have studied before I would use a collar on a dog. Thats the commitment I have to my work... LP: I didn't have an earth shattering change of mind. K9: bring your dog along, thats when the magic happens... I see your new here, if you get the chance to attend a workshop, I will demo all I have said & more with pleasure.. Take Care.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lab and poodle Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 L&P: You have used the dictionairy definition, fair enough. I was using a rough biomedical definition K9: well as we are all english speaking here I thought I would quote from the Dictionary of the Englishg language, not the Bio medical quote book... :rolleyes: Im not sure I like rough biomedical anything btw LP: Surely your aware that there are other forms of training than avoidance training...I take it that you ask in jest. I will leave it in jest. K9: No it was serious question, but I will rephrase it... Q: Are you aware that there are other methods of training with the e collar than avoidance training? LP: This was in the weekend age (a Melbourne paper). I have got in on my desk to follow up. K9: thanks for that, but I wont really accept a dog training reference from a Tabloid newspaper.. LP: No The answer is that we have very little idea. Or we can do is observe the behaviour of a dog during shock, as it is very hard to measure their responses during shock as the shock generally overloads the sensors that would normally measure their responses. K9: Ah now I see, you would really benefit from a demonstration of my e collar training, most people cant tell when the dog is being stimulated, the levels I use are so low, the dog can just percieve it... LP: Again, the perception of pain and the response to pain is extremely variable. MAy be it will be the field of these new hapiness studies that are starting to happen. I can ferret out papers that I have read in the past, but this is my holiday and you will just have to believe me. K9: well thats not going to happen... I can back up anything I say I can, if I say I can train your dog to do something or I can train without pain, I will be happy to demo it rather than say you will have to trust me... LP: I have no disagreement with this at all, except sometimes feel that a little bit of stress correctly applied can help make a dog make the correct decision. K9: certainly, stress is the aversion in this case... lp: Moisture does change the resistance and so does hydration. You are seeing a 2D situation when in fact a 3D situation exists. If the device is approximately current regulated, then an upper value of voltage is used when very little current flows as the limit. K9: thats what I just said? LP: We don't know, because the dog can't talk to us. K9: Talking is a very limited means of communication. Hence my reluctance to accept "you will just have to believe me". Reading body language, even in humans as you seem to like the comparison, has been deemed a far higher level of communication than speaking... K9 asked :on this topic, could you tell me what procedure you feel would be correct in fitting an e collar & training the dog? LP response: Absolutely not. I haven't had to use one, and I really don't have to use one. If I needed to, I would be pointing the handler and dog to a professional. I doubt wheter the situation would arise with my own dogs K9: This is why having only half the knowledge is a dangerous thing. Reading a dog body language is quite easy & accurate when one knows how. Using an e collar is very simple to do with great success... Comments like these LP wrote": Also fat levels change quite a bit, particually with the seasons and some gun dog diets. K9: Each time the collar is fitted to a dog, the working level, ie the level the dog can just percieve the stim, is determined by the dogs first feeling of the lowest level. That level is not assigned to the dog for ever, in fact it may be adjusted up or down many times during a training session, good collars have many levels starting very low, meaning that going up a level is as little as a 7% increase over the previosu level... So whether or not frome season to season or not the fat content of a dog changes is irrelavant... LP: The big debate about perception of shock is in very brief terms is whether a very short high pulse is more effective than a longer low pulse. At the E fence level, the second option is more or less mandated due to EMI rules .(Radio and TV reception) . I don't agree with it at all, but that's another story. These points still hold for an E collar. Perception is also more difficult because while we have talked in terms of Voltage and current and introduced time, even with a dog's neck a more complex impedance is presented.It is very hard to get it down on a forum. It just isn't that easy. K9: you dont strike me as someone who has difficulty being technical.. but I agree with you there. Thats why strapping a collar on a dog & seeing what I do would be of huge benefit to you.. Many things look a lot different on paper than in practice... LP: Yep. The test is usually by the CSIRO, and compares a bar graph showing the energy output of an E collar and an electric fence. I noticed it during the xmas holidays and had a bit of a giggle. K9: I actually have the graph, I believe from memory the test was conducted in NZ... It isnt relevant to dog training at all, Im sure its meant as a graphical display for those that need something like that to feel better about collars... Its like how clean diesel smoke is compared to car exhaust, really irrelavant when you consider the soot... LP: No. Bad grammar or english on my part. What I was referring to was the process where e collar merchants suggest that the tingle in a human fore arm is the same as what the dog feels. K9: can you prove it isnt? K9: Ok this is where I see your confused, your electric fence uses the dogs central nervous system to complete the circuit & the ground is mother earth.All this is electrically, is a minor terminal relocation. K9: Im not sure how minor it is when it is your central nervous system thats carrying the current. Its not a terminal, its a dog... You need to get out of the lab I actually work in one, because I earnt the right to be there. I have two TAFE level diplomas, (how practical is that), and two funny things with (hons) after them. And now I am going for the one that will make me the laughing stock of pollies and the community. Never mind, without us lot, there would be no technology and we wouldn't have a computer to type on. K9: E collars have both the negative & positive probe built into the collar, the circuit isnt the dogs central nervous system, but the section of skin between the two probes, approx 30mm...LP: We hope K9: we know, electricity takes the easiest path... They know that the earth probe completes the circuit, not the dog. (thats in conventional theory) Thats the problem. The current takes the path proportional to the resistance of the path. There are many paths that all carry a little bit of current. A very good friend of mine runs a business in New Zealand predicting the current paths around power stations. It is very complex and very challenging. The general field is called finite elemnet analysis. LP: A better picture is to imagine the two probes as having circles around them going further and further into the animal. These circles represent conduction pathways. One must also be aware that the layer under the skin is much more conductive than the skin too... K9: the best test is a FIELD test, you need to test one on a dog then talk to me... Thats the point. I will not not use something that is so unpredictable even though it produces good results unless it becomes neccessary. Believe you me I believe full stop that it is a dam sight more humane and accurate than a choker collar which is horrificably variable and stupid and old fashioned. I would happily issue every person with a choker if I had the funds, an electric collar if they would throw the choker away, and agree to take some lessons. A more extreme analogy is ECT. Quite a few people with severe depression finally use ECT because the risks outweigh the benefits, and nothing else works. Believe you me even less is really known what happens with ECT than with the E collar scenario. I think in younger days before I got my lovely lab going, I would have thought about it. He is on old boys rules now (at 12.5) and still in flair and speed of response would give a lot of younger dogs a go. Just the thought of a bit of "work" gets him going. Unlike 95% of labs, his weight is kept at the 30Kg mark. My new dog is a 13 week old minature poodle. I think I am cheating, she is so responsive. I took her to dog school last week, she introduced herself to a few selected dogs,(by me) and then she was keen to get on with it. I had to shake my head with disbelief she was so focuced for a little one. Of course I didn't train her that way! and I didn't spend 6 years tracking down the sort of poodle I wanted LP: I didn't have an earth shattering change of mind. K9: bring your dog along, thats when the magic happens... I see your new here, if you get the chance to attend a workshop, I will demo all I have said & more with pleasure.. I will one day.. but I can be a pedantic pain in the **** Take Care.. You too!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 Can anyone show me something factual that says prong collars are indeed legal for use in NSW please???? Have just been speaking to someone who is doing the Delta course and they were told that they are illegal. I have always thought they were legal in NSW, but now I am not so sure........... :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 Can anyone show me something factual that says prong collars are indeed legal for use in NSW please???? Hi Dru. IMO, if it ISN'T STATED in the NSW Act (Domestic, Feral & Nuisance Act?) that the prong is ILLEGAL, then it's not. "There are none so blind as those who will not see" ....... and I thought that only applied to the Victorian Government - who saw (?) fit to ban it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 I searched the web extensively for information regarding the use of pinch collars in NSW a few months ago - and found nothing. Found the legislation for Victoria, but nothing in NSW. I searched POCTAA, Companion Animals Act, anything I could think of, came up with nothing on legality at all. I have had lots of people at training tell me they are illegal, and that they would sic the RSPCA on anyone who had one but they have never shown any proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 (edited) It's not mentioned here either.......... http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/con.../poctaa1979360/ Reading that again, I dont think its' been updated since 1979. So how could we find out for sure? K9? Anyone? Edited May 9, 2006 by Dru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 erny is right, theres no legislation stating they are illegal to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 Could someone send me to the legislation where it would be mentioned if they were to be mentioned at all please? :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 L&P I ahve out this video here previously, but Ill do it again for the purpose of the ecollar conversation and is the dog that has the ecollar on. Pls tell us when are the moments when the dog receives the stimulation. The handlers finger on the remote doenst mean that the dog is stumulated at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 I think it would either be in POCTAA or the Companion Animals Act if anything? As these are the pieces of legislation that deal with animals in NSW. If I remember correctly (feel free to say if I am wrong), it is in an amendment to POCTAA in Victoria? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 L&P: I actually work in one, because I earnt the right to be there. I have two TAFE level diplomas, (how practical is that), and two funny things with (hons) after them. And now I am going for the one that will make me the laughing stock of pollies and the community. Never mind, without us lot, there would be no technology and we wouldn't have a computer to type on. K9: Maybe this will make things clearer for you. You have posted dog training information here. Dog training isnt a lab test, its a practical thing that is determined by temperament. This means that logic doesnt always play a part & lab tests rarely play a part... If you would like to be able to contribute to these type of discussions, my advice to get out of the lab is valid... L&P: Thats the problem. The current takes the path proportional to the resistance of the path. There are many paths that all carry a little bit of current. A very good friend of mine runs a business in New Zealand predicting the current paths around power stations. It is very complex and very challenging. The general field is called finite elemnet analysis. K9: lol an e collar isnt a power station, used on lowest levels, its very passive... L&P: Thats the point. I will not not use something K9: & this is where our conversation must end, your talking theory, Im talking reality... You have never used a collar, but have apparently designed an electric fence... Totally different style of aid... Your talking from what you "think" may happen... Not what you have seen happen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 Dru: Can anyone show me something factual that says prong collars are indeed legal for use in NSW please???? Have just been speaking to someone who is doing the Delta course and they were told that they are illegal. I have always thought they were legal in NSW, but now I am not so sure........... K9: its not written, like its not written that check chains or clickers are legal... Delta will say that & other things that have no backing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddog21 Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 Jefe's owners, I don't think the people who approached you were on the RCNSW Committee or organisers of the Fun Day. I also hope this thread dosen't turn into a RCNSW bashing exercise. What happened to you was distressing for yourselves and I imagine the organisers especially Wednesday, who put so much effort into this day. The RCNSW Committee investigated the matter of prong collars in 2004 and received advice that the importation of the collars is illegal, but having them is not illegal, even those made in Australia, but using them in a particular way could be subject to charges under the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act. Advice from the Animal Welfare League is that: “If a person chooses to use a prong collar on a dog and the dog either lunges forward or the handler pulls the lead attached to the collar it would constitute an act of cruelty as defined under the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act. It should also be noted that these collars are a prohibited import into Australia under Federal Legislation but there is no stipulation that they cannot be made in Australia.” We have also received similar advice from the RSPCA: “Prong collars are not illegal in NSW. Having said this, if an owner was to pull on the collar and cause injury to the dog because of the prongs, there would be cause to prosecute under the Prevention of Cruelty Act.” It a seems if the dog does not seem overly aggressive to other dogs, or if the owner is not a very good trainer himself then he has no need to have it on his dog in the first place. I hope this clears it up for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffo Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 I had a similar experience with my GSD, Ellie, just a couple of weeks ago. We used to go training at my local GSDC here in the Hunter region. About 3 weeks after i had started using a prong collar, the head trainer noticed it. He told me that she could not train at that ground or club with that collar on. I told him i had received lessons on how to use it correctly by a trainer (K9) and he said that he didnt care that they are illegal and it was not open to discussion. I was a bit taken aback as this was said in front of everyone, not quietly to the side. i since found out that the are NOT illegal in NSW - I came home almost in tears and wrote Steve an email asking him if he had given me an illegal collar lol. Of course he hadn't, but my step father called the RSPCA to hear it from them for some ammo. And they confirmed that they were legal and, although they wished otherwise, they had no evidence to prove they are inhumane. I was so frustrated and upset because I am looked on as being cruel and evil for using a prong collar, while the GS club in my region ONLY allows CHECK/CHOKE collars to be used - and they stand by watching while their members to reef their dogs around with a check collar (and many of them are not simply checking - they are dragging) but apparently that must be humane. Well i was going to write an email to them telling them just what stupid, misinformed idiots they were, but knew it would only fall on deaf ears – I didn’t waste my time. So I haven't gone back there again and i will find other ways to socialise Ellie. I will leave the job of ‘fixing stupid’ to K9 !! lol I am just really angry at the double standards and the way i am made to feel evil for the careful choice i have made for me and my dog. Anyways, at the end of the day, when someone tells you they are illegal you can just sit back and laugh at them because it is proof right there that they do not know what they are talking about. And who wants their dog to be trained by people who are not even up to speed with basic dog affairs? NOT ME! I might have to travel 3 hours each way to see k9, but it is worth every minute. At least he knows what he is talking about. Anyways i just wanted to tell you that i know exactly how you are feeling, and it is indeed a horrible feeling. They can make you feel like the most horrible abusive dog owner, but you should hold your head high in knowing that you are doing the right thing for you and your dog (and his neck!!) Rachelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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