Ndtf Newsflash

[Erny]

Hi Erny. Yep i'm planing to ferther my studdies with them as i'm enjoying it so much, i all redy have info on a few of the specialised areas. (might need to moove down their though, the travel is killing me)

:D Maybe I could organise 'board' for you?

[fido666]

Hi Rom

the NDTF seams more informative, and more strict and structured then delta. i have had the privalege to be tought by several delta trained people who work in a verry profecional setting. i persionaly had questions as to the knowlage they where teaching me, and found that whill not entierly correct it was correct in the context but they couldn't brorden it to other areas.

i'm friends with some one who is 3/4 the way through Delta, and she is totaly different to the above. we bounce off idears with each other, and she was amased that their are timed exams with NDTF.

if you want to pm me your email i will send it to her so you can hear what she has to say.

Also pm poodlefan, she has some feelings on delta trained people.

Oi watch it! I did the Delta Intensive last year and a few of the modules but then had to defer. What's your issue with "Delta trained people"? I'm trying to decide whether to re-enrol or do the NDTF course so be nice :D .

Cheers,

Corine

[Erny]

Oi watch it! I did the Delta Intensive last year and a few of the modules but then had to defer. What's your issue with "Delta trained people"? I'm trying to decide whether to re-enrol or do the NDTF course so be nice .

Hi Corine :D

I'm NDTF trained and let me say that I have met with one or two "Delta trained" people. Have found them to be very nice. It's not the course that makes the person, it's the course that makes the trainer. (Well - to a big extent anyway.) This is not to suggest that the Delta Course doesn't produce good trainers. From what I can gather from those who I've spoken to about it, the only thing I have to say on the Delta Course is that it is a bit narrower in its training principals course coverage compared to NDTF.

I wouldn't mind doing the Delta Course myself, though - even though I've done NDTF. Even though it would go over training principles of which I'm already familiar, I can only assume (by the length of the course) that it might go over the selective principals a bit more? (Unless NDTF is a bit more intensive, perhaps?) I have had some tell me this is not the case though, and unfortunately the cost of the course is a bit prohibitive for me to take the risk for curiousity sake.

I do note that some time ago a "Delta trained" person here on DOL accused NDTF trained people of being unhelpful snobs, though. Don't know why. I know I'm only one of a great number of NDTF trained trainers who love meeting, speaking to and helping others and exchanging/discussing different ideas and philosophies on dog training.

Edited May 25, 2006 by Erny

[fido666]

Hi Corine :D

I'm NDTF trained and let me say that I have met with one or two "Delta trained" people. Have found them to be very nice. It's not the course that makes the person, it's the course that makes the trainer. (Well - to a big extent anyway.) This is not to suggest that the Delta Course doesn't produce good trainers. From what I can gather from those who I've spoken to about it, the only thing I have to say on the Delta Course is that it is a bit narrower in its training principals course coverage compared to NDTF.

I wouldn't mind doing the Delta Course myself, though - even though I've done NDTF. Even though it would go over training principles of which I'm already familiar, I can only assume (by the length of the course) that it might go over the selective principals a bit more? (Unless NDTF is a bit more intensive, perhaps?) I have had some tell me this is not the case though, and unfortunately the cost of the course is a bit prohibitive for me to take the risk for curiousity sake.

I do note that some time ago a "Delta trained" person here on DOL accused NDTF trained people of being unhelpful snobs, though. Don't know why. I know I'm only one of a great number of NDTF trained trainers who love meeting, speaking to and helping others and exchanging/discussing different ideas and philosophies on dog training.

Hi ya Erny

Well one reason for the length of the course is that it is a Cert IV course rather than the Cert III offered by NDTF. I'm not saying that makes it better, just longer. Delta also put some focus into the business side of dog training too (as in running one). The course is very focused on positive reinforcement though, I guess that could be viewed as narrow but I still enjoyed it.

Perhaps you can answer me a question here - How is the student assessed during the course? If you're interested in how Delta does it it's all spelled out on the Delta website.

Cheers,

Corine

[Rom]

if you want to pm me your email i will send it to her so you can hear what she has to say.

Also pm poodlefan, she has some feelings on delta trained people.

Hang on...I need to go and learn how to pm. :D

[Erny]

Perhaps you can answer me a question here - How is the student assessed during the course?

There are "Assessment Tasks" along the way in each of the topics. Some "Assessment Tasks" are timed, some are made by submissions and some are oral presentations. Other assessments are made/given in relation to the hands-on practical training of dogs.

My turn for a question.

Does Delta offer "electives". For example, if I didn't wish to do the (eg) business component, could I elect to not do it? And does that bring the cost of the course down?

[fido666]

Perhaps you can answer me a question here - How is the student assessed during the course?

There are "Assessment Tasks" along the way in each of the topics. Some "Assessment Tasks" are timed, some are made by submissions and some are oral presentations. Other assessments are made/given in relation to the hands-on practical training of dogs.

My turn for a question.

Does Delta offer "electives". For example, if I didn't wish to do the (eg) business component, could I elect to not do it? And does that bring the cost of the course down?

No electives Erny, the core modules are all must dos. I do belive they offer RPL credits which might bring the price down. Delta run other programs like Pet Patrners but these are not elective credits towards this course. There's a lot of info about the course on the Delta Website, perhaps you should contact the office to ask about RPL though. Being a Cert IV I guess there are set requirements they need to meet so have to make a lot of the modules "core". I found the intensive really worthwhile; it would be great if you could do just that but then people wanting to do the whole course would miss out on places.

Cheers,

Corine

[Dogs rock]

Well one reason for the length of the course is that it is a Cert IV course rather than the Cert III offered by NDTF. I'm not saying that makes it better, just longer.

Forgive me if I stuff this up - first post!

I thinks its important to be aware that, from what I understand, the Delta course is a Cert IV in Companion Animal Services - not actually in dog training. The NDTF course is officially the Certificate III in Dog Behaviour and Training. Yes, the Delta course is dog training focussed, but the certificate at the end is not actually in dog training. That's not to say that it isn't a good course, just something worth knowing.

[petmezz]

Oi watch it! I did the Delta Intensive last year and a few of the modules but then had to defer. What's your issue with "Delta trained people"? I'm trying to decide whether to re-enrol or do the NDTF course so be nice .

Cheers,

Corine

Hi

i have no issue with Delta trained people, most are informative, nice people that love dogs. i do question SOME things sead by some Delta trained people as my studdies both private and with NDTF differ to what they where trying to teach me, the same happens with NDTF to just not as oftern.

i think it is the.... "put 2 trainers into a room to decide on the one best method to train a dog, 2 hours later they come out with 10 best methods" situation.

Corine do your reserch on both courses and then decide, i reserched both for about 2 months before deciding.

Good luck

[petmezz]

Hi Erny. Yep i'm planing to ferther my studdies with them as i'm enjoying it so much, i all redy have info on a few of the specialised areas. (might need to moove down their though, the travel is killing me)

Maybe I could organise 'board' for you?

i'll see if i pass this one first, before i take you up on that offer...... do you have room for 2 possably 3 sibes?

[Jeff Jones]

the NDTF course covers more areas of dog training methods and equipment

where as Delta are more pig headed

[Herr Rottweiler]

I don't think Delta are pig headed I do find a majority of their upper management to behave in an elitist manner which filters down to their graduates. Not that this is always the case as several NDTF students have done the Delta course before and unless they told me I would never have known.

[Staff'n'Toller]

the NDTF course covers more areas of dog training methods and equipment

The Delta course does cover the four quadrants of dog training, they just choose not to use a couple of them for various reasons.

It is a Cert IV in Behavioural Dog Training, but because it also satifies the ANTA requirements for a Cert IV in Animal Care and Management, due to it's health and husbandry modules, it is given the title of Cert IV in Companion Animal Services.

In general you'll find that NDTF graduates and Delta CGC graduates can discuss this type of topic until the cows come home, but individually, we do what we do, or study the Certificated course we choose because we believe in and follow the principles of that organisation and their preferred training methods.

It is no secret that they are different in many many ways and my advice to Fido666 is to go and observe an ADT centre in action because that's where you'll be doing most of your nominated training hours to fulfill the requirements- no-one can tell you if you're going to like one or the other better- only you will know that.

For the others that have asked, if you live in Vic, you want to be a Dog Trainer but you haven't handled any other dogs than your own, then the NDTF course will certainly give you tonnes of hands-on experience because you need to do kennel work as well as class experience.

I'm doing the Delta course now, but I've worked and studied for years under ex- NDTF trained trainers, and for me, and for the training principles I follow now, doing the NDTF course would be covering old ground and not heading in a direction I'd like to take....but as I stated before- it's a personal thing. I know of someone who has completed the NDTF course but refuses offers to work for ADT until they bin their correction chains and open their minds to the possibilities of using other training equipment- both physical equipment and primary reinforcers. Again, it's not a dig, it's just personal preference.

For me, I'm enjoying the heavy emphasis on reading dogs stress signals both in classes and when interacting with their environment because when you're stressed you can't think, and when you can't think, you can't learn. Class sizes and individual dogs become an important issue that is not addressed in many training schools, private or otherwise. I'm also enjoying the fact that because we seem to have an abundance of workplace trainers as our tutors, we are covering alot on 'Learner Outcomes' which is also an important issue that is not thought about in many training schools. It could well be the reason why we see frustration in our human (adult) students, and may account for the fluctuations in member retention over longer periods of time.

Cheers,

Mel.

[Erny]

In general you'll find that NDTF graduates and Delta CGC graduates can discuss this type of topic until the cows come home, but individually, we do what we do, or study the Certificated course we choose because we believe in and follow the principles of that organisation and their preferred training methods.

Except NDTF does not have "preferred training methods". They teach all: explain, demonstrate and practice in the principals of each and it is up to the graduate to chose which method they wish to adopt/practice in (such as the person you know and refer to).

I guess that would be a strict difference with Delta - it does express preferences and therefore uses only those preferred methods.

It's only a difference in the courses, so not a problem .... unless a graduate comes across a dog for which the unpracticed methods would be more suited.

Edited May 26, 2006 by Erny

[Staff'n'Toller]

In general you'll find that NDTF graduates and Delta CGC graduates can discuss this type of topic until the cows come home, but individually, we do what we do, or study the Certificated course we choose because we believe in and follow the principles of that organisation and their preferred training methods.

Except NDTF does not have "preferred training methods". They teach all: explain, demonstrate and practice in the principals of each and it is up to the graduate to chose which method they wish to adopt/practice in (such as the person you know and refer to).

NDTF might not, but ADT certainly have preferred training methods, and since that's where all the NDTF trainers are sent to complete their practical experience, I think that's certainly a consideration.

They teach all: explain, demonstrate and practice in the principals of each

Well I hope they have established a good reason for the use of demonstrating positive punishment on dogs just for the benefit of their students.

Mel.

Edited May 26, 2006 by Staff'n'Toller

[fido666]

Thanks for the feedback Staff'N'Toller, lots to think about here.

Hi ya Erny :D, didn't think you'd still be awake after today, it was a long one ! I have one very tired puppy tonight but I think he behaved himself well today, no-one got eaten anyway . I have no idea how I didn't get completely lost on the way home, it was so dark!

Cheers,

Corine

[Erny]

NDTF might not, but ADT certainly have preferred training methods, and since that's where all the NDTF trainers are sent to complete their practical experience .....

No - not all the students attend ADT. There are other schools around/available where the students achieve their course requirements. As I understand it, I believe placement is elected by the students on a placement availability basis.

Well I hope they have established a good reason for the use of demonstrating positive punishment.

All the principals are explained and demonstrated, as are the correct application and the appropriateness of them.

Edited May 26, 2006 by Erny

[Erny]

Hi ya Erny :D, didn't think you'd still be awake after today, it was a long one !

Hi Corine - it was good to see you!

Yes - I know I will berating myself tomorrow for depriving myself of the early night I promised. Oh well ...... at least caffeine is available.

Edited May 26, 2006 by Erny

[Herr Rottweiler]

In general you'll find that NDTF graduates and Delta CGC graduates can discuss this type of topic until the cows come home, but individually, we do what we do, or study the Certificated course we choose because we believe in and follow the principles of that organisation and their preferred training methods.

Except NDTF does not have "preferred training methods". They teach all: explain, demonstrate and practice in the principals of each and it is up to the graduate to chose which method they wish to adopt/practice in (such as the person you know and refer to).

I guess that would be a strict difference with Delta - it does express preferences and therefore uses only those preferred methods.

It's only a difference in the courses, so not a problem .... unless a graduate comes across a dog for which the unpracticed methods would be more suited.

Nicely said Erny. I'm following this thread with interest

[Staff'n'Toller]

Not sure there's much left to say HR.