Barking At The Puppies

[Nike]

BTW - I don't see any comparison between the family pet and a Police dog. They are bred for completely different purposes and their training is reflecting that. I'd like to see you train a family pet using Police dog methods and see what kind of dog you would end up with

I don't think anyone would use such methods for a family pet. I havn't really seen a handler who trains family pets so I don't know. Even the tariners who trained larger dogs as I mentioned were good with their dog for the most part and encouraged positive behaviour. One handler I know told me he doesn't normally give his dogs any treats but instead as soon as the dog does what he is expected to do he offers the dog a game and plays a game with the dog for some time and he said it works much better than a treat. (he was kinda large himself too so I guess it helps him to lose some kilos as well)

Nekhbet

Maybe we can agree that its all a combination of behaviour that's needed to train a dog. My original understanding from what lillysmum said was that she basically ignores the dog for all kinds of negative behaviour and I thought it's not the right way to always do that. Imagine if you have an aggressive, dominant dog that wants to be your leader. I don't think ignoring this dog is going to solve the problem since as soon as you get near him, he would want to tear you apart. I was mainly talking about those types of behaviour where you have a very powerful dog who is aggresive and dominant.

[Nekhbet]

And I am saying that engaging a dog that tries to provoke you (by being dominant) means you are letting him win. Aggressive dogs are not always dominant, and dominant dogs are not always aggressive. If you have a dog thats a complete A$$ then loud behaviour from the handler will keep building his bad behaviour.

I dont know who you have been talking to but ignoring a dog is not going to make it tear you a new one. Never seen it happen before since ignoring is a non-provoking behaviour. Yelling, growling, staring it in the face WILL get you bitten if you dont know what you are doing but turning around and not acknowledging it will not cause it to shred you.

Why do you think that if a dog attacks you and shows unrelenting behaviour the safest thing to do is to quiet down and not thrash or hit back? Because these behaviours flare up the dogs drives and it continues.

I think you have completely missed the point with dominant dogs that have high drives. Aggression and drive are again different things. True aggression from a dog is something that very few trainers can handle, and no service dog that requires to function in public or in group situations should have it. Its called LIABILITY and an animal that just randomly mauls people has very few places in society. Dogs that bite, protect etc do not work on plain viciousness but on defence, prey drive etc which has been nurtured and built over time.

Read up on the meaning of terms and start at basic training levels before throwing yourself in the deep end. Stay away from police/service training at the moment its just out of your league, particularly when you are having trouble understanding dog behaviours. Its a highly specialised form of training and you will get the wrong idea.

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Thanks to Nekhbet for bringing a little more sanity to this thread. Now if only Nike would accept this information in the spirit it is offered: the voice of experience is offered by many to help many and we all have something to contribute. I use only positive reinforcement b/c it's the most effective method I've found to interact with my dogs.

I tried the "pull 'em round the oval with the check-chain" obedience school more than 25 yrs ago. That didn't work well for the canine/human relationship over the long term. My parents tried the "rub their nose in it" methods 40 yrs ago. That didn't work well for the canine/human relationship over the long term. I then tried the "let's reward the desired behaviour, re-direct the natural behaviours that cause ME a problem, and ignore the behaviours I really want to oust" and guess what? Yep, these things work to build a happy, successful and caring relationship between the canine and the human. I've ended up with dogs that have manageable behaviours that are still permitted to express themselves as dogs through appropriate activities, toys, training and exercise.

I've had seven dogs in my life thus far. The first two were childhood dogs that were outdoor dwellers...I loved them dearly and didn't always understand their motivations and behaviours, BUT I knew that kindness won out over a harsh word or worse. My next dog was trained using positive reinforcement but I also used a check chain initially b/c I thought I "had to"...that was drilled into me by the obedience club instructors b/c I suppose that was all they knew at the time. I eventually threw that darned chain into the bin where it belonged and built a much better relationship with the dog in question, with love, kindness and rewards.

Our knowledge of dogs changes all the time...we either move with the times, or get left behind. If we move forward, IMO our dogs can only benefit. OTOH, if we continue to use outdated methods to "train" our dogs, not only do they suffer, but *we* suffer, b/c our dogs do not give us their entire "true self". In order to work with a dog, we need to understand them. They are NOT wolves, contrary to popular belief. They are a domesticated species. They may have some behaviours in common with wild canids, but they are no longer wild themselves. There is a very distinct difference between a wild canid's life and that of a domestic dog.

[Nike]

Ok I'm gonna say something and I don't really want anyone to get the wrong idea. A week ago I joined up on these forumes and posted some message etc... ever since I posted that message the main responses I have had were either "You are lame you gotta be joking" OR "Neither the pet shop nor bark busters or any other trainer you have ever seen are as experienced as we are".

I'm not going to question your experience because I simply don't know. But believe it or not I'm amazed how everyone talks so confidently around here and accuses me of knowing nothing and being wrong etc... Trsut me I already know that I don't know anything about dogs there really is no need to say it but also give me the right as a neutral observer to be curious on how every member around here dismisses all methods out there and believe they are the only ones who know everything. I don't know whether that has been your intention or not but it has surely been the impression I have had from the forume.

What I shared here was not something I just made up and thought was right. It was mainly what I had seen. I wasn't going to mention it but here it is lemme talk about one of the experiences I have had:

A couple of months ago I had the opportunity to go and see an aggressive dog first hand. By then I was doing my secuirty license and the tutor was also training dogs and it was a session on dog handling for secutiry officers. After the session was over the tutor who knew I was interested to see the dogs told me that he had an aggresive dog which he was supposed to deal with. I don't know whether it was one of his dogs or a dog someone had brought for him to deal with. All I knew was that it was a massive german shepherd who barked a lot, pulled on his leash and had tried to bite in the past. Making long story short what this guy did was he went for a run and ran with the dog a couple of laps around a large oval, He then brought the dog back to his backyard put his neck between the doors and pushed it for a while (No the dog didn't choke or anything). This dog didn't make a single noise afterwards. I don't know what else was going to be accomplished with this dog but he seemed to have become pretty obidient. I didn't have to opportunity to see further what happened and if there were further steps etc...

This is just one experience I had and showed that dogs who play up and don't really like to take orders need a firm hand and that was simply what I was saying. I'm not going to become a police dog trainer or anything as such. It was simply an experience or an opinion I was sharing thats all.

[Wazzat Xolo]

What I shared here was not something I just made up and thought was right. It was mainly what I had seen. I wasn't going to mention it but here it is lemme talk about one of the experiences I have had:

Nike

Thanks for sharing, I really can see that just in the few weeks or so you are learning and listening also sharing experiences, this is all good and called networking where all can learn from each other. Trust me NOBODY knows everything about dogs and nobody ever will as they are a constant source of amazement and learning for us humans. There is a great book called The Dogs Mind by Bruce Fogel, I think you would enjoy it, try your library. Glad you are staying on the DOL and learning, it will make you a better owner and a better ambassador for the plight of dogs in general

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Hey, I thought we were trying to help you to learn about what is normal pup behaviour and how to manage that pup. But every suggestion we gave seemed to fall on deaf ears, and now you come back claiming to know better b/c of someone you know that trains security dogs? I thought it was police dogs?

And when a very experienced person here attempted to explain that dog training isn't simple, that aggression and dominance are not necessarily the same thing, you write the above post in response. :rolleyes:

Oh, please! If you're suggesting that this person you know physically harmed this dog, and that this dog is now perfectly well-behaved, and you wish to try something like this with your next dog, then go for your life!

But you will likely ruin the dog - if you are seeking a companion that is likely to have predictable and manageable behaviours...this may not be the most appropriate methodology to follow.

JMHO.

[Nekhbet]

If I saw someone do that to my dog I'd slam HIS head in a door. This is the 'quick' method. Yeah it can work. Is it reliable? NO WAY! I had a trainer punch my dog in the head to make her drop and stay there. It made her stay there but she became very warey of being handled by other people.

This man has done nothing but a band aid for that lesson. This dog has not learned respect, its learned to behave or its gonna get it BAD. It pretty much will live out its life expecting a physical punishment and this is WRONG. He has worn down the dog physically and then dominated it. The dog had not choice but to give up or choke. If you choose to use this as an example of 'training' which its not, then dont get a dog. Cowboys and ranchers used to use this to 'break' in horses. Strap em in and keep them running till they give up and submit in both mental and physical exhaustion. Very barbaric and cruel if you ask me. If you cant handle or train an animal without resorting to these methods THEN YOU SHOULDN'T.

Beleive it or not (and you dont seem to) you dont need harsh methods to handle strong dogs, and I dont mean strong in the physical sense. That animal will be useless for anything but being kept in a secure environment and having owners that need constant 'reminders' for that dog to behave. Pretty sad really. If this guy had tried to put its head in a door without wearing it down it would have freaked, and he would have ended up hurting up or getting bitten.

If a dog will bite, put a muzzle on it. If it requires a harder correction in drive, use a prong or a dominant dog collar. Fixing a dogs like this one takes time, not one lesson. Stay away form this trainer if this is how he works because I classify this as cruel, not training.

This is why I said that you need to learn about the basics before you hit the hardcore areas of training. Without the basics this looks like something that works because the dog quieted down after one go. As a long term solution you would piece together that treating a dog like this for the long term is wrong.

Edited May 1, 2006 by Nekhbet

[Nike]

Thanks for the responses. Maybe the way I wrote it gave an impression that I was trying to imply that I know better. That really wasn't the case. I was merely sharing what I had seen which basically made sense to me when I saw it. Thats all.

I will be around. I don't know whether I will have the chance in the future but I really like to have two or three dogs. Whether I'm gonna have the time and the suitable space to look after them is another story. But hey I can always stick around here whenever I have time and sit back and see what you guys have to say.

Lilly'smum I must also mention that what I had said previously was not intended towards puppies. I myself wouldn't want to get myself physically involved with a being that is weaker than me and harm it. I just don't have the heart for it and I miss the puppy I had as it is. What I mentioned previously was mainly aimed towards bigger adult dogs such as GSD, Rottweiler, Doberman etc when they are grown up.

By the way has anyone here seen the movie "Hills have eyes?" Gotta love that big male GSD huh?

[EISHUND]

and unfortunately at times they need to be afraid in order to understand their owner IS the alpha and not them or else they really want to take over their pack.

You do NOT want your dog to be afraid of you, you want it to RESPECT you.

It's their instinct afterall and unless they are challenged by another member they will eventually become alpha

This is not true. In a pack situation, The pack leader does not bicker or challenge other pack members. He is respected. The lowest ranked pack member doesn't bicker or challenge either. He knows there's no use and accepts it. The middle ranked ones bicker and challenge amongst themselves tussling for a position in the centre rankings. If you challenge your dog, you are only enforcing the fact that HE is the pack leader or an equal. JMHO

Edited May 2, 2006 by Luv my White Shepherd

[Nekhbet]

cruelty and physical violence should never be part of animal training. If a physical challenge was part of animal training then how do people train lions, tigers, elephants? Beat them with sticks or whips?

you're in sydney, so have a look at k9 force website and posts here on the forum. They deal with dominant and aggressive dogs without resorting to the behaviour you saw.

People who have to physically dominate animals are weak themselves. Or dont care about the animals at all.