Dogs Dinner Before Your Dinner

[shoemonster]

I know that thw whole dominance/pack theory says that the dogs should eat after the humans

What is the dogs are eating at 5.30 and the humans after 7

What would the theory be on this? Is it ok as it is not immediate, or should they still be eating after the humans

Eg, i get home at about 5.15pm

I feed the cats first after being home for 5 or so minutes and then I feed the dogs

They sit quietly watching but not under my feet while I put their food in the bowl and they wait to be told ok before they can eat their meal

Is this an ok situation or is it still asking for dominance issues?

cheers

Bel

[KismetKat]

I too would be interested in this - I am in a similar bind to shoemonster.

Due to night toileting issues I swapped my dogs main meal to the morning - so I always make sure I have gulped down a weetbix before I feed her. While she is eating I feed the cat his brekky in the laundrey.

BUT she also has a 'snack' meal of a small amount of complete dry food in the evening. She gets this, like showmonster's boy, about 5.30pm (after a trip to the park). This time I feed the cat first and then here.

Our family meal is around 7-7.30.

For any meal she IS made to perform - a drop or a sit/stay or a TOT.

I of course eat during the day and she is never given stuff from table/plate and thus never hovers or begs for food.

Is this all enough to keep dominance established?

[TangerineDream]

Tango usually gets fed before me, but at broadly varied times (6.30pm to 11pm atm) - I find that he's quieter when I'm eating if he's already eaten and he will happily lie down at my feet and wait til the meal is finished....if he's not been fed he circles like a shark which drives me nuts...I know that you are 'meant' to eat first and feed dog later to reconfirm the pack order, but my hectic life just can't quite come to terms with that one, but this method works for me....and Tango gets to practice his long downs.....

[shoemonster]

Good to hear others are in similar situations!

And wondering the same thing

Also you put the dogs away when you eat or are they in the room with you?

Edited April 20, 2006 by shoemonster

[KismetKat]

shoey - mine is in the room with us, but she never bludges for food (having never been fed from the table I assume) and doens't do any 'shark circling". So her presence is not an issue. Wjile we have dinner she is generally ensconced on the couch snooozing.

[TangerineDream]

Tango lies beside my chair on the floor, my dogs in the past have either been there or on their daybeds in the same room. I've done a lot of downstay teaching at mealtimes starting with pups on lead and graduating up to off lead stays.

[shoemonster]

Ours sit and watch but they sit back a bit, so not directly under us

This is something I will work on though, while they are still both young

Eddie's gone a bit backwards since we got Molly, it's a competition now

They are both 9 months, but they learn very quickly which is good when i know what i want to teach lol

[Pippi]

Things such as 'eating before the dog', 'not letting the dog sleep on your bed', 'always making the dog wait to go in/out the doorways after you' etc etc, IMO opinion are only a problem if you already have leadership issues with your dog. So if you are trying to establish yourself as aleader of the pack then the above are just some of the strategies you may put in place to help with that. If you don't have a problem with leadership then don't stress if you eat after the dog. Personally I have never found it possible or practical to have the dogs wait while I eat. I usually eat too late. I have heard though that simply spitting in their food before giving it to them achieves the same result, theory being that you as leader have already eaten from that bowl.

[shoemonster]

I have heard though that simply spitting in their food before giving it to them achieves the same result, theory being that you as leader have already eaten from that bowl.

I see the point but it sounds so gross

Makes sense about it only beig a major concern if you already have problems though

My 2 are very submissive

[Erny]

Although I place more store in the importance of "NILIF" and the owner initiating contact than anything else, when I am consulted due to problems my view is to 'wipe the slate clean' so as to leave no doubt in the dog's mind. Hence, I will include 'eating before the dog' in the regime requested of the owners.

I don't believe it is necessarily sufficient to simply have your dinner and then at some stage (after having chatted, cleared the table, washed the dishes etc. etc.) feed the dog. If there is a message to send from eating before the dog, will the dog perceive it as we intend if the time gap is large enough?

So, to keep it simple and easy, I say it doesn't really matter when the humans eat compared to that of the dog. Merely prepare the dog's meal in its bowl in full view of the dog, on a bench where the dog can't reach it. Have a human biscuit next to the bowl. Take the biscuit, turn around and eat the biscuit in view of the dog. Then take the dog bowl and give the dog its meal.

In doing this, it doesn't matter if you decide to go out for dinner, want dinner later/earlier etc. And if the dog IS receiving the message we're desiring to send it through doing this, it isn't likely it will be thinking "hello, hello .... I saw that - you were eating a HUMAN biscuit!".

The biscuit can be something like a watercrest, if you're saving your appetite for dinner. Or (and the kiddies love this one!) a chocolate biscuit, if that's your inclination. (Good excuse for anyone, I say. )

Edited April 20, 2006 by Erny

[KismetKat]

what a wonderfully simple answer to the 'issue' erny. Thanks again for your clear insight.

[Erny]

KK

[shoemonster]

Ooooh erny I like that idea! Though I may put on weight doing it!!!

Makes good sense though, thanks for that

[Erny]

Ooooh erny I like that idea! Though I may put on weight doing it!!!

Not if you take your dog out for an extra walk each day ....

[shoemonster]

yeah true!

thanks Erny, it had been bugging me for a while now and I think I understand it a little better now

[yogibear]

if its not convenient then dont do it simple

[shoemonster]

Yogi, my concern was that it seemed to be an important part of lots of training and I wondered how much difference it could make

Being that I've only been around dogs for a grand total of 7 months I don't understand how they work yet!!!!

[tramissa]

Personally, Minnie eats before me, after me, at the same time as me etc.

She eats in her crate - door shut. She also gets some quiet time in the crate after dinner - the amount of time changes depending on how I feel

She sleeps on my bed.

I haven't ever seen any leadership issues with her at all - and I got her when she was 8 1/2.

Edited to add - when I get my new puppy however, I will be enforcing 'leadership' and it will sleep in a crate etc, not on the bed, until after we have a good pack relationship sorted out and puppy knows I am boss.

Edited April 20, 2006 by tramissa

[Erny]

Personally, Minnie eats before me, after me, at the same time as me etc. She eats in her crate - door shut. She also gets some quiet time in the crate after dinner - the amount of time changes depending on how I feel She sleeps on my bed. I haven't ever seen any leadership issues with her at all - and I got her when she was 8 1/2.

You're right - with some dogs it doesn't seem to make any difference. They seem happy enough with any small element of assertiveness you exhibit to respect you as leader.

IMO, the most important things is, as I think I mentioned in my earlier posts, the "NILIF" (Nothing In Life Is Free) and owner initiating contact regimes and, of course, obedience training. BUT in the case of problems developing (and the big problem here is owners not recognising the early signs), or when problems are full blown (in which case it is more difficult and requires very strong, clear and consistant signals for the dog to oberserve), I would recommend these other anomolies (ie not on couch, bed, eating first etc.) be practiced. Once harmony between dog/human rules once more and is stable, it may be possible to relax some of these anomolies - usually one at a time to see WHAT makes a difference, if any. But I always suggest that re-introduction of these practices be on the owner's terms, not the dogs. (Eg. Teach the dog it may ONLY get up on the couch when it receives a command. Likewise, it must get down on a command.)

I recently saw an owner with a dog who had become aggressive to its owners. I was surprised the dog should do this, because the owners were doing everything right - the dog was highly obedience trained, the owners were not push overs (but they were fair). The dog wasn't allowed on couches etc. There were only a couple of small things I could adjust, one of which was not having the dog sleep on the mat which was right next to the owner's bed, nor right next to the couch where the owner sat. (Respecting the owner's personal 'space'.)

Although I believe (and still do) there is more to this dog's aggression (signs for which had not been apparent in its early days and which had only developed in the last number of months before I was consulted), according to the owners the dog's aggression subsided considerably when this measure was put into place.

I know the arguments about whether these small things do or don't make a difference, but the way I see it, where there is a behaviour problem, what harm to work it in - at least for the time being until the behaviour problem/s is sorted.

Just my view.

Edited April 20, 2006 by Erny

[shoemonster]

I think it's always good to know as much as you can about these things and then decide how far to take it and how it relates to your personal situation

Thanks for everyone's advice