Barking At The Puppies

[Nike]

In the short period of time I had a puppy I realized that barking very loud at the puppy (in dog kind of voice that is) interrupts their bad behaviour and usually after a few times stops them from doing whatever they were doing and was undesired by the owner.

Has anyone else experienced this?

[Wazzat Xolo]

In the short period of time I had a puppy I realized that barking very loud at the puppy (in dog kind of voice that is) interrupts their bad behaviour and usually after a few times stops them from doing whatever they were doing and was undesired by the owner.

Has anyone else experienced this?

Nike

Have you got a volunteer position yet ?

I hope so

[Nike]

Not yet. There arnt any shelters near where I live and I have to wait until my study load becomes lighter before driving up to other suburbs and work in those shelters

[Wazzat Xolo]

Not yet. There arnt any shelters near where I live and I have to wait until my study load becomes lighter before driving up to other suburbs and work in those shelters

Keep trying then, in response to your question, I have a thesis I have completed on Dog Senses and Intelligence with reason, I am happy to email this if you PM me an email addy. What are you studying at Uni ?

[Rozzie]

Nike which area do you live in?

[Nike]

Around parramatta in sydney

Funny how no one is inetrested to answer the question I asked :p

[Boxer Crazee]

In the short period of time I had a puppy I realized that barking very loud at the puppy (in dog kind of voice that is) interrupts their bad behaviour and usually after a few times stops them from doing whatever they were doing and was undesired by the owner.

Has anyone else experienced this?

I agree with this working, If I have to growl at my dogs (and same when they were pups) a deep grumbly voice always works best!! :p

And vice versa if they are doing something desirable a higher pitched excited voice makes them happy too and they know they've done good!! Even if you feel a bit silly in front of others but it works!! ;)

[Nike]

And vice versa if they are doing something desirable a higher pitched excited voice makes them happy too and they know they've done good!! Even if you feel a bit silly in front of others but it works!! :p

I'm yet to figure out how to make an excited kind of bark.

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

I generally disagree with a growly voice when teaching a dog/pup what you're asking of it...the parent animal often uses such a voice if a pup is in immediate danger and it's done to frighten the pup immediately. That's JMO.

I generally prefer to use a happy voice to praise for desired behaviours and the "ignore" rule for the undesired ones. That is, praise the dog for doing what you ask of it using a light, happy tone (sing-song voice is ideal!), accompanied by a food treat to reinforce the "I'm so happy you did that!" message. For behaviours you wish to eliminate, simply ignoring them *will* make them go away.

Example? One of my dogs, Ruby, is very excitable esp when I get home from work. She likes to jump up, bark like crazy, and generally cause havoc due to excitement. If I 'reward' her by giving her attention, even to scold her, she continues the unwanted behaviours just b/c she has my attention. BUT if I ignore her behaviours, she quickly settles, sits and waits for a pat and hello. A dog learns best when we understand how to communicate our desires and intentions to it - we need to learn to speak dog at least as much as the dog needs to learn how to speak human.

JMHO. :D

BTW - Bark Busters advocate the growly voice, among many techniques, some of which are outdated and were phased out in many training establishments more than 20 years ago. This organisation doesn't seem to have caught up with current training techniques and I doubt it will b/c its founder thinks she knows best. I happen to disagree with her methods. They might "work" but more b/c the dog is now frightened into submission rather than the dog understands what you expect and wants to please you by doing the right things.

Again, JMO.

[Wazzat Xolo]

Around parramatta in sydney

Funny how no one is inetrested to answer the question I asked

Hey Nike ease up I have said I will PM you!! with my thesis, just got back from a call out so sorry its coming.... I have a life as well you know!

[Nike]

Lilly'smum

I understand that you like a rather soft approach towards dogs and specially puppies. I have pointed out before that I'm not experienced as you know but I have seen some really experienced dog trainers and they all shared a common trait. They all were very firm with the dogs. Specially when it comes to the large male dogs. Although you may like a type of ignore kind of approach for negative behaviour I have to disagree that it most probably wont work with the large male dogs who want to become alpha in their pack. They need discipline (did I spell that properly?) and a firm hand in order to take orders and unfortunately at times they need to be afraid in order to understand their owner IS the alpha and not them or else they really want to take over their pack. It's their instinct afterall and unless they are challenged by another member they will eventually become alpha and just ignoring them will probably make things worse. In another threat someone esle mentioned about big dogs that are generally aggresive even towards their own owner and they tell the owner off from the backyard. I guess they are the type of owners that spoiled the dog from puppyhood or had soft kind of approaches towards the dog and the dog just assumed authority with them. I have asked around and bark buster's methods does work. I have asked from few friends who had a dog with some kind of bad behaviour and some of them had to call bark busters and they said BB are fantastic.

desexemall I wasn't really referring to you. I just found that no one else took interest in the actual question. It's all good I was just kidding

[Wazzat Xolo]

[quote name='Nike' date='29th Apr 2006 - 12:11 AM' post=Lilly'smumdesexemall I wasn't really referring to you. I just found that no one else took interest in the actual question. It's all good I was just kidding

Sorry Nike didnt mean to snap, no excuse just a poopy day at work!! Cant get scanner going but Hubby is back tomorrow so promise it will be there.

You can grrrroooowwwwlllllllllll at me if ya like !!

[Nike]

lol no need for growling. But I'm thinking this thesis you have done... Isn't it in some kind of doc or pdf format or you just wrote everything down yourself?

[rugerfly]

so nike, you go from putting a puppy in a box in a unit and wondering why it poos to informing an experienced dog owner on animal behaviour? interesting.

PS your grammar and english have also improved. well done.

[Wazzat Xolo]

lol no need for growling. But I'm thinking this thesis you have done... Isn't it in some kind of doc or pdf format or you just wrote everything down yourself?

Its a Thesis on Disk ( disk god knows where) only have the hard copy, Its theme is Can Dogs Reason,Do they Think and are they Intelligent? Along the lines of great books "Do Dogs Think?" and a "Dogs Mind", although mine is not so great I am proud of it!!

Its coming!!

No luck in the volunteer field ? You could always offer web/computer help for shelters.

[Rubylace]

<I have asked from few friends who had a dog with some kind of bad behaviour and some of them had to call bark busters and they said BB are fantastic.>

Hmmm I think we will have to agree to disagree on that subject LOL!

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

so nike, you go from putting a puppy in a box in a unit and wondering why it poos to informing an experienced dog owner on animal behaviour? interesting.

PS your grammar and english have also improved. well done.

It's funny, I was thinking the same thing.

Nike - positive reinforcement is training that most obedience schools, puppy schools, shelters, rescues, and vet clinics use and recommend. It's todays training that respects the dog and handler. There is no need to bully a baby puppy into submission. Bark Busters and some other organisations still see the canine/human relationship as one of master (human) bullying the dog into doing what the human wants: while this will get the dog's attention, and while this will scare the crap out of the dog, it won't be building a positive relationship. It's a positive relationship that any humane dog handler is working for, not one where the dog is scared sh*tless of its owner.

You talk about large male dogs...yet you also appear to have no real dog handling experience. I have to wonder how you know so much about large male dogs and how ppl have to "discipline" a dog into doing what they demand. There really is a better way IMO.

It is not a "soft" approach at all, rather it seeks to provide the dog with what a dog needs to work with a human in a positive and motivated way: encouragement and praise for 'wanted' behaviours, disregarding 'unwanted' behaviours. A dog wants attention. If it does something you do not want it to do, and you raise your voice at it, guess what? It's got the attention it seeks. Do you think that stops the dog from doing the unwanted behaviour? Of course not! You are merely reinforcing the behaviour that you DON'T want from the dog...and is it any wonder that so many ppl have "undisciplined" dogs when they are resorting to methods that don't work?

BB use and recommend such methods as throwing heavy (vehicle towing) chains on the ground to frighten a dog when it's doing something you don't want such as nuisance barking. Is that an appropriate response? No, I don't think it is. That sort of response is the reason that so many dogs end up in shelters, frightened beyond belief. Ppl mistakenly think they can frighten their dog into the behaviour they desire. It simply doesn't work in the way the handler is hoping and makes the dog absolutely miserable. This is certainly NOT demonstrating yourself as the Alpha in the pack or asserting dominance - this is telling the dog that you are slightly crazy and will do scary things without warning. The only lesson the dog learns is, "That person is crazy...I better stay out of his/her way."

Positive reinforcement is the right way to train a dog IMO. Some ppl disagree. I've seen the results of both (over the long term) and positive reinforcement wins hands-down every time. You end up with a happy and well-adjusted dog that not only knows the rules, it knows that you will be kind but firm, fair and reasonable, and the dog will work *with* you willingly, every single day of its life. :D

[Nike]

A dog wants attention. If it does something you do not want it to do, and you raise your voice at it, guess what? It's got the attention it seeks. Do you think that stops the dog from doing the unwanted behaviour? Of course not! You are merely reinforcing the behaviour that you DON'T want from the dog...and is it any wonder that so many ppl have "undisciplined" dogs when they are resorting to methods that don't work?

Ok I agree I may not have first hand experience and what I was talking about was mainly what I learned from dog handlers who mainly trained larger dogs for special purposes such as drug detection and other police duties.

In my opinion it doesnt work that way. The dog and specially larger aggresive types of dogs don't "always" seek attention. If a large dog barks at the owner trying to say "hey I'm alpha" and the owner ignores the dog I guess the dog has indeed accomplished his purpose. He doesn't care whether you pay attention to him or not he wants to be your leader and unless if you prove to him that you are more powerful he simply won't give up. It's the wolf's instinct. The large male wolf wants to be the leader unless if he is challenged by another member of his pack. You say if you bark at the dog you have paid him attention but that too doesn't make sense. If that was the case why do you think 2 large male dogs that see eachother get angry and start barking loudly at eachother trying to start a fight? If simply by ignoring eachother they could become alpha then what was the need for the loud barking? There is a difference in the pitch of the bark and it doesn't just mean the dog has accomplished his purpose if you bark at him

You can laugh at it all you want but I have had the opportunity to speak to experienced dog handlers who train dogs for a living and they all were very firm with their dogs and it worked very well with the dog. That is not to say that the dog was simply their slave. They did encourage the positive behaviour in the dog and they were generally behaving well with their dogs but as soon as the dog started playing up on them they didn't tolerate it at all and it really made sense...

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

And here I was thinking you were discussing a pet puppy. How silly of me. I should have known you were talking about professional dog handlers from Police dog squads.

BTW - I don't see any comparison between the family pet and a Police dog. They are bred for completely different purposes and their training is reflecting that. I'd like to see you train a family pet using Police dog methods and see what kind of dog you would end up with.

Perhaps if you wish to discuss dog training in a particular context, it would be worth mentioning that from the outset?

BTW - the ppl I've known that raised working dog pups (law enforcement in particular) were just as kind (yet firm) with the baby pup as are ppl that have adopted a family pet. It's only when they get into their actual training that things "toughen up" if you want to look at it like that. But law enforcement places unique requirements on canines that a pet environment never does.

Military dog handlers used to take their charges home from work every shift and many of these handlers adopted the "failed" dogs and their "own" dogs upon the dog's retirement. These blokes are the biggest sooks with their dogs when NOT working with the dog. The dogs are smart enough to know what is "work" and what is "recreation" and respond accordingly.

Go figure! :D

[Nekhbet]

Nike

I own a giant breed male dog. For his behaviour I ignore him or deprive him of something like a treat or his dinner. If I constantly growled and engaged in confrontational behaviour I would have one of 2 things:

A nervous dog that would become scared of raised voices

or

A dog that would one day go 'No i'm not taking this anymore' and have a go.

He has confronted me a couple of times, stood his groud, stared me in the face and wanted to bark at me because I wanted him to do something he didnt want to. All I did was stand up tall, put my hands on my hips, open my eyes wide and stare down at him. He took a step foreward and so did I. He backed off and I didnt need to make a noise.

If you look at wolves and other pack animals, very rarely do things escalate to physical fights like our domestic dogs seem to do more often. Its a rare time two wolves tear each other to pieces. Barking and throwing hissy fits at each other does not neccesarily mean a dominance challenge between males, there are some bitches out there that would put a larger male to shame. Canine behaviour is not just about dominance, there are things like defence, anxiety, fear etc that are contributing factors to how a dog relates to others.

I have a shutzhund dog and my bordeaux will try it too. I too have spoken to police/sport dog trainers and most of them advocate positive methods over constantly battling with your dog. If you have to always get into an argument with your dog then you are not partners, you are two half assed members of a pack in a constant power struggle with each other. If the dog cant see you as a leader then you cant trust your working dog. My Malinois will be dominant over me, pull on the lead etc but I dont need to constantly growl at her. Yes if she REALLY refuses to out a tug then I will raise my voice but if I did this constantly she would be a cowering mess. She paws at me for attention and nuzzles me to try and make me look at her but I ignore her. According to you I should turn around and shout at her ... why? I ignored my Bordeaux pawing at me and he stops and goes to find something else to do. Should I growl at him too? Why? They are both dominant dogs showing dominant behaviour but I'm winning by ignoring them. Behaviours like this, or her whining in the car, sitting at the back door etc I ignore and they stop. Why should I lower myself to a challenger level in their eyes when I can be the top dog and not let their behaviour affect me.

Maybe you should learn a little more about working dogs before you come here and start dismissing other peoples methods. Not every dog and every breed can be trained in the same way, and if you really want to learn about training dogs you need to at least listen to what other people do and get from it what you can. The pups have to be raised positively and with motivation to build up their drives. If you constantly berate a working pup you end up with a nervous and unreliable dog. Positivity and confidence play a big part in service dogs.

Take a look at the police force dogs. If a dog is to be retrained to a new handler how do you think they teach it to accept food from this new person? Beg the dog, hand feed or growl at it? Unless you want some sort of plastic surgery then nooooo way. Give the dog food. Dont wanna eat? Take it away after a few minutes. Continue in the unengaging behaviour until the dog eats and comes to accept that you are now its leader. No need for power struggles, a good leader shows the dog he is there to protect it, love it, provide for it. The dog will then return that with service and loyalty.

Theres the quick way and theres the right way to train. I have seen people table train their protection/sport dogs and I dont like it. Its fast training but it makes for an unstable personality. Various people have their different methods, you cant just say 'oh but thats not going to work on a dog like this'. Maybe some parts of Lillysmum will work, some parts may not be suitable for one individual dog. You need to change your methods to suit the personality of the animal otherwise you're just a hack.

Edited April 30, 2006 by Nekhbet