Just Curious!

[yogibear]

i cant see why competing cant be enhancing ones relationship why can a trial dog be a family memeber first my dogs go everywhere with us whther it be shopping camping tc and they are always on their best behaviour.

I love it when people say training a trial dog would be so easy but its not for me well if all this pet obedience results in a trial dog then you should be able to just enter a trial and show how easy it is lol.

I will continue to train my dogs with trialling in mind and i will continue to love my dogs for who they are it doesnt matter if they become obedience champion but its nice to have a goal in mind.

[Guest Tess32]

I really wanted to trial but I seem to have lost all motivation at the moment. I can see the challenge in getting such precise obedience going, and it certainly is lovely to see the team move as one. But having taken a break from school, I seem to be just having a really good time enjoying my dog without worrying about his terribly crooked sits.

I think obedience clubs/schools, if small, need to decide what they are. A lot of the pet dog clubs are just so basic that for someone like me, who doesn't desire to get to UD but wants more than Fido, SIT - they offer nothing. And trial based clubs can be all about the focus on the trial with no practical skills included.

Bigger clubs can find a balance, but for many it's just turned out to be a muddle where many people end up disatisfied.

[sidoney]

It's not just obedience training where clubs have a difficult time finding a mix that satisfies.

[Guest ~*Pixie*~]

I think the saying "you can't please all of the people all of the time" is really appropriate here.

[Kavik]

The thing that I am working towards is focus! Yes for the obedience ring as it looks great (eye contact and bouncy energetic heeling) - but it is also useful in real life (when there is another dog or a rabbit or something equally fun!)

The precision of the exercises I find to be the difficult part of obedience if you aim for trialling. The difficult balance of needing motivation and excitement but at the same time control and precision especially for heeling. I am still learning how to do this!

I agree with those that say find a club that meets your needs! It is the same as discussions with methods. Find a club which teaches with methods you like and has the goals/aims that you do.

[baileyb]

Don't see that it needs to be one OR the other.

I compete AND live with and enjoy my dogs. I find the high level training improves our relationship, as yb mentioned. They are also great to simply be with, well mannered and so on.

Couldn't agree with you more sidoney.......by the sounds of it our dogs ARE BOTH!!!

I compete in both obedience and agilty but my true love is agility.

Maybe all those out there disillusioned by the obedience world should give agility a go!!

[yogibear]

Just wantd to clarify a couple of things one all well trained dogs should be able to gain a cd when we are talking about trial work and beingdiffficult i mean to gain high scores consistently and gain high in trials OC etc

A dog that isnt capable of cd is ususally a dog with issues that would affect them even in passing a pet certificate such as the cgc.

Also i think its insulting to say that trial work is just a pattern and is easy it takes a lot away from those who work damn hard week in week out nd are struggiling to get that elusive pass its insulting Its like saying anyone can win a a ballroom dancing competition even if they just took a terms worth of lessons

I'll ;et the peple who worked really hard all year to gain entry into top dog that it wasnt really a big deal anyone can do it and actually their dogs probabaly arent tha well trained and that they arent ideal dog owners because their focus is on competition lol

[helen]

I agree with Sidoney on this.

Firstly, not every club does block heeling.

The exercises used in the trial ring are very useful in every day life. At the dog beach if there is a dog on lead or one I don't want Bella to approach I simply get her to do an off lead heel until we pass the dog. Stays are invaluable in every day life, as are recalls. My dog will do these excercises in a 'non stylised way'. Retrieving and jumping are fun for the dog.

I used to think obedience was a bit boring myself I must admit, I think it is the general attitude that goes around and rubs off. I stopped after Bella's first novice pass. I picked up again a couple of years later. Went to a training seminar run by Gina O'Keefe from WA, she is a good one to show you how much fun it can actually be.

[yogibear]

YEs helen

Obedience can be so much fun if you have the right attitude we have a ball when we train

[yogibear]

hey nat dont let crooked sits stop you trialling it will nly cost you a few points i'll have a look at what your doing saturday if you like

yb

[poodlefan]

Obedience trialling is the equivalent of competitive dressage. It tests the dog's responsiveness to the handler, and the handler's ability to work the dog precisely. The formality of the arrangement as much allows each dog/handler combination to be tested to the same pattern as to compete directly against each other. Sure, some people want to win but a lot of people set a personal challenge of just meeting the standard to qualify.

There are people who want to go beyond getting their dog to walk on a loose lead, come when its called and not jump on the kids. Two months of decent training can set those basics- the challenge is then to consolidate and build on them which is a step most dog owners don't take. Higher level exercises are often introduced to keep people (and dogs) interested in training. I'm at the same dog club as FHR and we are very much 'control' focussed in the early classes - too much for my taste as you end up having to undo bad habits for people who do aspire to do dog sports.

All dog sports are about going beyond normal 'control' training to build a stronger relationship between the dog and owner as a team - to see what is possible between a dog and handler. Our dog club is completely volunteer run. Most of the people who do the managing, work and teaching do dog sports. They are catered for as much as to provide the motivation for instructors to keep coming as anything else. Let me tell you, constant teaching of "pet" basics is not highly motivating to a lot of instructors - they want the chance to take dogs and handlers beyound that. So what's provided tries to cater for everyone.

I'm personally into going beyond 'pet' basics to get that special relationship. Besides, once you conquer you nerves and let go of your ego, you can have a hell of a lot of fun. There's nothing like a sports dog to keep you humble and to give you a sense of wonder.

Personally, if you've never tried obedience, don't knock it. Its pretty challenging.

What I notice is that people at my club who aren't interested in trialling, generally aren't interested in achieving the same level of precision and responsiveness in handling their dog. That's fine by me but personally I think you are better training for precise response from the outset rather than settling for basic compliance.

Its often dog sports people who've pushed the boundaries to learn more more about why their dogs do what they do, and behave and respond as they do. Its horses for courses but I'd say don't knock any dog sport unless you've tried it.

BTW - obedience work had its foundations in training gundogs to be handled safely in the field - heeling on the left hand side occurs because the handler carried his/her gun on the right.

Edited April 9, 2006 by poodlefan

[snobbybobby]

A dog that isnt capable of cd is ususally a dog with issues that would affect them even in passing a pet certificate such as the cgc.

I think you'll find that the behaviours are slightly different between the Novice ring and the CGC test.

The CGC test, from memory, requires a dog to walk on a loose lead (not heeling) be relaxed around noisy strangers and stay away from the handler, out of sight, without any fuss, to name just a few.

Novice obed. on the other hand requires precision heeling, etc..

The handler is also taken into account with footwork etc..

It's a bit unfair to say that a dog *has issues* if it can't pass Novice and gain a CD title. Surely there's more to it than that?. Teamwork being one of them.

[yogibear]

well said poodle fan thats exactly how i would describe obedience competition Its the same with agility the work that the top handlers put into their dogs is amazing and inspiring and certainly well beyound the basics taught in pet classes

Edited April 10, 2006 by yogibear

[yogibear]

Looking at this test id say connor would pass it pretty much now easily without even trianing for it yet i would not consider him ready to trial in obedience

cgc test requirements

Test 1: Accepting a friendly stranger

This test demonstrates that the dog will allow a friendly stranger to approach it and speak to the handler in a natural, everyday situation. The evaluator walks up to the dog and handler and greets the handler in a friendly manner, ignoring the dog. The evaluator and handler shake hands and exchange pleasantries. The dog must show no sign of resentment or shyness, and must not break position or try to go to the evaluator.

Test 2: Sitting politely for petting

This test demonstrates that the dog will allow a friendly stranger to touch it while it is out with its handler. With the dog sitting at the handler's side, to begin the exercise, the evaluator pets the dog on the head and body. The handler may talk to his or her dog throughout the exercise. The dog may stand in place as it is petted. The dog must not show shyness or resentment.

Test 3: Appearance and grooming

This practical test demonstrates that the dog will welcome being groomed and examined and will permit someone, such as a veterinarian, groomer or friend of the owner, to do so. It also demonstrates the owner's care, concern and sense of responsibility. The evaluator inspects the dog to determine if it is clean and groomed. The dog must appear to be in healthy condition (i.e., proper weight, clean, healthy and alert). The handler should supply the comb or brush commonly used on the dog. The evaluator then softly combs or brushes the dog, and in a natural manner, lightly examines the ears and gently picks up each front foot. It is not necessary for the dog to hold a specific position during the examination, and the handler may talk to the dog, praise it and give encouragement throughout.

Test 4: Out for a walk (walking on a loose lead)

This test demonstrates that the handler is in control of the dog. The dog may be on either side of the handler. The dog's position should leave no doubt that the dog is attentive to the handler and is responding to the handler's movements and changes of direction. The dog need not be perfectly aligned with the handler and need not sit when the handler stops. The evaluator may use a pre-plotted course or may direct the handler/dog team by issuing instructions or commands. In either case, there should be a right turn, left turn, and an about turn with at least one stop in between and another at the end. The handler may talk to the dog along the way, praise the dog, or give commands in a normal tone of voice. The handler may sit the dog at the halts if desired.

Test 5: Walking through a crowd

This test demonstrates that the dog can move about politely in pedestrian traffic and is under control in public places. The dog and handler walk around and pass close to several people (at least three). The dog may show some interest in the strangers but should continue to walk with the handler, without evidence of over-exuberance, shyness or resentment. The handler may talk to the dog and encourage or praise the dog throughout the test. The dog should not jump on people in the crowd or strain on the leash.

Test 6: Sit and down on command and Staying in place

This test demonstrates that the dog has training, will respond to the handler's commands to sit and down and will remain in the place commanded by the handler (sit or down position, whichever the handler prefers). The dog must do sit AND down on command, then the owner chooses the position for leaving the dog in the stay. Prior to this test, the dog's leash is replaced with a line 20 feet long. The handler may take a reasonable amount of time and use more than one command to get the dog to sit and then down. The evaluator must determine if the dog has responded to the handler's commands. The handler may not force the dog into position but may touch the dog to offer gentle guidance. When instructed by the evaluator, the handler tells the dog to stay and walks forward the length of the line, turns and returns to the dog at a natural pace. The dog must remain in the place in which it was left (it may change position) until the evaluator instructs the handler to release the dog. The dog may be released from the front or the side.

Test 7: Coming when called

This test demonstrates that the dog will come when called by the handler. The handler will walk 10 feet from the dog, turn to face the dog, and call the dog. The handler may use encouragement to get the dog to come. Handlers may choose to tell dogs to "stay" or "wait" or they may simply walk away, giving no instructions to the dog.

Test 8: Reaction to another dog

This test demonstrates that the dog can behave politely around other dogs. Two handlers and their dogs approach each other from a distance of about 20 feet, stop, shake hands and exchange pleasantries, and continue on for about 10 feet. The dogs should show no more than casual interest in each other. Neither dog should go to the other dog or its handler.

Test 9: Reaction to distraction

This test demonstrates that the dog is confident at all times when faced with common distracting situations. The evaluator will select and present two distractions. Examples of distractions include dropping a chair, rolling a crate dolly past the dog, having a jogger run in front of the dog, or dropping a crutch or cane. The dog may express natural interest and curiosity and/or may appear slightly startled but should not panic, try to run away, show aggressiveness, or bark. The handler may talk to the dog and encourage or praise it throughout the exercise.

Test 10: Supervised separation

This test demonstrates that a dog can be left with a trusted person, if necessary, and will maintain training and good manners. Evaluators are encouraged to say something like, "Would you like me to watch your dog?" and then take hold of the dog's leash. The owner will go out of sight for three minutes. The dog does not have to stay in position but should not continually bark, whine, or pace unnecessarily, or show anything stronger than mild agitation or nervousness. Evaluators may talk to the dog but should not engage in excessive talking, petting, or management attempts (e.g, "there, there, it's alright").

Equipment

All tests must be performed on leash. Dogs should wear well-fitting buckle or slip collars made of leather, fabric, or chain. Special training collars such as pinch collars, head halters, etc. are not permitted in the CGC test. We recognize that special training collars may be very useful tools for beginning dog trainers, however, we feel that dogs are ready to take the CGC test at the point at which they are transitioned to regular collars.

The evaluator supplies a 20-foot lead for the test. The owner/handler should bring the dog's brush or comb to the test.

Encouragement

Owners/handlers may use praise and encouragement throughout the test. The owner may pet the dog between exercises. Food and treats are not permitted during testing, nor is the use of toys, squeaky toys, etc. to get the dog to do something. We recognize that food and toys may provide valuable reinforcement or encouragement during the training process but these items should not be used during the test.

Failures - Dismissals

Any dog that eliminates during testing must be marked failed. The only exception to this rule is that elimination is allowable in test Item 10, but only when test Item 10 is held outdoors.

Any dog that growls, snaps, bites, attacks, or attempts to attack a person or another dog is not a good citizen and must be dismissed from the test.

[yogibear]

My point is all the exercise we teach at club would give a person a dog capable of cgc and that is a pretty good measure of a pet dog with good manners Its only a matter of looking at them slightly differently for example if a dog can do a stand for exam then it can do a sit for a pat.

Edited April 10, 2006 by yogibear

[snobbybobby]

Most people have no idea how differentiate between the clubs- they join the cheapest on alot of occasions.

I explain the differences in my puppy schools and encourage people to go and see a private club vs. a public one, and I explain the differences between each.

That information isn't available to most people- they would not know where to look or what books are the right ones to read.

Thanks Staff'n'Toller,

This is my theory also.

My neighbour, the conversation with whom prompted me to start this topic, was impressed with the precision of the UD ring etc. yesterday but said she had no desire to "go there".

She went along to this particular club to teach her dog manners. Its methods are based on trialling. The general public are told by Vets. (on the radio as well as in practice) to go to the Obedience Club to teach their dogs manners. Block heeling or, for that matter, individual heeling patterns do not necessarily teach a dog manners. Precision heeling is the basic test for CD.

Not every dog owner is going to teach their dog from videos, books etc. either.

There are, also, numerous cases of dogs who are nervous, fear aggressive etc., and the clubs do not have the expertise to deal with the dogs or the knowledge of whom to refer these dogs to, consequently they are turned away and go on to, god forbid, become more aggessive and PTS.. Clubs should make it their responsibility to at least have a list of people who are behaviourists etc., to whom they can refer dogs with problems.

There are maybe 2 pet dog clubs that I know of within driving distance of where I live. At least an hour drive to either. There are 4 trial based clubs in this region with slightly different emphasis between all 4 depending on the expertise and interest of the instructors (all volunteers, I'll freely admit). All but one, as far as I know, teach block heeling in their general classes.

As somebody, rightly, said 85% at least of the club members have no interest in trials and only go to socialize their dogs, get bored after a while and leave.

I know, in a perfect world, there would be a Trialling Club co-existing with Pet Training Clubs/Schools whatever you like to call them but, in the meantime, surely Jo Public has the right to know the difference.

[poodlefan]

Clubs should make it their responsibility to at least have a list of people who are behaviourists etc., to whom they can refer dogs with problems.

Our club does.

[yogibear]

well thast up to the members of the clubs to change and for volunteesr to be expected to spend thousands on gaining knowledge well thast also an individual thing.

Clubs are doign the best they can with the resources they have available our club has just started sending at least one instructr to each seminar that becomes available and are taking time to watch videos etc to increase their knowledge these things take time

its really up to the individual club to decide what responsibility they want to take if your unhapy with the way your local club runs then get in and change it or start one with a focus that you think is what epople need or maybe consult the local shelters to run pet classes a great way to raise funds for the shelter

Its not a perfect world and belive me ive switched clubs so many times to find one that suits my needs it took a while but i found what i was looking for

Are you an instructr at a club if not why not join the ranks and begin teaching the behaviours you feel are not covered in your classes and slowly encourage the club to adopt the same ideas

[MonElite]

Clubs should make it their responsibility to at least have a list of people who are behaviourists etc., to whom they can refer dogs with problems.

Our club does.

So does ours