Food Obsessed Dog

[bloss344]

Bob is totally food obsessed. I use food as his motivation for training and at Obedience but now it's become a problem. His whole focus is on the piece of food I have in my hand. I've been working on 'just because I have food doesn't mean you are going to get it' and it's not working. If I try to teach Bob something new, his ability to learn is diminshed because he's so focused on the treat and he goes through his repoitre of tricks to gain the treat. I know this means he's thinking but he gets frustrated and I get frustrated. :D As far as food goes it doesn't matter if it's a bit of meat or a piece of frozen green bean or a pea. There is no high or low value treats as far as he is concerned.

At Obedience I find that food again is his whole focus and he will break to get the food and go through his repoitre. I am seriously considering going to obedience this weekend without any food at all. Has anyone done this with a food obsessed dog and how difficult was it? We aren't doing serious Obedience at the moment but a Social class which is relaxed and easy going. He's a stressy dog so he's not relaxed and easy going in class and food is sort of keeping him going but I really need to do something.

BTW: I have been trying to phase out treats for over a year and as soon as he realises I'm not giving treats he just refuses to move. Reading over this it sounds like I'm not in a leadership role, but on the whole I am; it's just the food obsession thing I need to overcome.

I can't motivate him with a toy either, although I am trying to get him interested in a tug toy at the moment. He's not overly fussed, just cracks the shits because I won't let him take it and chew it to bits.

[petmezz]

hi a few questions.

have you talked to your instructor, if so what have they advised??

how have you tried to phase out the treets??

how are you giving the treets to the dog ie what hand are the treets in, are you constantly dipping into the treet pouch, size of the treets.

what do you do when the dog dose his "tricks" to get the food??

have you used any punishment on your dog like "UAUA" or with holding treets, any other forms of mild punishment?

At Obedience I find that food again is his whole focus and he will break to get the food and go through his repoitre

can you go into more depth on what happens hear. from the look of it your dog knows to get the food he has to disobay your comand, play around and when back into position he will get the food. is my assumption correct hear?

I have been trying to phase out treats for over a year and as soon as he realises I'm not giving treats he just refuses to move

when are you giving the treets?? is it every time he dose the wright thing, occasionally when he dose the wright thing? will he only do the wright thing if he sees the food first?

sorry about all the questions but they will help me and others on trying to help you.

[PAX]

K9's triangle of temptation would help heaps with your problem.

Susan Garretts food rule outs would be a great help as well.

You could also try having food in a sealed dog proof container, after doing some exercises jackpot him to the food container.

If you do the Triangle of temptation you will be so glad, he will learn to use good behaviour for extended periods of time to gain the food.........like long stays.

This is a good problem to have

[LilBailey]

My jack has the same food obsessive problem, Including the 'Iwon't move if you don't have it' thng.

I got around it by holding my hand 'like' it had food in it and getting him to do something, then the reward in my hand was a pat and a good dog. I ask him to do a few things [even just basic like sit] and pat him after each then take him to another room or place to give him a treat. A handfull of bits or a bicki.

He's pretty good now when I want to teach him something new or if he is in a brat mood I show him the treats and then take him away from them so he knows that he WILL get them once he works. We still have trouble when other people are useing food because he thinks that he should get it too. eg Flyball he gets a little distracted by every one eles feeding when he is running.

The other thing that you could try is clicker training but spend a bit of time teaching him what the clicker is and that the food will only come AFTER the click and it might be a little while after the click. Lenghten amount of time between click and feed slowle. Some one that knows more about clicker training could explane this better.

Edited May 4, 2006 by LilBailey

[NaturallyWild]

All previous mention techniques (triangle of temptation etc) sound like they would all work. I would also try some of Shirley Chongs techniques (in particular doggy zen - not focusing on food, gets food) Shirley Chong. You need to make sure that as soon as a command is learnt that the food is no longer held in the hand (otherwise it becomes a bribe). This doesn't mean that a food reward doesn't come, but that performing for you might make you give a reward. It might be worthwhile taking things back to basics for a short time where rewards consistently happen for commands but they have to happen without food in the hand (or pretentding that there is food - same as bribing).

Clicker training (or using a marker) could definately help as the dog learns that the marker (eg click at the moment he has done what you want) means that food will come (but allows you a bit of time to get that food). There are plenty of websites around.

Tim

[bloss344]

Petmezz,

I'm not sure how to split up quotes so have done my answers in bold.

have you talked to your instructor, if so what have they advised??

how have you tried to phase out the treets??

how are you giving the treets to the dog ie what hand are the treets in, are you constantly dipping into the treet pouch, size of the treets.

what do you do when the dog dose his "tricks" to get the food??

have you used any punishment on your dog like "UAUA" or with holding treets, any other forms of mild punishment?

I've tried not rewarding him after each time. Say I ask him to spin, I try several spins before giving him the treat. After about 3 spins he'll just sit down and do something else like offer me his paw trying to figure out what I want.

At Obedience I tend to dip into the treat pouch often to keep him motivated. Treats are usually in my right hand.

If he gives me behaviour I didn't ask for I don't reward this, and ask for the behaviour I want again. Sometimes I say 'no' and try to calm him down and start again.

can you go into more depth on what happens hear. from the look of it your dog knows to get the food he has to disobay your comand, play around and when back into position he will get the food. is my assumption correct hear?

Yes, he knows that I will lure him into doing what I want. One instructor I spoke to got me to ask for a drop. Bob just sat there looking at me. As soon as I got the treat out and asked for 'drop' he dropped. The instructor said that he felt Bob had an attitude of 'why should I do it now, I'll do it when she has a treat'.

when are you giving the treets?? is it every time he dose the wright thing, occasionally when he dose the wright thing? will he only do the wright thing if he sees the food first?

I don't give a treat everytime he does the right thing but as I said before sometimes he'll do something two or three times and then just give up and offer other behaviour. His focus is the food not what I want him to do.

sorry about all the questions but they will help me and others on trying to help you.

No problem. I appreciate any help I can get. It's hard to explain it in writing I feel like I'd have to write a book to explain it.

Thank you so much

[bloss344]

Thanks PAX, LilBailey and Tim_m99 for your replies.

Looks like I have a bit of reading to do.

Is Susan Garretts food rule outs in a book or website?

I found Shirley Chong's website so will download and read her suggestions.

I did Clicker train Bob when he was a pup, but I found it, well akward for me, click and give food and try to retrieve a ball or whatever all at once just was way above me. And I seemed to be constantly giving treats. I should probably give it another go.

On a positive note I should mention that I can put Bob in a drop put a treat on his paw or a bikkie on the floor and he won't touch it until I give him the ok you can have it command. I can leave the room and even if my OH tells him to have it he won't touch it. Of course the longer I wait the bigger wet drool patch on the carpet. I can do the same with his food bowl and he knows that he needs to make good eye contact with me before I will say ok.

[Lablover]

Bloss344,

In my experience there is a huge difference between bribing and rewarding a dog for requested behaviours/responses.

One of the best focus exercise I personally use, is to place a known pile of retrieving articles (which the dog sees me place). Depending on the dog they are released to retrieve (by vocal cue - OK) as they perform a series of obedience drills. I find this way they are not focused on a retrieving ball (or whatever) on my person (hidden or otherwise which I feel may have the dog thinking they are being tricked - which in my opinion is not fair), and they are not looking up and down trying to work out where the reward is coming from.

With food, well........... LOL, it might be another story. Place it close by and separately. Might be messy!!!!!! Start short!!|!

An excellent recall would be important too!!!

Edited: As per usual my spelling and typing sucks LOL

Edited May 4, 2006 by Lablover

[yogibear]

Yup im with lablover there is a huge difference between food as motivation or bribe and fod as a reward and its where epople come unstuck the dog has to learn that to get the food they need to perform not just nag start simple making somethig you know you will get and go from there

[Nekhbet]

I dont train with treats, I find that the breeds I choose get too obsessed with them... especially the mastiff

The Malinois I train with a tug toy, or even just a jump around with me and a tug with her lead and she's happy.

Sounds like the best thing is to take a few steps backwards in the training. Start from the beginning and work on focus and remaining calm without the use of treats before pushing him to do the harder things. Erratic behaviour can be a sign of stress or just not completely understanding what is asked of him because he has been receiving mixed signals. My Mal did this, she would do what you asked then start pulling other tricks out to get a reward, but instead I gave a correction, and when she returned to the original wanted position I rewarded her with pats. When I told her to break we had a play.

When you ask a command, ask it once and he does it once. Like spin, one spin and then wait for another. Sit is sit until you say the release word and drop or stand the same. Really push that you giving a command is for a single action, not a series of actions and behaviours.

Do you correct at all or is it all reward for good and ignore the bad? Maybe if he starts doing random behaviours then correct and put him back into the position you want. As for frustration about the tug toy ... use it! He wants to shred it, well fabulous. Have some time where you wave it around and get him to jump about for it, chase it a bit. Build up his want for the toy and he will want to grab it. Occasionally let his reward be getting the tug toy and having a little play with it with you. I would stop using the treats, but teach him the 'look' command so when you tell him he looks at your face. Sqeuaky toys are good for this, and heaps of happy praise noises too.

Do the bulk of the hard work in low stress places tha the is used to and then work on just keeping focus when you go out. When you have his attention he will be easier to work and you wont get 'oh he doesnt want to listen' or 'ugh I give up he wont listen any more'. I dont give my dog a choice but its not forced. I keep her doing repetition for half an hour at a time because I want her to learn patience and endurance. Bitework is kept to short bursts, but lower stress exercises I draw out and then we have a massive relax/playtime so she finds it really worth the whole effort.

[NaturallyWild]

I've tried not rewarding him after each time. Say I ask him to spin, I try several spins before giving him the treat. After about 3 spins he'll just sit down and do something else like offer me his paw trying to figure out what I want.

T- You need to progress slowly with expecting more - if he fails then reduce the requirement to win a reward.

At Obedience I tend to dip into the treat pouch often to keep him motivated. Treats are usually in my right hand.

T- keep the treats out of your hand - only dip in there once he has done the right thing.

If he gives me behaviour I didn't ask for I don't reward this, and ask for the behaviour I want again. Sometimes I say 'no' and try to calm him down and start again.

T- this is good

Yes, he knows that I will lure him into doing what I want. One instructor I spoke to got me to ask for a drop. Bob just sat there looking at me. As soon as I got the treat out and asked for 'drop' he dropped. The instructor said that he felt Bob had an attitude of 'why should I do it now, I'll do it when she has a treat'.[/b]

T- this is your worst problem - don't give into him by bribing with a treat (who's training who?? he has you wrapped around his paw doesn't he :D ). You need to create the habit of providing a treat only once the command has been performed. If he becomes stubborn just walk off with him on lead. Then give him a chance again to get it right. The moment he learns the behaviour that you want, then make sure you remove treats that you might have used to lure him to that behaviour.

I don't give a treat everytime he does the right thing but as I said before sometimes he'll do something two or three times and then just give up and offer other behaviour. His focus is the food not what I want him to do.

T- once again progress slowly - offering other behaviours means that he's not sure what your expecting from him and if you change the focus from 'i'll only perform if a see a reward' to 'i want to do what you say because i might get a reward' then i think this will help immensly.

Edited May 4, 2006 by tim_m99

[lab and poodle]

I did Clicker train Bob when he was a pup, but I found it, well akward for me, click and give food and try to retrieve a ball or whatever all at once just was way above me. And I seemed to be constantly giving treats. I should probably give it another go.

I decided for all the reasons that you have stated, to use the conventional system at the beginning . I didn't get the results that I liked. I changed to clicker training, but instead of using a clicker I used a verbal marker, yip. This has worked brillantly. Don't be dogmatic about it though. Sometimes you just don't need to bridge or mark. The other great mistake that I see people do, is to not escalate the level of performance required for a treat. The next one is to reward for bad or poor behaviour. I reckon most beginning trainers could replace themselves with an interval timer , so dog heels for a couple of paces, sniffs on the ground then just on time, whips head up for a treat. Reward for the behaviour not the treat. Behaviour is good attentive heeling for progressively longer and longer but UNPREDICTABLE intervals.

Use jackpots. (as others have suggested). I also found that breakfast where we trained was a pretty good motivator for getting a long sequence of excellent behaviour. Don't be afraid to cut the session short and jackpot if you get something really excellent.

When all else fails, look up the premack principle. You can't compete with enviromental treats so you need to know how to use them. There is so much literature on positive training out there. Just like anything, you need to read it, critically analyse it, and use what works.

[smokeysue]

I really can't help as i only started training Ice about 2 months ago and never took a treat. He was doing ok tho.Noticed the trainer saying to others there that had treats, to give them at certain times, so thought i will try that. Took them one week and gave him one when he did well etc. Next week no treats, still did well. Then noticed the next week when i took treats he was more focused on my pocket or hand than listening to me.And noticed a lot of dogs wont do what they are asked until they are bribed with a promise of a treat. Not for me. Our dogs love to please us and do not need bribery. When young maybe once or twice, but if you get them into a habit of it, then it might be= not doing this mum until you reward me..It's not right. Do not belive in treats unless given in the very right situations. Sue

[sidoney]

I agree with the people who suggested that you are using food as lure/bribe. Seeing or smelling the food becomes part of the cue for the behaviour. Agree with suggestion to get food off the self, did someone say get it off the person?

IMO (and that of more experienced trainers than me) many, many people lure too much. Luring can look as if the dog is doing the behaviour so it gives fast apparent rewards but the dog is mostly learning to follow your hand and its nose, rather than using its brain and working out the actual behaviour.

Triangle of temptation as mentioned would help ... the full protocol of that has a similar effect to Susan Garrett's "rule outs", that is, just because it's there doesn't mean you get it, focus on me and not it, I tell you when/if you can get it.

Edited May 4, 2006 by sidoney

[petmezz]

hi

I've tried not rewarding him after each time. Say I ask him to spin, I try several spins before giving him the treat. After about 3 spins he'll just sit down and do something else like offer me his paw trying to figure out what I want.

try encuraging him with a bridge word. do you know how to creat this bridge word?? if after several attemps over a few days this dosn't work get back to me their are other methods to get the desired results.

At Obedience I tend to dip into the treat pouch often to keep him motivated. Treats are usually in my right hand.

it is good that your treets are in your right hand this means your not luring him all the time. insted of diping into the food pouch to keep him motivated try talking to him in a friendly high tone tell him he is good and what he is doing means the world. it would possably be good to try this on walks first, this way your not disterbing the class, and you can veary the speed of your walk so if he becomes interested in something, say "lets go" hop skip run any thing to get his mind off what ever and on to you as soon as he looks at you give a small treet (half a 5 cent size). and continue your walk, it is important to randomaly do the above so the dog dosn't know he needs to do something to get the reword, it just happens when you suddenly talk to him and change your speed.

If he gives me behaviour I didn't ask for I don't reward this, and ask for the behaviour I want again. Sometimes I say 'no' and try to calm him down and start again.

ok even though you are not giving him a food treet you are still rewording his behaviour. by giving him attention you are rewording him, i wouldn't give any attention to the undesired action i wouldn't look at him, no words no contact possably even get up and walk away act disapointed. wate 2 min and then ask again be redy to give a jack pot when he finaly dose the action, make him think he has won the doggy lottery lots of praise, and food treets given one at a time about 4 treets, and a tugg play. do this and you will see an incress in his attention to you. (hopfully)

Yes, he knows that I will lure him into doing what I want. One instructor I spoke to got me to ask for a drop. Bob just sat there looking at me. As soon as I got the treat out and asked for 'drop' he dropped. The instructor said that he felt Bob had an attitude of 'why should I do it now, I'll do it when she has a treat'.

ok for this you may need to go strate back to stage one however try this first. walk with your dog in heel position, stop and ask for a sit, when he dosn't ignore him, walk again with the dog in heel occasionaly give verbal praise for a realy good position make the praise random, ask for a sit, when he finally dose it give him a reword, praise and do it again. the trick is to stop befor your dog gets bored and gradually incress the time etc.

I don't give a treat everytime he does the right thing but as I said before sometimes he'll do something two or three times and then just give up and offer other behaviour. His focus is the food not what I want him to do.

dose the dog know that what he is doing is what you want??? i would use an extended bridge so the dog knows what he is doing is what you want again start small and work your way up this goes for both the action and the time between the bridge and the actuall reword.

hop this made some sence and helped you a little.

[bloss344]

Well, today we went to Obedience training with no treats. Not a one. I didn't even take me treat bag just put poop bags in my pocket.

As it was such a dreadful morning weatherwise very few people turned up so we combined with another class but our usual two instructors took it as the other instructor had car trouble.

I spoke to one of the instructors and explained that I was not going to use treats so if Bob didn't do anything that was why, but that was ok with me and we'd just come back next week and try, try again.

We started off fine and within a few minutes it was obvious that I had a much better behaved compliant dog. The only problem we had was with 'down' which has been an ongoing problem with him being very uncomfortable with dropping around other dogs, so I just moved and got him to sit instead. Even the instructor commented that we were doing really well considering this was the first week I had tried without treats, the dreadful weather and the different dogs in the class.

He also only got spooked once; by would you believe it a big autumn leaf! that was quite traumatic. Killer leaf....

I am going to reteach drop now and probably use a new word so that perhaps that will help. I know I have to work on the duration of drop rather than the actual going down so that's probably where I'll use the 'jackpot' system.

Actually, Bob has been great today, it's almost like he's had an attitude transplant.

Thank you everyone for all your advice, I've taken it all on board and will work through it to see what works best with this boy.