Loki Has Gone Haywire

[Ruffles]

I'll give you the abridged version of Sunday mornings horrible events.

Took Loki to obedience, half an hour before class started so that he could get rid of his beans.

Class began, tried to attack the one dog he hates (began in the 2nd puppy class we ever had).

Thats fine, we just try and join the class in between the other dogs but oh no, we cant do that.

He is 100% distracted, I cant get him to do anything he is just eyeing of and trying to get to all the other dogs. He pulled me on my ass (grass was slippery as it was raining) so I took him about 6 metres away from the class. Did a few routines to try and get him to focus but it doesnt matter he just wanted to be a monster.

Rather than trying to join the class we just listened to the trainer and followed his instructions on the sideline. I should say.. ATTEMPTED to follow his intructions.

Even removed from the class he would not focus. He wouldnt even come to me when I called him. No food would attract his attention... I spent half the lesson crying.

I persevered, thinking that surely he'd give up being an a$$hole but NO.

The trainer came to talk to me after the class had finished. The conversation went something like this:-

T "There is no point in you being here, clearly you are not the boss nor do you have control of your dog"

Me "This is not the norm, he has never been like this before. I am the boss... For gods sake he is the only dog in the class that can drop on command, he knows his left and right..."

T" What breed is he?"

Me "American Stafford"

T "Oh, well...Its just another name isnt it"

Me " We dont even really care about the training part because I know he can do everything, its just the socialisation that he needs"

T "Well you can come back next week if you really want to but you cant join the class. You have to train away from the rest of us but just make sure you can hear me... Or you can just stop coming for a while"

What do I do!? I am happy to stop for a while and just concentrate on training him at home then perhaps he will forget about the other dogs because he will have more focus or should I keep going to Obedience classes??

He's not trying to attack the other dogs, most of them except for one he just wants to play with.

I have read the thread on neutralising and stuff but it works fine and well when there is one or two dogs around but not when there is 15...

Advice please??

I will also add that at Dog shows he is relatively calm and settles down after about half an hour but at training he just doesnt stop. This has also only just happened, never before has he been such a terror.

[bloss344]

Oh Ruffles, I can totally understand your frustration. I don't have any suggestions for you as Bob was a total pain in the butt on Sunday as well and we spent most of the lesson on the sideline as well so I totally empathise. Bob wasn't aggressive but some of the other dog's were and that put him off. Hopefully some other members will have some good ideas for you.

If the trainer was so negative have you considered a different obedience club where they are more positive. Most of us go for the socialisation side anyway.

[Ruffles]

I am seriously considering another club... I felt very offended by the trainers comments and he said to the rest of the class when I'm sure he thought I couldnt hear "Dont worry, she wont be in your classes anymore"

Its just that we are trying to save to buy a house before our new pup is on the way so paying again/more for classes is sort of not an option

[PAX]

I would suggest you find another club with a more helpful attitude.

I would like to say good for you for trying to do something with and for your dog.

You should read K9's Prey drive control and focus thread and develop drive for a toy. With work you will be able to maintain his focus IMO better under distraction with a toy than with food.

If he is well behaved at shows but not training maybe he is picking up on your anxiety. So find a club that supports your efforts not one that puts you and your dog down.

Makes me sad that some clubs are like this. :rolleyes:

[Gottalovealab]

I don't really understand the trainers attitude!! He/shes there to help you and talk you through it!! not tell you "oh you shouldn't be here" And if you were told apparently you wern't the boss (im not saying that you aren't, just being hypothetical here) She/ he should be teaching you how to be the boss!. And i don't really understand "just stop coming for a while" How is that supposed to help in the development of Loki??

I suggest, as everyone else has, to go to another club. I know from experience that my dog club (when i used to go to it) and its trainers would bend over backwards to help you. So i think you can do better

GOTTA

[glorybea]

hi Ruffles,I have never heard anything so stupid in my life ,WHAT a comment what an instructor --'you shouldn't be there'----WAIT on second thoughts you shouldn't you should be at a better club,I would go to the president and ask for refund of fees etc; and join a more helpful and understanding one ,it is hard enough at times without negitivity good luck in the future Glorybea

[bloss344]

I agree with Glorybea. Ask for a refund and tell them why you are doing so. They are in the business of helping people with difficult dogs. Lets be honest most of us originally go to Obedience because we have some difficulties with our dog, [then we get hooked :rolleyes: ]. If they were perfect and we were perfect most people probably wouldn't bother. What are we supposed to do if they don't conform, just not bother? If I had heard those comments from my trainer, it wouldn't have been Bob that was considered aggressive.

I started Bob at a different club than the one we are at now. After several months of training I was told that he would not progress and he would never be trusted 'off lead'. Guess what? within a month or so of changing clubs we were doing some off lead. Now he's doing a lot of off lead work at obedience.

[Lablover]

Ruffles, I hope you do not mind me having an opinion, bearing in mind my reply is based on information from your post. I have no idea of Loki's history or age and this is over the internet - a suspect way of finding out the full story (which is fine, otherwise we would be reading for ever, LOL). Also I have no idea how to multiple quote, so I will add my reply :LABLOVER..

I'll give you the abridged version of Sunday mornings horrible events.

Took Loki to obedience, half an hour before class started so that he could get rid of his beans.

LABLOVER: When you arrived you let Loki rid his beans. How? Did you allow him to simple run around out of control? Possibly it would have been better for him to concentrate from the first instance. Maybe even tie him up, to try to gain focus on you? ie I am sure he would prefer to be with you than tied up. Think like a dog LOL. Repeat a few times. Or play with another dog!!! That would get him thinking, LOL. Maybe perform a few simple obedience exercises sit, recalls etc as people arrive and praise for good responses.

Class began, tried to attack the one dog he hates (began in the 2nd puppy class we ever had).

Thats fine, we just try and join the class in between the other dogs but oh no, we cant do that.

LABLOVER: Loki should be around safe trusted dogs. If this is not possible keep him away from suspect dogs at all times. How big is the class. Use the lead to keep him from others dogs. Maybe a shorter lead? Try to all times to keep a "comfortable" distance. He needs to learn you will protect him. Confidence in you will result.

I woud suggest a few private lessons with a highly regarded trainer, to give you both confidence. Then return to the club, if you wish, and knock their socks off.

[J...]

Thats horrible Ruffles - I would be seriously offended at the trainers comments too - I think every dog probably has a bad day, just as we do....

To blame it on the breed and tell you you have no control over the dog after one bad class - we have dogs who play up like that in every class! I'll bet they've never been told that they're not welcome!

I would seriously look at another club if you can get to one easily enough! Or take lablovers advice about a private trainer.... I think the confidence things important too!

Good luck - I hope it all goes well

[TangerineDream]

Tango has got to the 'full of beans' and '4 feet off the ground' stage at 7.5 months.....tonight I have to go out to the showground and after he had spent the day in the car and a crate at work I decided to take him down to the river so I could get rid of some of the beans......he had to heel down the path from the car to get to the grassed area (so we'd had a few minutes of focussed obedience there) and then when on the grass I lunged him in circles on a 10' lunge line, interspesed with calling him in to me and rewarding him and then releasing him and lunging him some more. When a dog came around, he greeted them, but when they left, he started running in circles and squealing and focussing on the dog, until I told him to heel and then did a series of very smart (and fast) right about turns to get his focus back on me.. As soon as I had it back, he was rewarded and then released again.....

This sort of thing works for him when he has high energy levels and is in an environment that excites him (eg: shows also atm) - because of this, I've taught him a single word that always gets his attention away from the distraction...and that word is ENOUGH...when that has broken his attention and refocussed it on me, then I do some obedience (food as a reward if needed) and then release again..

works for me, might be worth a try.

[hjd]

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Edited May 3, 2006 by hjd

[Erny]

Ruffles - that your club instructor chose not only to not help you by at least explaining if not demonstrating how to regain the control necessary as well as suggesting you should not return to training at that club only exhibits the lack of knowledge and 'know how' that instructor possesses. To top it off by humiliating you to the class is further evidence of the instructor's lack of capability. IMO, running someone down to others is a way of treading someone down to make oneself look good and blameless. A sign of a small person, IMO.

Take comfort from knowing that. The difference between you and that instructor is that you can not only look him/her in the eyes, but that you are the one entitled to do so.

Edited May 2, 2006 by Erny

[lab and poodle]

He is 100% distracted, I cant get him to do anything he is just eyeing of and trying to get to all the other dogs. He pulled me on my ass (grass was slippery as it was raining) so I took him about 6 metres away from the class. Did a few routines to try and get him to focus but it doesnt matter he just wanted to be a monster.

I feel sorry for you, and my wonderful 12.5 year old Lab (CDX TDX) was a dog dominant full on clown. Given a class full of dogs, and a bit of food around he was impossible.I heard all the guilt trip stuff, about alpha etc. He was a BOC (Back yard obedience champion) but hopeless out there. I made two shows for him. Number one show was me, the food, the TOYS. Be ultra rewarding. Forget whatever the instructor is saying, be really unpredictable, i.e one step right about turn halt drop. The other show after one only "bad boy" in really loud language (if the class looks around at you, you have got it about right) is a quick brisk heel straight into the back of the car. Important that you go away.

Come back in 10 minutes.Same routine. If you get to more than seven of these, please email me, you have broken a record. Also, as others have said, get him settled with older calm dogs who will ignore him mostly.

Now that I am an instructor, I never pull the guilt stuff. Name any situation , there are at lest 10 different ways of solving it. It is an instructors job to do that in a calm constrctive manner. I can teach leadership in 5-10 minutes with a couple of exercises if needed that leave the handler's ego intact.

If you want to get the brain going and the critical faculties moving, have a shot at "Dogs" by the Coppingers. Might make you think about some aspects of our dog training. Distract you from some very inferior dog people that you should never have to put up with.

[Ons]

Onslow is great training at home but totally distracted when we are out because he is not used to training with other dogs, there is no dog training in Moree. I think it is important that Loki is trained therefore with other dogs.

How old is Loki? Is he going through the horrible teenage stage, not listening to mum?

I would suggest that you do change dog training clubs as well. I would have thought if the teacher didn't think that you were in charge of the dog, isn't that her role to help you so that you do become the boss?

One thing I have found useful with Onslow is if we go out anywhere such as a friends place, I keep him on the lead when we arrive, I make him sit and wait and I don't let him off the lead to run around until I am ready. Just that small amount of discipline really makes him think that I'm in charge and he is normally very well behaved after I do that.

[Erny]

I would have thought if the teacher didn't think that you were in charge of the dog, isn't that her role to help you so that you do become the boss?

Further to my earlier post, I returned to add (and I use your quote, here, Onslowsmum, because I thought it appropriate) that some obedience clubs are about teaching you how to teach your dog 'sit', 'drop', 'heel' etc.................. not necessarily about teaching you to deal with (unwanted) dog behaviour. For this reason, it's always worthwhile asking what their instructors 'qualifications' are (ie can they and will they help you deal with these sorts of behaviour issues as well as simply general obedience skills) before you join up. Obedience clubs such as these (instructors without understanding and capabilities to help you deal with behaviour issues) are generally speaking cheaper cost wise (ETA: Actually, sometimes, in the long term, they're not) and for those who don't have problems they're unable to deal with themselves, are perhaps satisfactory. It's when you have problems or when these behaviours surprise you by appearing, that you realise an obedience school with more qualified instructors would have been a better plan.

Your dog's behaviour might have been a 'one off', but if you do chose to return there and the behaviour reappears, I'd recommend you seek an alternative obedience school .... one with instructors who are able and willing to assist you through the problems - if only because your dog's newly developed behaviour is likely to escalate. In otherwords, get help early, rather than later.

ETA: It's always worth re-evaluating our 'perceived' leadership to determine as to whether our dog/s perceive it likewise. Sometimes this takes honesty and a bit of 'self-critique'. If leadership is undoubtedly 'in place', then at least you can rule that one off the list of possible causes for the behaviour. Sometimes dogs will sit, drop etc. ..... even though leadership isn't quite as it should be, and in other areas it can exhibit itself by way of other behaviour issues. Not to suggest you're not the 'leader' .... just something that might be worth considering.

Edited May 2, 2006 by Erny

[BrunoBella]

Ruffles

We've all had classes like that unfortunately. I was forced to repeat intermediate three times with Bella because "GSPs can't behave till they are 1, will always pull on a lead and can not behave off lead". I asked why didn't they tell me that before I wasted my time. I sat on the ground and sobbed (my usual response to stress and insults ). I stopped going to class after we finally completed intermediate (over a year ago).

So many preconceived notions about breeds and no judgement of individual dogs. After searching through all the posts on the forum have decide to train Bella privately with K9.

Good luck resolving this.

[Ruffles]

Thanks guys for all your comments, I'll address each post seperately.

LABLOVER: Getting rid of Loki's beans equates to some Obedience routines and Gaiting. He doesnt get to run around crazy... That would make him so much worse!

I also took him on Rinse's lead which is very short and has a padded handle... probably about 24" for that exact reason of keeping him close. The longer leads we're supposed to train on are A. Slippery when wet, B. Too light and he doesnt respond and C. feel like they will snap and cut my hands to pieces!

He is also just 7 months old so has hit that terrible age haha.

Tangerine: Loki knows ENOUGH, he just decided he'd forgotton what it means... as with every other command on the day

HJD: Bitch on heat is definately a possibility... I had considered that as alot of people down there have no idea about dogs and probably wouldnt know if their bitch was in season or not! They aren't supposed to be down there if they are but as you can see, no one would tell them off for it anyway. I was just going to leave but I thought I should stay to teach him that he cant play up and get his way... perhaps I should have just left

Erny: Thanks for your comments, you're my training Guru hehe.

Sometimes I think that there is not any leadership issues as at home he is an obediant angel (well as much as a horny little boy dog can be ) but as soon as we get down to training he's a terror. On a lead at home he is great, I even walked Rinse and Loki at the same time the other night, entirely on my own. I've never walked two dogs at the same time especially not ones that have a combined weight that is greater than myself. Now if I didnt have control of my Dog I really doubt that I would have been able to pull that off. I am considering going to training on Sunday just to stick it up them but I'm worried he'll be a trouble maker again then I'll look like a nuff.

All in all I really think a new Club is the order of the day... I just dont have alot of money to spend on private training

[Erny]

I also took him on Rinse's lead which is very short and has a padded handle... probably about 24" for that exact reason of keeping him close.

Part of your dog's reward for exhibiting obedience should be being able to sniff; have a bit of a play etc. Honestly, a 24" lead isn't going to suffice. Perhaps a better quality longer lead? I recommend a lead that is 1.5 metres in length.

He is also just 7 months old so has hit that terrible age haha.

Ahhh ..... and of course, at that age where, in his mind, his antics and your reaction and capabilities in controlling them will be a test of where he thinks his boundaries lay.

Loki knows ENOUGH, he just decided he'd forgotton what it means... as with every other command on the day

In otherwords, testing your leadership.

I was just going to leave but I thought I should stay to teach him that he cant play up and get his way... perhaps I should have just left

I would have stayed .... and like you, insisted that he comply. I might have increased my distance to give me the advantage (and maybe, as I worked, decrease the distance a litte).

Sometimes I think that there is not any leadership issues as at home he is an obediant angel (well as much as a horny little boy dog can be ) but as soon as we get down to training he's a terror.

I'd tighten up my 'leadership', assuming there is room to do so. Wouldn't hurt to notice if there's a difference at training.

..... I'm worried he'll be a trouble maker again then I'll look like a nuff.

I know it's hard - but in the absence of another option, it is at least a place where you know your dog needs to learn self-control, even in the presence of the distractions. Use the club for this purpose. Given they're not giving you much/any help anyway, as it sounds, then work your dog in 'sit' 'drop' etc. even at a bit of a distance from the class to begin with. If you're happy with the result, finish on that and go home, whether or not the class has completed. Progressively decrease distance from the class as your dog's reliability in obedience grows. The attitude you received from this instructor would inspire me to be more determined to overcome this hurdle. And at the end, when you're dog's doing great, you can tell that instructor that the improvement in your dog's behaviour is not due to her input, but due to your dedication, persistence and consistency.

[Ruffles]

He does have a long lead but I thought for that class I'd have him on the short one as he's easier to control... Plus the padded handle is also beneficial, generally we do have him on a long lead at training though.

I think there definately is some room to strengthen our Leadership so we'll be working on that.

I will more than likely go on Sunday. I would just hate to be looked at like a quitter... And it would be confirming their impression about his breed which is apparently an issue for them.

He's funny actually with all his pulling and stuff, the second you put the lead on the ground he says "Stuff that, you might leave me if I go anywhere"... He'll excel at off lead work if we get there and I would just LOVE to show all those people that he's not a monster.

[Erny]

Good luck, Ruffles. Remember to work to your dog's capabilities, only gently pushing beyond the 'comfort zone' in small increments. Be happy with small improvements as you progress.

Let us know how you get on.