snobbybobby Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 I went to a local obedience trial today. I saw what went on, I have been part of that scene in the past but, I then went on to try to explain to a neighbour who is a "newby" in the scene what it is all about. To my mind, all the behaviours that are required in the various levels up to OC, are normal behaviours that dogs exhibit and, when living in the same place as humans, essential for happy cooperation including assistance dogs! The trial culture sees that the behaviours are only customized to "human standards" for show! That is what our local Obedience Clubs aim for IMHO! When are they going to teach pet dog training and, not, teach the heeling routine by "block heeling", which, after all is counter-productive to even the best trial standards?? We can teach a dog to walk on a loose lead "to heel" - if you like "pack drive" - fetch an article "retrieving" etc.. Other behaviours like "sit", "drop", "stay" and "stand" have other, obvious safety uses but, what the dogs already know, we tend to use/apply it to our selfish requirements. Comments are welcome. You can call me a "silly old fool" if you like but I still think our clubs are only aimed at presenting the "team" as a show article! Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 I think it's stylised but may have some connection with daily life ... if people let it ... there are plenty of dogs that trial well but are shocking outside the trial ring. Most competitions are stylised versions of life situations really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 I'm really new to obedience but the way I see it, once you get past a certain stage of obedience you are doing it for the challenge of it, as a hobby, or a sport This could be considered selfish as there is really nothing in it for the dog, but I think that alot of the dogs are just happy to please their handler so is doing them no harm As for the pet dog training, the people who only want to be there for the day to day stuff will do their classes up to trialling and be happy with stopping there And forgive me if I've missed the point!!! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FHRP Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 Not all training clubs main priorityis trialing! My local club has over the past 10 years changed it's syllabus several times, aiming it at pet dog training more and more. This page doesn't go into details of classes, but what the classes are aimed at http://www.actcdc.org.au/classes.asp Senior level training, which doesn't start until your 4th session at earliest, starts to focus on trialing exercises, the lower on pet training. Obedience trials prove that your dog can complete a number of exercises succesfully in an artificial environment. Are the exercises useful? Not always. They have evolved from practical exercises (so I'm told ). An obedience titled dog doesn't mean it's a well behaved pet though I have seen on numerous occasions dogs that are succesful trialers exhibit many undersirable behviours outside the ring! My own 'obedience dogs' are known to pull me along the path at the dog club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 Well i guess if you want a club that atres for pet dog obedience then you join a club that does so i wish we had clubs that were more foccussed on trial work and not trying to be in the middle after all clubs are clubs not schools so why cant we focus on competition competition obedience its self demonstarts a persns ability to train a dog to a certain lever with a criteria that can be judged to give you an idea of how well you are doing its challenging and technical and makes me a trainr have to work harder with my dog than if i was just looking to walk up the road with out being pulled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 (edited) Well put yb! It's the challenge that gets you hooked. Edited April 9, 2006 by sidoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 thanks sidoney its an old argument that keeps coming up Im a triller love it love the challenge the training has created such a strong bond between me and my dog something that is we only aimed for pet control we probabaly wouldnt have as hes pretty well a great dog around the house anyway so wouldnt have ben getting all this one on one that trial work creates. connor loves trial work he loves to hear those words shall we do some work whay accept average when you can have fabulous lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 (edited) I feel this is a very interesting topic, coming from a pet dog training background. I'm training at a positive club at the moment but it still has a very 'competition' focused ideal- I stand to be corrected but that's how it appears to me. It would also appear to me that 95% of the membership have no interest in trialling and would not know what a CDX title is, they are there to train their dogs to be well behaved at home- not in the trial ring. I actually have to disagree with you YB, I feel that the trialling ring is totally fake- I can teach a pattern to my dog quite easily, but up the criteria and have the dog sit/drop/stay/heel at a shopping centre or a school fete- to me that is real obedience and shows self control on the dogs part. Other daily life skills that I feel are much more important than an out of sight stay are waiting to be invited inside the house; waiting to be asked to hop out of the car; not running out the gate or front door of the house; not barging through doors at home; recalling under distraction at the dog park; good manners with visitors, new people and children i.e. four paws on the floor; getting off couches and beds when asked; settling inside- the list goes on! None of these vital and sometimes life saving skills seem to be taught at a traditional trial club. Mel. Edited April 9, 2006 by Staff'n'Toller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 Ok if you go to ballroom dancing classes would you learn tap or pole dancing if a clubs focus is on trial work then thast what you would expect to learn If trial work is so easy then why do only 1 percent of dogs achive that level and then only a few make a passing grade at trials I agree that having that level of control away from a pattern is ultimate and i know my dogs can work under very high distraction maintaining a high level So again i say if thats the type of training a person wants then why would they go to a trial basd club and not one that caters to their needs its like me joining a pet club and complaining they dont have a trial ring set up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snobbybobby Posted April 9, 2006 Author Share Posted April 9, 2006 I feel this is a very interesting topic, coming from a pet dog training background.I actually have to disagree with you YB, I feel that the trialling ring is totally fake- I can teach a pattern to my dog quite easily, but up the criteria and have the dog sit/drop/stay/heel at a shopping centre or a school fete- to me that is real obedience and shows self control on the dogs part. Other daily life skills that I feel are much more important than an out of sight stay are waiting to be invited inside the house; waiting to be asked to hop out of the car; not running out the gate or front door of the house; not barging through doors at home; recalling under distraction at the dog park; good manners with visitors, new people and children i.e. four paws on the floor; getting off couches and beds when asked; settling inside- the list goes on! None of these vital and sometimes life saving skills seem to be taught at a traditional trial club. Mel. I do like what you say!!! That is, precisely, what I'm trying to get across. The average pet owner goes to a local obedience club for just this purpose, to get his/her dog to associate with people in their environment however you might put it! THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!! ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 The they should join a club thats set up to give them those results there are plenty of fantastic schools that will teach a person to do those things to whatever level they want a club does its best with the knowledge they have and if a person is happy with the structure or results then they should a get involved and start making the changes or b go to a club that is designed to take them where they want to go or c read books watch videos and do it on their own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 (edited) Because they never stay long enough...they get bored, dog doesn't learn to walk on a loose lead soon enough, instructors can't help them with their behavioural problems at home. A dog that can't walk nicely on a lead doesn't get walked. A dog that can't settle in the house gets left outside and is ignored. A dog that can't sit still and wait to get out of the car doesn't get driven anywhere. A dog that is too bouncy around the kids gets banished outside. A dog that is ignored out in the backyard for long enough eventually ends up in the pound. If the club can't cater for what the average dog owner needs, the average dog owner doesn't return. I know of no club at the moment who databases their retention rate- I don't just mean overall figures of dogs graduating up in the levels- I mean individual membership numbers 'how often does memeber #5630 attend?'- we started doing it at my last pet dog club, it's expensive and time consuming- and we had the money and the time. Mel. Edited April 9, 2006 by Staff'n'Toller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 i think the thing to remeber here is there is a difference between a club and a school why should clubs change if those that give up their time to run them are happy with what they are doing because you or i said so isnt good enough reason they may not be running to the highest level their techniques may be somewhat backward but its those volunteers that make the club happen so if they are happy with how things are running then so be it its up to members to get involved and make change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 (edited) The they should join a club thats set up to give them those results there are plenty of fantastic schools that will teach a person to do those things to whatever level they want a club does its best with the knowledge they have and if a person is happy with the structure or results then they should a get involved and start making the changes or b go to a club that is designed to take them where they want to go or c read books watch videos and do it on their own Most people have no idea how differentiate between the clubs- they join the cheapest on alot of occasions. I explain the differences in my puppy schools and encourage people to go and see a private club vs. a public one, and I explain the differences between each. That information isn't available to most people- they would not know where to look or what books are the right ones to read. If I have trouble teaching my first puppy to stop jumping on people- how do I get involved and start making changes in a club exactly???? I fell into my first club- ADT - they had good marketing and impressive dogs- lucky the instructors had a good education in training and behaviour, or my old kepie wouldn't be with me today- he was a ratbag! Mel. Edited April 9, 2006 by Staff'n'Toller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snobbybobby Posted April 9, 2006 Author Share Posted April 9, 2006 Thanx everyome! I have found, in my ramblings, that there are two schools of thought. One is intent on competition, the other intent on having a dog fit their family After all "a dog is FOR LIFE not just for Christmas!! Those people who want a dog just for competition don't suit my ideal of dog people. I know where I want to be - in a family situation! My dogs, unashamedly, are my family! <vbg> When I want to compete and "show off my doggy/human skills, I will!!! Please, in the meantime, tell Joe/Josephine Public the difference! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 (edited) Don't see that it needs to be one OR the other. I compete AND live with and enjoy my dogs. I find the high level training improves our relationship, as yb mentioned. They are also great to simply be with, well mannered and so on. Edited April 9, 2006 by sidoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 (edited) Henrynchlo my thoughts are that if I can take my dogs anywhere and they are obedient - then it's pi** easy to teach them a trial routine. I'd like to prove it to everyone but I find trialling so boring and pointless I don't have the motivation. Woe is me. Anyways....off I trudge to the Delta CGC Intensive. Mel. Edited April 9, 2006 by Staff'n'Toller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 Weeeelllll ... there are many fields of competition. My chosen field is agility. Def. not boring. Pointless, probably, apart from the challenge, the achievement, the improved companionship. Training a competition dog goes beyond training a companion dog in terms of accuracy and exact behaviours. Also a greater range of behaviours. It's a fun thing to do for people that love to train. However I do at times see competition dogs that are not "life-trained". That is sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 Sorry Sidoney I'm talking purely obedience trialling. Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 Well you know I used to love obedience trialing too ... only have time for agility though and if I have to make a choice ... which I do ... well agility wins for me. Of course it's even LESS connected with day to day obedience/manners than obedience trialing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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