Brittany Spaniels The Potential

[sandyl]

Wow!! Congrats!

That's awesome. If I were you I'd do most activities if i had the time. Atm I've only got time to do agility and obedience with two seperate dogs. I can start showing if i want but i realy dont know where i can fit that in. Kira sounds great. Do you have any pictures of her? Maybe weaving or so? Thanks

You've got a v-e-r-y promising girl there. Most of all, have fun!!

Sandra

[baileykira]

Thanks sandra yes i am trying with her ,her breeder did say she thought the dog would have potential but time constraints blah blah meant she couldnt give her what she needed,hence why i now have her.i do really need to take some photos of her .its hard as my partner can only make it every so often on a Sunday to the classes.i'm going to a field trials event on saturday in Cheltenham victoria so maybe i will get some feathers/bird as suggested on wgaa website.

JUST WANTED TO KNOW IF ANY OF YOU HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE OF SOMETHINE CALLED FORCE FETCHING SEEMS TO COME UP A LOT IN THOSE LINKS YOU GUYS PROVIDED.is it something to do with ensuring the dog has a soft mouth with the quarry?

[sidoney]

It's most likely about forcing a dog to fetch ... some gundog trainers can be somewhat archaic, depending on force/aversives. Are you in Victoria? Talk to lablover - she has been training retrieving in drive, no force. Can you get to any of the K9 force workshops in Vic? I would recommend them. I just went to the SAR and drive training one in NSW and it was excellent - applicable to any dogsport really.

[FHRP]

Force fetching is still fairly uncommon in Australia, although growing somewhat in popularity in the trialing circles. It seems to be pretty much a standard part of training a retriever in the USA. My basic understanding is that it is proofing a dog to fetch under pressure. The pressure applied to the dog is usually an ear or toe pinch and the pressure is released when the dog does the right thing. The dog lears how to stop the pressure, so if ever it questons a retrieve the handler can then again apply the pressure and the dog has no confusion about what is expected!? It's not how I ever want to train my dogs, and I don't believe it is necessary in training a retriever. I have seen dogs go through the process both on video and 'in the flesh' and although I don't think it's barbaric (I have seen worse things done at m local club with choke chains and the like ), it's not what I want to do to my dog.

[Working_Setters]

FF is a way to structure retrieving. If you rely on dog's desire, what do you do if dog refuses retrieve?

If you say sit and dog remains standing there will be a negative consequence. If you say come and dog doesn't respond, there will be a negative consequence, why should retrieve be any different? FF gives you the structure to apply a negative consequence if a dog disobeys a fetch command.

All that said, I’d not recommend you undertake a FF program at this stage, get some more experience first. As has been said, many in Oz don’t FF, though I understand it’s becoming more common amongst those that compete in Retrieving trials, probably as understanding of the technique becomes more widespread in this country.

[FHRP]

If you say sit and dog remains standing there will be a negative consequence. If you say come and dog doesn't respond, there will be a negative consequence, why should retrieve be any different? FF gives you the structure to apply a negative consequence if a dog disobeys a fetch command.

The difference I don't like with FF as opposed to your other examples is in FF training a negative 'consequence' happens before the dogs does anything! Either correctly or incorrectly. You can apply a negatve if your dog chooses not to fetch without evergoing through the FF method. I don't train my dog to sit by first applying pressure and then removing it when they sit.. and I don't do it in retrieving.

Edited April 26, 2006 by FHR

[Working_Setters]

The difference I don't like with FF as opposed to your other examples is in FF training a negative 'consequence' happens before the dogs does anything! Either correctly or incorrectly.

I understand what you're saying, but to be honest the consequence at the beginning of FF isn't anything more than mild discomfort. I don't enjoy causing my dogs discomfort, but to me as an ethical hunter retrieval of shot game is paramount, I believe FF makes that retrieval more likely and consistent. In addition most in Oz do use some form of "force hold", ie if you drop that bird/bumper before I say "give" there will be a negative consequence, and many times I feel that consequence is far worse than is applied during the FF program. FF breaks a complex action down into tiny steps, so that the pressure applied at each step in the process is minimal.

You can apply a negatve if your dog chooses not to fetch without evergoing through the FF method.

How? If you have multiple dogs you can send another (jealousy), if you can reach the bird/bumper yourself you can make the dog watch as you perform the retrieve yourself. However if you don’t FF and you’re in a hunting situation with a shot bird that is in danger of being lost in river current, what negative can you apply that will "make" the dog perform that retrieve if it decides it would rather not?

[pawsaroundoz]

Workin setters - ...and a few years back a Mr Don Urquhart ran some super Vizlas in field trials in Vic. I loved watching those dogs work!

FHR - quote "The difference I don't like with FF as opposed to your other examples is in FF training a negative 'consequence' happens before the dogs does anything! Either correctly or incorrectly. You can apply a negatve if your dog chooses not to fetch without evergoing through the FF method. I don't train my dog to sit by first applying pressure and then removing it when they sit.. and I don't do it in retrieving."

Well said FHR, I would also add to anyone thinking of using the FF methods, know your dog very well indeed - I think it would be very easy to just about destroy a keen but soft young Lab (or any other gundog breed) to apply FF methods at either the wrong time or for a super keen dog in the wrong way....could easily ruin them or at least set the trainer back a long long way. I see it as a sort of a quick or short cut when I have always believed in taking all my training very very slowly and sort of 2 steps forward - 1 step back, so as I am as sure as I can be that my dogs understand an exersize. By the way are they Whippets you have too?

annie and her boyz

[Working_Setters]

Workin setters - ...and a few years back a Mr Don Urquhart ran some super Vizlas in field trials in Vic. I loved watching those dogs work!

I've been wracking my brain trying to remember the name of the chap whose Vizsla I saw run in the Brittany Club pheasant trial, the best I could manage was Don somebody, so I bet it's the same fellow. I agree, his Vizsla that I saw in the field was excellent.

Would have to disagree with you about FF being a short cut, but nothing wrong with a health difference of opinion, helps make this such an interesting place.

[sidoney]

Don Urquhart has moved to Tassie now. He is the partner of another well known Vizsla breeder. While she breeds for show mainly (and her dogs have also done very very well in obedience, agility, field trials, etc. etc. etc.) Don bred mainly for the field. Although they had lines in common - but different breeding goals - and so had different prefixes.

[FHRP]

You can apply a negatve if your dog chooses not to fetch without evergoing through the FF method.

How? If you have multiple dogs you can send another (jealousy), if you can reach the bird/bumper yourself you can make the dog watch as you perform the retrieve yourself. However if you don’t FF and you’re in a hunting situation with a shot bird that is in danger of being lost in river current, what negative can you apply that will "make" the dog perform that retrieve if it decides it would rather not

Now you are changing what you said :D OK, perhaps qualifying it. I never said the negative consequence will "make" your dog retrieve. Just as I don't use a physical negative consequence that "makes" my dog to sit if he refuses to sit. If I choose to use a negative if my dog doesn't sit when told, he still has to 'choose' to do the sit! Does that make sense? If I were to use a heeling stick (which I don't) and at a halt he didn't sit, he may get a smack on the bum. The dog can still choose ot to sit. I have seen FFed dogs given an ear pinch in the field and still refuse to retrieve... maybe the training wasn't thorough enough. But, maybe having to FF means your proofing by other methods hasn't been thorough enough either.

Don Urquart has had some great trialing and hunting V's. His partner is the breeder of my young boy and I was told the litter sister they kept was for Don to use as a hunting dog...

By the way are they Whippets you have too?

Herbie is a whippet :cool: and a fantastic water retriever in hot weather Chloe is a foster greyhound pup.

Edited April 26, 2006 by FHR

[baileykira]

Seems i opened a can of worms with that last question so how does ff relate to them forcing the dog to work a line,i will NOT be trying any of those methods with Kira,Brittanys do not respond well to heavy handed training and i think she may have had some negative experience in her past as she shrinks back at some commands if too assertive,there are some great vizla photos on the brittany retreival trials that you sent me the link for FHR.No i havent heard of the K9 training sessions i would go if there was something of interest for either of my dogs.

i found kira's dad has been involved in field work for quite some time so must be genetic inheritance/instinct.

Do the trialling events normally have beginners sections as it seems the one in cheltenham does, not that i intend to enter but at least she can have a go and i can buy her a dummy bird there.

I made her one as per instructions on an american website i found and injected it with the scent stuff i got at a gun shop,she loves retreiving it and thankfully its one that floats regardless of whether its been punctured or not though that remains to be seen :cool:

[sidoney]

Contact Lablover from this forum. She does high level retrieving trials. She has found that K9 has helped her tremendously with her dogs. It is all training in drive, no force. Also, SARDA dogs air scent very like HPR dogs do when searching for game, and have to work for extended periods. I strongly believe that the SAR weekend would give you lots of assistance in training your dog. As it happens a spot has become available, see this forum. I'm not intending to advertise really, it's just that I have HPR dogs myself and have seen how much I've learned by following up these related areas.

Edited April 27, 2006 by sidoney

[FHRP]

Do the trialling events normally have beginners sections as it seems the one in cheltenham does, not that i intend to enter but at least she can have a go and i can buy her a dummy bird there.

Is it a Utility Field trial event or a Retrieving trial? I'm not sure about Field trials, but some retrieving trials in Victoria offer a Beginners stake. Unfortauntely they are not (or very rarely) offered in NSW :cool:

[Working_Setters]

Seems i opened a can of worms with that last question so how does ff relate to them forcing the dog to work a line,i will NOT be trying any of those methods with Kira

It's obviously up to you, but I'd not have thought dismissing out of hand a technique used by many of the worlds very best gundog trainers before you even have a clue what's involved was much of a way to embark on a voyage of discovery.

Brittanys do not respond well to heavy handed training

I disagree with this assessment. Some Brits are hard headed SOBs that need a firm hand to guide/control them in my experience. Like all breeds, the Brittany breed is composed of individuals, each with their own personalities and temperaments, that will benefit from different training approaches.

If you're suggesting that properly taught FF is a "heavy handed" technique, then I disagree with you on this point also.

You can apply a negatve if your dog chooses not to fetch without evergoing through the FF method.

FHR could you elaborate on what you would do to apply said negative under these circumstances please?

For those that oppose FF, when you say fetch, is it a request or a command? If the later, how do you enforce it? Thanks

Edited April 27, 2006 by Working_Setters

[pawsaroundoz]

Thanks Sidoney, I often wonder what has happened to those folk or dogs one has seen, especially when they and their dogs have left an impression, then you don't hear from then in a while! Maybe we need a "where are they now" of the dog world!!

Workin Setters - Not really an arguement, perhaps it's just that I have had mostly soft dogs, and strange as it may seem, I actually prefer training softies.

BaileyKira - I am sure the Brit Club in Victoria have all sorts of training assistance available. Mnay years ago when I had the pleasure of sharing my life with a young Brit I drove over from SA to attend a training week-end up Laanecoorie way - half field work - camp - water/retrieving work next day!

There are lots of training events through the year for retrieving, put together by a number of the clubs....I think the flatcoat retriever club has something on very soon, give that club a call for more info. I wish you all the best with your girl anyway! I shall look out for you both when I get back to Victoria late this year!

FHR - My Clancy Whippet loves to er 'help' Carlin retrieve dummy's too, he's quite keen on water retrieves up here, but then the water is warm, not sure how keen he will be when we head South again!

Annie and her boyz

[FHRP]

You can apply a negatve if your dog chooses not to fetch without evergoing through the FF method.

FHR could you elaborate on what you would do to apply said negative under these circumstances please?

What I would do? I'd think why my dog didn't obey the command, did he see the mark, has he grasped the concept (blind, double etc.) and what training I might need to do, or weather he's really 'trying it on'. Only if I thought he fully understood what was meant and was wilfully disobeying would I apply a negative. However, my guy I do retrieving with is not a confident dog and I avoid using negatives when it comes to retrieving.. if I can help it. I have done some 'force holding' with him being made to hold and heel around etc. and it's done nothing for his enthusiasm

However, that doesn't answer the question. You can apply the same negatives you might choose to apply if the dog disobeys other obedience commands - a smack, a clip behind the ears etc. I admit that I clipped my older boy behind the ear when he didn't budge on a fetch command in obedience training once. Yes, he then went and fetched.

Working_Setters I have far less knowledge of field work than yourself, and I have the luxury of 'working' my dog on dead game. I don't even pretend to be that good a trainer!! Our first season we finished only one trial :p As I've already said , I don't think FF is barbaric, or even necessarily 'heavy handed' when done correctly. To think it's the only way you can train a reliable retriever is the same as dimissing it without knowing what it's about IMO. I have seen top trialing dogs that have had it done, I have seen plenty top trialers that haven't. I have seen the process. I'm not going into this unknowledgable and I'll never say never.... but I just don't see it as a training method I want to go through.

FHR - My Clancy Whippet loves to er 'help' Carlin retrieve dummy's too, he's quite keen on water retrieves up here, but then the water is warm, not sure how keen he will be when we head South again!

And they swim like they run don't they! Fast and furious Now, I think Rogan would much prefer the water temperature in the NT to trial in than Canberra and surrounds ;)

[Working_Setters]

FHR - Thanks for your reply. Figuring out why a dog didn't go when you said fetch is sound training in my book, no amount of negative is going to help if a dog has missed the mark.

I wasn't suggesting you hadn't given FF informed consideration, having seen it live and on video makes you far more informed than many in this country on the subject. Likewise I'd never suggest that it's the only way to train retrieving, I just get frustrated by the "oooooh I'd never do that to my dog" reactions from people that are clueless as to what it is they are condemning. I'm not claiming to be a good trainer either, but I have had the opportunity to travel and see many different people training their dogs in many different ways, I think an open and curious mind is a good thing to bring to dog training (and much of life in general).

Your comment about not retrieving live game is, IMO, very perceptive. If I weren't a hunter, then "fetch" would have an entirely different meaning for me. In theory I guess every command I give my dogs needs to be obeyed, but in reality there are only two that I'm willing to apply a significant physical negative to ensure they are obeyed, sit and fetch. Sit can save a dog's life, I have had one dog hit by a car when it chased a hare onto the road and no desire to see that repeated, so IMO the sit whistle always needs to be obeyed, no matter what. Fetch is of similar importance as loosing shot and possibly wounded game is completely unacceptable to me, if it were only about fetching tennis balls, then I'd not care if the dog missed a few.

Best of luck for the trial this weekend, let us know how you get on.

[baileykira]

FOR YOUR INFORMATION I DIDNT SAY I FOUND FF BARBARIC I SAID I WOULD NOT BE TRYING IT WITH KIRA SIMPLY BECAUSE SHE DOES NOT RESPOND TO HEAVY HANDED TRAINING TECHNIQUES/CORRECTION METHODS IE CHECK CHAINS A CLIP ROUND THE EAR IS ENOUGH TO SEND HER HOWLING TO THE BACK ROOM COWERING AND WETTING THE FLOOR I SUSPECT THERE MAY HAVE BEEN A LITTLE HEAVY HANDED SCLODING AT HER OLD HOME. :p ;) I AM NOT THE TYPE OF PERSON WHO DOES NOT FULLY EDUCATE THEMSELVES AS REGARDS A TOPIC BEFORE DISMISSING IT I HAVE NOW SEEN FF IN ACTION FROM ANOTHER GUNDOG OWNER AND THROUGH DVDS ON THE SUBJECT I PICKED UP AT THE GUNSTORE AS WELL AS READING VARIOUS ARTICLES FOR AND AGAINST FF ,SPOKE TO MY MOTHER AND UNCLE WHO BOTH BREED AND TRAIN VARIOUS GUNDOG BREEDS AND THEY SAID IT DEPENDS UPON THE NATURE OF THE DOG TWO OF MY UNCLES MALE DOGS ARE FF TRAINED AND ARE CHAMPIONS IN THE FIELD,AND I DECIDED ITS NOT FOR THIS PARTICULAR DOG AT THIS TIME I DONT THINK IT IS BENEFICIAL TO GET A HEAD OF STEAM UP AND SLAM PEOPLE JUST BECAUSE THEY DO NOT AGREE WITH YOU AND FOR YOUR INFORMATION I HAVE BEEN TRAINING AND WORKING WITH DOGS FROM A YOUNG AGE I HAVE ATTENDED TRIALS IN THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPE THE ONLY REASON I POSTED ON THIS SITE AND HAVE ASKED THE VARIOUS QUESTIONS I HAVE ASKED IS DUE TO THE FACT I HAVE ONLY BEEN IN AUSTRALIA FOR SIX YEARS AND I HAVE BEEN OUT OF THE GUNDOG/TRIALING ECT ''SCENE" SINCE I ARRIVED SO DONT BE SO QUICK TO PASS JUDGEMENT .KIRA RESPONDS BETTER WHEN WORKING AS A TEAM WITH ME HAVING THE FINAL SAY ON THE MATTER TO HAND,THAT SAID SHE IS AN EAGER TO PLEASE TYPE OF DOG ALWAYS GIVING EYE CONTACT WHEN TRAINING AND RESPONDS WELL TO PRAISE,IF ANYTHING I WOULD SAY I USE WHATS KNOWN AS POSITIVE REWARD TRAINING USING MY KNOWLEDGE AS A DOG BEHAVIOURIST I LOOK TO WHAT MAY BE CAUSING THE DOG TO NOT OBEY A COMMAND AND 90% OF THE TIME THE FAULT LIES WITH THE OWNERS INABILITY TO RESPOND TO THE DOGS CUES SHE IS REWARDED WITH VERBAL PRAISE WHICH KEEPS HER INTEREST DURING TRAINING I WONT LIE BY SAYING SHE CAN BE LITTLE FOOD ORIENTATED BUT THIS IS NOT ALLOWED AT MY OBEDIENCE/AGILITY GROUP SO SHE LOOKS FORWARD TO THE LIVER TREAT WHEN HER OBEDIENCE SESSION IS OVER AND TAKES THE GIVING OF THAT LIVER TREAT TO BE HER RELEASE COMMAND IE THE CLASS IS OVER.

MOST ARTICLES ON THIS BREED AND BREEDERS WOULD DISAGREE WITH YOU STRONGLY ON THE NATURE OF BRITTANYS AS REGARDS TRAINING METHODS THAT INVOLVE TOO MUCH CORRECTION AS THEY DO NOT RESPOND WELL TO IT,PERHAPS YOUR EXPERIENCE OF THESE BRITTANYS YOU CLAIM TO BE SOBS ARE ENTIRE ADOLESCENT MALES WHICH I AGREE CAN REQUIRE SOME DIRECTION .

I BELIEVE THAT SATURDAYS TRIALING EVENT IS TO BE A RETREIVAL TRIAL I DONT REALLY HAVE ALL THE DETAILS JUST GOING TO SUPPORT MY FRIEND WHO BREEDS AND TRAINS BORDER COLLIES.

KIRA IS ALSO FROM FRENCH LINEAGE AND THEREFORE OF THAT SIZING NOT THE LONG LEGGED BRITTANYS COMING OUT OF AMERICA BRED TO KEEP UP WITH HORSES MAYBE THIS IS THE VARIETY OF BRITTANYS TO WHICH YOU REFER.

I ALWAYS KEEP AN OPEN MIND ON ANY SUBJECT AS MY ULTIMATE GOAL IS T FIND THAT WHICH DOES RIGHT BY ANY DOG ,I ALWAYS LOOK AT EVERY ANIMAL INCLUDING HUMANS AS AN INDIVIDUAL WITH INDIVIDUAL MATURATION AND DEVELOPMENTAL GOALS AND AS I SAID ITS NOT FOR THIS DOG BUT IN THE FUTURE WHO KNOWS MAYBE FF WILL BE AN OPTION WITH ANOTHER DOG.I AGREE THAT SIT AND FETCH ARE NON NEGOTIABLE COMMANDS BUT I WOULD ALSO ADD STAY TO THAT LIST FOR SIMILAR REASONS TO THE SIT AS YOU MENTIONED

SOME PEOPLE NEED TO GET OF THEIR HIGH HORSE AND QUIT LORDING IT UP OVER OTHERS COS THEY BELIEVE THEMSELVES TO BE A WORLD AUTHORITY

[FHRP]

baileykira, I believe the term barbaric was one I used, and I in no way meant to imply it was your reaction to the method. None of my comments on FF were aimed at you, but rather a discussion that may have been better placed in a new thread, with working_setters.

Edited April 28, 2006 by FHR