Scared 9 Month Old Bc

[borderstaff]

I have a 9 month old BC and she is very scared of people she growls every time a strange person try’s to pat her she has never ever tried to bite anyone she just growls and then she curls up and try to hide....scared stiff But there are some strangers she doesn’t care about like the vet the other day Kirra got bitten by a bee the poor thing and it was on her mouth and when the vet went to look at it kirra didn’t care she just let her she didn’t growl nothing she just sat there I really don’t get it. Some people she doesn’t care about but most she is really scared...which is a real problem casue my parnter wants to take her to work with him. he is a sub contrctor bulider but kirra growls would growl at all his customer so she can not go.

I was thinking about taking her to a behaviorist and I have looked into it but the one I looked at it wasn’t what I was looking for, it was more of a dog club and I am looking more for a one on one consultation so if anyone has had a good experice with a behaviorist that has fixed this sort of problem I would love to hear from you about it cause its all very confusing to me who to choose and how to go about it. I live in the Melbourne’s eastern suburbs.

[Tassie]

Hi - I can't help with a behaviourist recommendation - though I do think it's a good idea, provided that you're very careful to get one who is properly trained, and one who has experience with Border Collies. These dogs IMHO, may need a different approach from some other breeds, as they tend to be very soft and sensitive dogs, which do not do well with harsh methods.

In the meantime, my suggestions would be to proceed very carefully - protecting your dog from stress at all times - especially since she may well be going through an age-related fear period in addition to any underlying issues she may have. Don't baby her - just make sure she feels safe. Don't allow strangers or anyone you're not totally comfortable with to get into the dog's discomfort zone. Really reward any occasion - like at the vet's (yay) - where she shows she is comfortable, but basically ignore other behaviours while taking her to a safe distance. Reward for looking at you in situations where she is feeling discomfort.

And please - treasure and respect the growl. She's a very good girl for indicating to you in that way that she's uncomfortable. Listen to her, take her to a distance from the 'scary' person where you can feel her relax, and do some simple training with her, to show her that you respect her feelings and that you are in control of the situation and will keep her safe. The very LAST thing you want to do is to teach her not to growl - because her next step could be to bite without growling first.

Hope others can help some more.

Barb (the other Kirra's mum)

[snobbybobby]

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I was thinking about taking her to a behaviorist and I have looked into it but the one I looked at it wasn’t what I was looking for, it was more of a dog club and I am looking more for a one on one consultation so if anyone has had a good experice with a behaviorist that has fixed this sort of problem I would love to hear from you about it cause its all very confusing to me who to choose and how to go about it. I live in the Melbourne’s eastern suburbs.

Hi,

I suggest you look at the Delta website for lists of trainers/behaviourists. There would be some in your vicinity, I'm sure. Haven't got the web address to hand but, if you do a Google, you will find it.

Dr. Deb. Calnon a vetinary behaviourist she is around Oakleigh way and is one of the best & Dr. Robert Holmes is also in the Camberwell area. Good to hear you are considering getting help It would be so sad to ignore this behaviour and end up with a dog labelled dangerous.

[borderstaff]

Really reward any occasion - like at the vet's (yay)

yeah i do do this but i doest appear to help but it cant do any harm well thats what i think. I do praise her alot when she is good.

The very LAST thing you want to do is to teach her not to growl - because her next step could be to bite without growling first.

but how do i teach her not to growl i usally just say no to her but she looks at me and does it anyway sometime she has a little aditude???

though I do think it's a good idea, provided that you're very careful to get one who is properly trained, and one who has experience with Border Collies.

can you get a ones that are experienced in border collies that would be really good...i really want to see someone that has been recommended casue i know there are alot out there that say they are good but are not....and knowing my luck i will get one that knows nothing hehehehehehe.....

Dr. Deb. Calnon a vetinary behaviourist she is around Oakleigh way and is one of the best & Dr. Robert Holmes is also in the Camberwell area.

ok i will look in to it but do you know of anyone how has used them for this or similar behavour???

Thank you guys so much for this i will take in everything you have said and work on my little girl and her probs...

[snobbybobby]

but how do i teach her not to growl i usally just say no to her but she looks at me and does it anyway sometime she has a little aditude???

can you get a ones that are experienced in border collies that would be really good...i really want to see someone that has been recommended casue i know there are alot out there that say they are good but are not....and knowing my luck i will get one that knows nothing hehehehehehe.....

ok i will look in to it but do you know of anyone how has used them for this or similar behavour???

Answer:

With respect kkisiel, I think what Tassie was saying was DON'T try to stop her growling because it is a warning before actually biting. If you punish what is known as a precursor, she will bite without that warning. Dogs, after all, have only their teeth to ward off a "big bad boogie man", their growl is a precursor to using their teeth.

It's excellent advice which, if I were you, would start putting into practice while waiting to see a Vet. behaviourist. Who knows you may not need to go to that extent o:)

Dr. Deb. Calnon and Dr. Robert Holmes are at the top of their field as Vetinary Behaviourists. You won't find any better

Edited March 27, 2006 by henrynchlo

[fido666]

I've heard nothing but good things about Dr Debbie Calnon, I believe she runs a weekly clinic at Doncaster on Tuesday nights. She will do home consults too, I will PM you her contact details. What others have said about not teaching her not to growl makes sense, it's better she growls than bites first. Please do go and see someone this problem needs to be addressed sooner rather than later.

Cheers,

Corine

[snobbybobby]

I've heard nothing but good things about Dr Debbie Calnon, I believe she runs a weekly clinic at Doncaster on Tuesday nights.

Thank you Corinne.

Our dogs rely on us and the best we can do is paramount.

I might come across as a stupid ***** but, I love my animals and want the best for them. I certainly don't want to misunderstand their needs by putting human, as opposed to canine/feline, values on them.

I fervently believe that we have to figure out what goes on in their minds before trying to 'control' them.

Regards.

Henrynchlo

[borderstaff]

Thank you Corine for the PM thats great....

I fervently believe that we have to figure out what goes on in their minds before trying to 'control' them.

Henrynchlo i totaly aggree with you....i dont want to do anything to confuss her thats why i want a really good behaviourists i just love my litttle kirra and i hate seeing her so scared all the time..

just a question have you guys used this lady or just heard good things about her im just intrested thats all!!!!!!

[Tassie]

Thanks Henrynchlo - yes, that's what I meant.

In other words, I'm suggesting that she shouldn't be corrected at all for growling - not even with a 'no'. Her growling is a way of communicating her discomfort and stress. IMHO, it's then the owner/leader's job to respect that, and remove the dog from the stressful situation. Stepping in front of the dog as you turn to go in a different direction is one way of doing that. The stepping in front says "Yep- not a problem - I'll put myself between you and the worrying thing/person. Now let's go do something nice".

yeah i do do this but i doest appear to help but it cant do any harm well thats what i think. I do praise her alot when she is good.

Great - it's really important in building her confidence that you let her know when she's right - every time. Each little success builds up her confidence.

Kkiesel, I just wanted to say that I think it's great that you're paying attention to what your pup is telling you about how she feels, and that you're looking to get professional help for her. It sounds as though Dr Debbie Calnon is a great recommendation.

We can't see your dog, so we're going on your descriptions, and what we're suggesting are things you can do in the meantime that might help, and shouldn't hurt.

Your girl may never be a totally confident party animal or social butterfly, but there are some nervous Border Collies out there who can overcome their fears to the extent of enjoying performance sports, and just ignoring the people they don't want to meet.

It may be for your girl that being your OH's truck dog might not be an appropriate future for her - but who knows.

Do let us know how you get on.

Barb

(Edited to fix typos - I should learn to proofread before I post!)

Edited March 27, 2006 by Tassie

[borderstaff]

In other words, I'm suggesting that she shouldn't be corrected at all for growling - not even with a 'no'. Her growling is a way of communicating her discomfort and stress.

I'll put myself between you and the worrying thing/person. Now let's go do something nice".

its funny you said this cause this is exactly what i have started doing the last 2 weeks and it does seem to work alot better casue then when she is ready to see someone she pulls to say hi then pulls way again so she does want to trust people it sems she just needs time..

It may be for your girl that being your OH's truck dog might not be an appropriate future for her - but who knows.

Hehehehe truck dog thats cute!!! she does love helping him we are renovating and she just loves following him from room to room and she just watches him all the time its so cute thats why we thought she would love going to work with him but who know she might be a changed dog but she might not fingers crossed she will be fine...

I will definaly keep you all posted with her progress!!!!!!

[fido666]

Thank you Corine for the PM thats great....

Henrynchlo i totaly aggree with you....i dont want to do anything to confuss her thats why i want a really good behaviourists i just love my litttle kirra and i hate seeing her so scared all the time..

just a question have you guys used this lady or just heard good things about her im just intrested thats all!!!!!!

Hi KKISIEL,

I looked into using Debbie for a problem I was having with Duncan. The trainer I was working with at the time recommended her. I know people who have attended her clinics as students and say she can do wonderful things with problem dogs. I didn't end up going through with a consult as I believe his lack of focus and attention was because he was house bound so long after surgery that he just went "yipee" when I finally was able to take him around other dogs again.

Your issue does need attention, having lived with a fear biter I know it's not something that will go away by itself. Good luck with resolving the problem, I really hope it works out.

Cheers,

Corine

[borderstaff]

Yeah i called her yesterday at lunch time and she is way till 5th april so i will have to wait and see its not that long to wait.....

does anyone have any idea or a round about price of each lesson????

[fido666]

Hi KKISIEL,

Please PM me your email addy and I will forward the info she sent me. It has some costs listed on it but as that info was sent to me almost a year ago these may have changed.

Regards,

Corine

[sas]

IMO she needs to trust you as her leader so she knows you'll look after her and protect her. How is your relationship, do you use NILIF at home?

I'd see a behaviourist to assist you before it gets any worse making sure the behaviourist has experience in this particular field.

[borderstaff]

Hi sas

im sorry i dont understand what NILIF is.....

i do think so knows i am the boss/Leader and our relationship is VERY close i have had her since the day she was born so im all she has ever known she sleeps on our bedroom floor everynight and come on the bed for snuggles in the morning. Anytime anything happens she always comes running to me as if to say "Mummy can i go" or can "i have some too" and everyone tells me how much she loves me.... hehehe she is a moocher!!!!

[KismetKat]

I scored a freebie copy of a DVD called The Dog Listener - it's a bit like Super Nanny but with dogs. The show's format is a bit naff but she seems to get good results (though watching back to back eps on DVD it was a bit repetitive.). Aside from establishing leadership her main tool seems to be ignorning the dog. She was basically saying that by looking at the dog, the dog then thinks some sort of behaviour is required, so it does something (anything!) in the hope that it is the behaviour that is wanted.

So when there was a scared shy dog, she would not try and make friends with it, but owners and her would sit in lounge room, not making any eye-contact with the dog (and also she would not behave in any threatening way). Eventually dog realises it doesn't have to 'do' anything, and relaxes.

She does the same sort of thing with over-friendly dogs, don't make eye contact, gently push away if it jumps on you, wait till dog settles of own accord, and then she says 'hello' (so saying hello on her terms).

What do behaviourists here think of her? I think her name was Jan Fennel. She's a brit.

[fido666]

Hi sas

im sorry i dont understand what NILIF is.....

i do think so knows i am the boss/Leader and our relationship is VERY close i have had her since the day she was born so im all she has ever known she sleeps on our bedroom floor everynight and come on the bed for snuggles in the morning. Anytime anything happens she always comes running to me as if to say "Mummy can i go" or can "i have some too" and everyone tells me how much she loves me.... hehehe she is a moocher!!!!

NILIF = Nothing In Life Is Free

It basically means that the dog has to "work" for every reward. By "work" i mean perform some sort of action such as a sit. A reward can be a pat, a game, food, walks, etc. Many trainers also believe you should make a dog work for it's meals too (i.e. having to extract the food from a kong or other interactive toy rather than just being given a dish of food). That's not always practical but you can still make the dog do a few "looks", sits, come, etc with a small piece of the meal before they are allowed the rest.

A lot of trainers will tell you not to let your dog up on the bed or furniture as you are in effect "giving up your territory". None of us are perfect, mine hop up too sometimes but get off when told. It's all about establishing the rules of the pack and what is acceptable to you.

Cheers,

Corine

Cheers,

Corine

I scored a freebie copy of a DVD called The Dog Listener - it's a bit like Super Nanny but with dogs. The show's format is a bit naff but she seems to get good results (though watching back to back eps on DVD it was a bit repetitive.). Aside from establishing leadership her main tool seems to be ignorning the dog. She was basically saying that by looking at the dog, the dog then thinks some sort of behaviour is required, so it does something (anything!) in the hope that it is the behaviour that is wanted.

So when there was a scared shy dog, she would not try and make friends with it, but owners and her would sit in lounge room, not making any eye-contact with the dog (and also she would not behave in any threatening way). Eventually dog realises it doesn't have to 'do' anything, and relaxes.

She does the same sort of thing with over-friendly dogs, don't make eye contact, gently push away if it jumps on you, wait till dog settles of own accord, and then she says 'hello' (so saying hello on her terms).

What do behaviourists here think of her? I think her name was Jan Fennel. She's a brit.

I'm not a behaviourist but pushing a dog away when it jumps on you is a form of contact and therefore a reward. I haven't seen the DVD so can't comment on how good her methods are overall.

Cheers,

Corine