Jefe's owners Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 I was going to post this on the social forum, but this is more training and legal stuff related, and I'm so upset about it, so here it goes... We woke up this morning and very happy, coz we were going to the "Rotti Fun Day".. .. we arrived to the Bill Spilstead complex and everything looked ok. Lots of dogs and lots of rotties... (gotta love a rotti)... there we confirmed that: 1.- Jefe is gorgeous 2.- Jefe is a gorgeous and small rottweiler 3.- Jefe is a gorgeous, small and underweight rottweiler (we are getting there though) When we arrived on site a lady approached us and made mention of the prong collar being illegal and that I should remove it. I told the lady that they were only ilegal in victoria and left the collar on and decided not to pay more attention to the matter... It was all very good, with Jefe participating in a couple of agility exercises, which surprised us both how easily the dog performed the exercises... the weaving poles and pipe tunnels in one go... (well after some initial hesitation), the A frame I think is called also one go.... all that made me wonder if the dog had done that sort of work before? but lets leave that for a while.. after less than 30 minutes on the site I was approached by to gentlemen, one identifying himself as the director of the Bill Spilstead complex and the other as something else... I don't remember names (note to self, next time write down names, positions, phones, email, etc) and they told me that they had received complains that my dog was wearing a ilegal collar and that I should remove it from the dog. They told me, among other things and I quote " X is the director of this site and we know about this. The collar is ilegal, and if someone calls the police you would be arrested, or if the RSPCA catch me they would fine me and possible take the dog away from me", as I was in no mood for arguments, and not wanting to cause any troubles, I removed the collar from the dog and left the flat collar on. One of the guys wanted to take the collar from me, but I never let go (ITS MY COLLAR AND YOU WOULD ONLY TAKE IT FROM MY COLD DEAD FINGERS were my thoughts), so no success there. I found amusing that nobody seemed to mind the check chains on most of the dogs, not only on the rottis fun day event but also the dog competition on the same site, nor seem to care about the dogs being dragged with the check chain ...yet everyone seem to mind the prong (and I'm pretty sure there was at least another rottweiler wearing one). Having removed the collar the two men left, but the damage was already done... the missus and I were both upset and this was no longer a fun day. so we put the collar back and decided to leave. On our way home I was still feeling very frustrated, so I decided to ring RSPCA. and I was told the by the call centre operator (name witheld) and I quote again "Pinch or Prong collars are not ilegal. The only ilegal collars in NSW are electric shock collars. The RSPCA does not condone the use of pinch collars, or check chains for that matter, and would only intervene when there is evidence of dog abuse". Fair enough... more on dog abuse later on the post... Back into agility talk... Seeing the dog was very good at the agility stuff, we got pretty enthusiastic about it and thought it would be a great way to exercise the dog, so we decided to check our local dog training club, WHICH WE ARE NOT MEMBERS OF AND NOW WILL NEVER BE, about agility training. When we arrived to the club there were both basic and advanced classes being run. We were informed that they don't run agility in there and recommended me XXXXX XXX agility training. Back into dog abuse and check chaing talk... As I was walking nicely with Jefe on a lose leash as always, we couldn't help but notice the check chain in most of the dogs, and how they were being choked when practicing the 'Heel'... :rolleyes: poor buggers... in one instance there was this idiot with a Jack Russell, who pulled the leash so hard to get the dog back in position that the poor thing actually made a full circle around the man ON THE AIR... ... and there was this lady with a Rhodesian pup (about 8 months, not too big) that she was pulling the leash so hard that she was wearing a brick glove!!! this pup was also being dragged... and all this in front of the trainer and the %#^*&*$ did nothing about it! If that was not dog abuse I don't know what it is! As this club is member of the RNSWCC, I guess the RSPCA is doing nothing about it. What upsets me the most was that everybode on the RFD seemed to accept the check chain (or better called choke chain) and the abuse going on, yet some people seemed horrified to see a very happy and playful dog wearing a prong collar. :cool: I have never had the need to apply any pressure or force on the leash when using a prong collar, in fact I have never applied any correction to the dog either and the dog will correct itself. I'm sure that every owner on these forums that uses a prong collar will have similar experience with their dogs... So, here come the questions. Does anyone has a writen confirmation that the prong collar is not ilegal in NSW? I know they are illegal in victoria as I found the respective legislation. Does anyone have any information that the prong collar is ilegal on some councils? I plan to carry a print out of such information with me all the time, for future events... ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 Ditto...I'd like to know if prong collars are illegal in Qld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wazzat Xolo Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 http://www.workingdogmagazine.com/index.php There is an article in this Mag that may be worthwhile in reading!! I have also read ( Dog forum somewhere) that if a Vet issues a certificate for their use ( ie to reduce back/neck injury) then there use is permitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 human ignorance never stops to amaze me.... Not 100% sure and cant check right now, but I think that there is a clause that no prongs are to be worn at the CC grounds. Or maybe that is only a rule for the ET test?? will someone be able to find out please. i have been pulled up on Rex wearing one as well, by an exhibitor and as I kind of know the exhibitor I basically told him to go and get lost. As the exhibitor was in the ring waiting turn in group line up and I was outside the ring watching I said that the exhibitor should pay attention to whats int he ring not whats outside - especailly that my dog was not upsetting anyone, nor was pulling of the collar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 If the vevent was run by the rotty club and they are affiliated with your governing body then yes they would not be allowed as its against the ankc rulings to allow them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 where in ankc rules it states that you cant walk your dog on a prong? can we have a linky pls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 I know at my club (which is ANKC affiliate) agility must be done in a fixed collar, no prong or check collar. I thought it was a ANKC rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 JO: I found amusing that nobody seemed to mind the check chains on most of the dogs, K9: Well there is never any short of ignorance when it come sto dog training.... JO: and how they were being choked when practicing the 'Heel'... poor buggers... in one instance there was this idiot with a Jack Russell, who pulled the leash so hard to get the dog back in position that the poor thing actually made a full circle around the man ON THE AIR... ... and there was this lady with a Rhodesian pup (about 8 months, not too big) that she was pulling the leash so hard that she was wearing a brick glove!!! this pup was also being dragged... :rolleyes: and all this in front of the trainer and the %#^*&*$ did nothing about it! If that was not dog abuse I don't know what it is! K9: Your 100% right, its complete abuse, but it is so common, its just become accepted... Can you imagine how these type of trainers would attempt to deal with the high drive dogs at the Training in drive workshop? & Note that all of those dogs at the workshop were well behaved, with the need for abuse... JO: What upsets me the most was that everybode on the RFD seemed to accept the check chain (or better called choke chain) and the abuse going on, yet some people seemed horrified to see a very happy and playful dog wearing a prong collar. K9: Its complete ignorance & nothing more... JO: I have never had the need to apply any pressure or force on the leash when using a prong collar, in fact I have never applied any correction to the dog either and the dog will correct itself. I'm sure that every owner on these forums that uses a prong collar will have similar experience with their dogs... K9: The imprinting training that I did for Jefe on the first day has taught him where his advantage lays & that has meant corrections are very rarely required... & yes everyone will experience the same thing with my leash walking program... JO: Does anyone has a writen confirmation that the prong collar is not ilegal in NSW? K9: You wont find it, I have searched... But your answer from the RSPCA was as close as you will get... Rules & Laws are rarely written telling you what you can do, more on what you cant do. JO: Does anyone have any information that the prong collar is ilegal on some councils? K9: Its 100% legal throughout the whole of NSW. Some clubs may have by laws that prevent you using them, but the most they can do is refuse you entry to the club. JO: I plan to carry a print out of such information with me all the time, for future events K9: I have had a similar experience at the same place, my answer was call the Police, they will be here in like 4 hours at best, Im sure your call will be prioritised to the bottom, of the list by Mount Druitt Police, & if they do turn up & I am still here, you will look like a fool when they dont know what a prong collar is & then it turns out that they are not illegal. I finished off with "now go away". They did. The only laws I can find state that they cannot be used in Victoria... There is rumour that SA is in the same boat, but I cant find it anywhere. There is no laws against them in NSW, QLD, WA, NT, TAS or NZ. I supply them to people in these states all of the time... I am sorry that these people ruined your day, I am sure that having one of the better behaved dogs there would have irritated some. Best to steer away from these type of people anyway, they will never be able to offer you anything useful with your dog... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 (edited) Double post Edited May 8, 2006 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddog21 Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 Jefe's owners, It was truly unfortunate that you were treated this way. I'm not sure of the ruling as far as the Bill Spilstead complex is concerned, who the woman was that approached you, or who the man was. However, I'm sure the Rotty club will investigate what happened. I did want to clarify that the check chain incidents did not happen during the Fun Day and were at your club. There seems to be such positive from the Fun Day that I'm sure this type of incident won't happen again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokeysue Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 How horrid for you on your fun day. Never seen a prong collar so don't know. But by the sounds of you, you wouldn't put anything on you fella that would hurt him. I know that in agility you must have a flat collar, and obedience a check chain. As Dr Harry says, a check chain will work because the noise from the chain pulling up will do the trick. NOT yanking their head off, this is not the idea.Why were you so upset? Certain places have their own rules and they think this is the be all and MUST be obeyed.So just for peace and to let your dog have a great day, just go with it, and then after, like now, look into it. Really sorry your day was spoiled. Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ojay Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 I had my rottie in the days before halti's and the like, my prong collar was the only thing that kept the both of us safe, him from fights with other dogs and me from injuries. Even a flat collar in the wrong hands can be cruel, stick to your guns Jefe's Mum'n'Dad, do what works for you and your boofhead and what keeps you all happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 How horrid for you on your fun day. Never seen a prong collar so don't know. But by the sounds of you, you wouldn't put anything on you fella that would hurt him. I know that in agility you must have a flat collar, and obedience a check chain. As Dr Harry says, a check chain will work because the noise from the chain pulling up will do the trick. NOT yanking their head off, this is not the idea.Why were you so upset? Certain places have their own rules and they think this is the be all and MUST be obeyed.So just for peace and to let your dog have a great day, just go with it, and then after, like now, look into it. Really sorry your day was spoiled. Sue Why should he just accept it? He did nothing wrong, the prong collar is not illegal in NSW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 Smokeysue many people object to a prong because of the look. It lokos like a very cruel implement to the uninitiated, hence being banned here in victoria. Its a real pity there are many dogs that can benifit from them here that are not allowed. Yes Check chains are horrid when people yank that hard, its causing damage. Really if you wouldnt yank a chain that hard around your own neck then dont do it to the dog, especially small breeds or puppies. Instead they should have approached and asked if the dog and owner was comfortable using a check chain/flat collar to remain under contro if they were not comfotable having it at the fun day, or written it on the newsletter or advertising for the day. Shows that they do not understand the real use for these collars, I have seen them in use adn they really are great for high drive/aggression dogs to keep them under maximum control. A check chain only goes so far with some dogs and they should know that. For those who havnt seen a prong ... no they are not sharpened spikes and they dont dig into the dogs neck. They are not designed to hurt the dog by digging into the skin, and ESPECIALLY not for timid, averagely bouncy dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wednesday Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 Just to clarify - no, the prong collar is not illegal in NSW. HOWEVER, we were on canine council grounds (private property) and although I am unaware of what regulations they may have at this time as I am currently looking into it (for future reference and consideration). I know they have a heap of rules (for insurance purposes mainly). I do not object to their rules if it keeps their insurance costs down, as that keeps our costs down when hiring this location. Being the first 'fun day' that I have organised, there was sure to be problems. This is the only one that has been brought to my attention. It's a pity no one approached me, the organiser, at the time. I would've liked to have seen you stay and see out the day, and resolve this issue to everyone's satisfaction. Barring this unfortunate incident, the rest of the feedback I have received regarding the day has been extremely positive. I have been inundated with emails today praising our efforts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 (edited) . Edited May 8, 2009 by cavNrott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamby Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 Sorry you had to put up with that Jefe's owner. Next time take a spare prong collar and a correction chain with you when out and about with your dog. When people complain ask them to try the correction chain around the top of their arm and then with the prong collar on. I'm sure those who try both of them will be amazed how different the feeling is from the correction chain to the prong collar. The correction chain grabs the arm at one point where as the prong collar puts pressure evenly around the arm. Once trying the correction chain you can imagine what damage it does to a dogs neck when too much pressure is applied like pulling the dog in the other direction. The prong collar is a wonderful piece of training equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 Yes scrunchy and scrap material sales have soared here in Vic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissMonaro Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 I have never seen a prong collar used up here in Qld...so can't comment at all. (have actually never seen one, so thanks for the photo)....I think one could be of benefit to me and one of my girls that has absolutely no tolerance to a check chain at all. They make no difference at all to her. But just wanted to say that at a show on the weekend a comment was made to me on the amount of ppl there with their check chains on the wrong way.... At least at my obedience club they check that collars are on the right way before any of the classes start (even the more advanced groups). They do now allow ppl to use haltis / head collars / flat collars etc now - so then it is personal preference which is good. Flat collars are only allowed for agility for safety reasons. I myself use check chains (or chokers) on most of my dogs...but that is what works for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikesPuppy Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 But just wanted to say that at a show on the weekend a comment was made to me on the amount of ppl there with their check chains on the wrong way.... With regard to showing, I know alot of people who show their dogs with a 'backwards' chain on-I was told it can be useful in keeping the dog's head off the ground, among other things. Also with showing it's about what makes your dog look good, and as, theoretically, you're not using the chain to TRAIN the dog in the show ring-it's there to look pretty, it shouldn't really be a problem if you have the chain on backwards or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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