spikey Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 (edited) Our Belgian pup is 15 weeks old and is suffering with the "itchies" at the moment. I went through allergy problems with my last dog and always hoped and prayed that I'd never have a dog with the same problems again, but looks like it's not to be! He always had an itchy tummy when he was at the breeder, and tended to scratch at himself a bit - we brought him home at 10 weeks and the problem is continuing and now seems to be getting worse. After a severe scatching bout one evening (and apparently overnight - happened after we'd been down to a breed show) when the skin in one of his armpits was blood red and he was close to breaking the skin, I took him to our local vet who pretty much just threw her hands up in the air and said it "could be x, y, z, or a, b, c," and we could try "this, that, the other and anything else" and just waffled on for about 10 minutes about all the things it could possibly be and all the treatments he may have to undergo which wasn't particularly helpful! I already knew all that because I've been through it ALL before with my GSD - and I'd told her that. She then put him on a very small dose of steroids to break the itching cycle and give his skin a chance to recover - the steroids have done practically nothing, the itching has maybe reduced by 10% -20% but that's all. I am not happy about putting him on a elimination diet at the moment - those diets are nowhere near adequate for a growing puppy. He is currently on Hills Science Diet Large Breed Puppy and also gets chicken necks and wings - he was on a completely different food at the breeders and was itchy then too so I have my doubts whether it is food related. He does seem to be particularly itchy when we go down to the Canine Centre for training or shows - maybe there's something about the grass there? He had been on Advocate prior to us bringing him home, when he came due I treated him with Frontline Plus (same as our adult dog) so I'm sure the problem isn't fleas. I have now treated him with Revolution (3 days ago) in case it's scabies/sarcoptic mites, he is on fish oil capsules (1000mg) morning and night and have been putting Neotopic lotion on the worst itchy spots. I've also been using aloe vera gel as well in some spots. He seems to be particularly itchy under his chin, on his chest, armpits, shoulders, hocks, flanks and the backs of his legs - most places really, the poor little bugger. I'm not happy at all about taking him back to the same vet as she really didn't seem to know anything "concrete" about treating allergies and I will be taking him to Murdoch Uni next week to get them to have a look at him - he will be referred there for intra-dermal testing anyway if it comes to that so might as well cut out additional unnecessary appointments (and expense!). Anyway, I have seen a number of people who have mentioned they use Phenergan for dogs with allergies. I have Phenergan tablets at home and was wondering what dosage is used (our pup is 12kg) just to help ease these horrible itchies and make pup's life easier until we can (hopefully) find out what's causing it all. I suspect it could be a contact allergy of some sort although all we have in our yard is sand and grass, we have no plants or trees of any kind. The breeder lives in a rural area, almost an hour's drive away from our suburban backyard so if puppy was itchy in both places, then it's unlikely to be a similar allergen. **sigh** The joys of having an itchy dog Any help/suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Edited May 25, 2006 by spikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carabelle Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Hi Spikey I give my toy dog phenergan on an occasional basis, she is around 4kg and I give her 1/2 tablet twice a day, it really helps her. I think she has a grass allergy (undiagnosed as most allergies seem to be) and has recently been reacting to oatmeal shampoo which was not a problem before. I also use aloe vera to good effect on any scratch marks. I was speaking to a friend who has a dog that scratches all the time now matter what she has tried, her vet thinks it may be due to the heartworm vaccination she had some time ago - food for thought. My dog has not had the heartworm injection but the allergies run in her lines. Best of luck I know how frustrating this can be for both the dog and you. Carabelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 hi, Sorry you are going through this again! I have two allergy dogs so I know what it is like!!! Phenergan or any other antihistamine (or drug for that matter) should not be given without consultation with a vet, esp. to puppies. Sometimes they are not suitable for young animals or need a different dosage. If your local vet is no help try another to get a referral to a dermatologist (certainly sounds like they need one!). Please also bare in mind if this dog was to be a breeding dog that there is a genetic component to allergies that can be passed on to progeny. You certainly need to find out what exactly is wrong with them! good luck. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgan Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Can't help with advice on Phenergan, and have never had a dog with allergies in 30 yrs (no annual boosters!) but have had lots of success treating human allergies with vitamin c. Maybe it would be worth a try? Several doses of a non-acidic vit c (eg sodium ascorbate powder) each day works on all sorts of human allergies, even had success with an allergy to cats, so I don't see why it wouldn't help with dogs.. as for dosage, I would try dosing to bowel tolerance first, just to see how much the body needs, then drop back a little. At least there are no side effects, and in large doses in puppies helps prevent hip dysplasia by strengthening connective tissues! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttaburra Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Polaramine is also used off label for pets with allergies. They all can have side effects. Certainly as a last resort, and provided they are not conflicting with any other medication or treatment they are worth a try, I only say this as it was told to me by a trusted vet. Since it is just a pup, it might be worth trying homeopathic treatments, his system is young and should be responsive. I think Apis (bee sting) and one based on nettle are two of them. Look around for the common hedge plant, Plumbago, the one with the pretty blue flowers, this is highly allergenic for some dogs. The fact that it is his chin, shoulders etc, sounds like it might be a contact allergy from plants. Could you try keeping him in a pen or in the house for a week, limiting any contact with plants and grasses? It might help to confirm whether its insect or plant. You can also request some cortisone creme at the chemist, they keep behind the prescriptions counter, but it doesn't need a prescription. This can give some relief, but not necessarily a cure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikey Posted March 21, 2006 Author Share Posted March 21, 2006 Thanks for the replies everyone. It's certainly a frustrating time for us - the vet at Murdoch said she is pretty sure it is some sort of airborne allergen but the only way to be sure is to have intra-dermal testing done. Unfortunately he has to be off steroids or any other sort of medication for 6 weeks and as he has just been on the short course of steroids, we will have to wait 6 weeks before testing can be done. In the meantime, she has suggested washing him with something like Malaseb and also using the cream - although the cream has cortisone in it, so I would have assumed that would affect the test results as well? I will have to check with the dermatologist. Morgan: Great idea about the Vitamin C. Where would I get the powder? Health food shop or maybe supermarket? Abergavenny: I thought of contact allergy too, but it would have to be a grass allergy as we do not have ANY plants or trees in our yard at all, we have no garden whatsoever, just sand, grass and concrete in the backyard. We do have an outside pen but of course the ground in the pen is covered in grass! Keeping him inside all day is unfortunately not an option as we both work full time and there's no way we can get home during the day to let him out for toilet breaks etc and we don't have a "safe" area in the house where we can shut him in except for the laundry (we are renovating the bathroom at the moment, so that room has no door!) which has large glass sliding doors and it gets horrendously hot during the day so there's no way I could leave him in there. Thanks for the suggestion of homeopathic medicines, I will look into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poodle wrangler Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Phenergan comes in different strength tablets (e.g. 10mg, 30mg) so it's a bit dodgy talking about 'how many' tablets. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it needs a prescription for humans. Side effects include drowsiness and dry mouth. I'd get vet advice as human medicines may be cheaper/ easier but unsuitable. Best of luck. I have a child with eczema and it's horrible watching them being so uncomfortable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttaburra Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Spikey, it could be the grass then. After a severe scatching bout one evening (and apparently overnight - happened after we'd been down to a breed show) Also he could have come into contact with something else at the show.If his skin is already reactive, contact with the grass could make it worse (even if not allergic to grass). There is a herbal and zinc based cream that also acts as a bit of a barrier cream, called something like K9, its a bit hard to get but might help a little bit. All I could suggest in the short term is that you cover the grass in his pen with outdoor "artificial grass", get rid of any woolly blankets & bedding, and replace them all with pure cotton blankets. (wool can contain some invisible plant residues like lanonline cream). Also are there sandflies or midges in your area? You might be able to throw some old mosquito netting over the pen or some flyscreen wire on the outside. I have heard somewhere that fleas like sand, so maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgan Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Vit c - you can buy "Nature's Own" Sodium ascorbate powder at most health food shops and a lot of the bigger chemists - it is very salty in taste, so you need to put a teaspoon of it (about 3gms of vit c) in enough water so it isn't too strong, and syringe it down the pup's throat several times a day. Also give a zinc tablet daily, plus some flaxseed oil (or keep up with the fish oil) for omega-3s. If these don't help, try a homoeopath, but skin problems can take a while to sort out this way unless you are lucky! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Contact allergies are extremely rare, it is far more likely to be atopy, esp. with the symptoms you describe. Which of the Derms are you seeing at Murdoch? They are both wonderful... this is where my dogs go... Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikey Posted March 22, 2006 Author Share Posted March 22, 2006 Contact allergies are extremely rare, it is far more likely to be atopy, esp. with the symptoms you describe. Which of the Derms are you seeing at Murdoch? They are both wonderful... this is where my dogs go... Dan We haven't seen any of the Derms yet - yesterday was our first visit, I wasted so much time with various vets with my previous dog who had allergies that I thought I would go straight to Murdoch, have him seen by one of their vets and they could refer me straight to the Derms. I have to ring them to make an appointment for the testing for when these steroids are out of his system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 You will probablly need to have a consult with one of the Derms first, he is quite young for intradermal skin testing atm, often they wont do it when they are so young as its not difinitive... I'd ring up and see if you can make an appointment for an intitial consult and discussion first... Feel free to PM me if you want any further info about Murdoch etc. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikey Posted March 22, 2006 Author Share Posted March 22, 2006 You will probablly need to have a consult with one of the Derms first, he is quite young for intradermal skin testing atm, often they wont do it when they are so young as its not difinitive... I'd ring up and see if you can make an appointment for an intitial consult and discussion first... Feel free to PM me if you want any further info about Murdoch etc. Dan Thanks Dan, I will give them a call. Unfortunately the "itchies" have been overtaken by something more serious at the moment. Poor pup had a sudden onset of prolonged and violent vomiting late afternoon two days ago, he was unable to eat or drink anything, by 7pm he was vomiting blood-specked foam and has been hospitalised since . X-rays and blood tests haven't shown up anything so he's having a comprehensive abdominal ultrasound this morning to rule out possible blockage or foreign body that might have been missed on the x-ray imaging, and the ultrasound will also show intestinal inflammation etc so they can try to make a solid diagnosis. Poor little bastard has been on a drip and pain meds for the last day and a half. It's so distressing not knowingh exactly what's wrong and it's awful going home and he's not there. And he's such a baby as well, this sort of thing is so hard on such a little man. Hopefully will have some good news later today. On a slightly brighter note, I guess it will be interesting to see whether he is itchy when he comes home as he will have spent several days in a "sterile" environment, away from any airborne or contact allergens and also off his normal food as well so it might be an opportunity for us to see what he is actually reacting to. So maybe there could be a silver lining to this cloud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Gee, that is awful, hope you find out what is wrong with him... Hmmmm, my girl gets really bad hurling with a couple of her allergies so if you don't find anything else it could be related to that (although I am told she is pretty unusual in this).... Let us know how you go! Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikey Posted March 23, 2006 Author Share Posted March 23, 2006 Gee, that is awful, hope you find out what is wrong with him... Hmmmm, my girl gets really bad hurling with a couple of her allergies so if you don't find anything else it could be related to that (although I am told she is pretty unusual in this)....Let us know how you go! Dan Well, poor little woof is still in hospital. The ultrasound technician was "pretty sure" there was a foreign body showing on the ultrasound so the vet recommended surgery but ended up not finding anything so we still don't really know what's wrong. They wouldn't let us see him last night as they don't allow visits after surgery, I have to ring back this morning. If he has had a bowel movement overnight and there is no more vomiting, they then feel he will be on the way to recovery and can come home in the next couple of days. I just want him out of there and home. If he has any further problems I will be taking him to Murdoch. We had him admitted to Balcatta Vet Hospital as it is only a few minutes from home so we thought that would be a better option but I think now it was a mistake and he would have been better off and received better (and faster) treatment at Murdoch. Still, we can all be wise in hindsight I suppose. Fingers crossed that he will be home soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttaburra Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 How's the little puppy doing now? Is he home from the vets yet? Regarding the skin condition, I chased down a bit of info. As Dan said there can be internal causes that show skin symptoms, and these may require various diagnostic procedures. Regarding contact allergies, I have read that although less common, this is mostly because dogs have a good covering of fur. A puppy or dog with a hairless belly and underarms would then be quite exposed to contact allergy. It the easiest to diagnose or locate, as it involves a local skin reaction to a topical substance, and it is recommended that through a small amount of detective work, the cause can easily be removed and the skin problem disappears. Possible allergens are: particular grasses, woool blanket, carpet, carpet cleaner, wax polish, plant or insects. If it is on the dogs back as well then it could be shampoo or other products applied to the skin. This was definitely the problem with my bare bellied JRT boy. (Plumbago and certain grasses). I am also making a separate thread with the following directions for a skin poultice found in an Indian magazine. One of the most helpful home remedies is to plaster a paste of Chikcpea curd, and Chickpea Flour (‘besan’) over the area. Let it dry before washing off. Repeat over the next few days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 Well, poor little woof is still in hospital. The ultrasound technician was "pretty sure" there was a foreign body showing on the ultrasound so the vet recommended surgery but ended up not finding anything so we still don't really know what's wrong. Wow! Sorry to hear you are still having problems... what a rough time! Hope things improve from here... Balcatta is a bit of a funny place isn't it? But I think most emergency vets are... Let us know how you go... Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikey Posted March 28, 2006 Author Share Posted March 28, 2006 Hi guys Well, young Rex is back at home, with us still really none the wiser as to what the initial cause of the vomiting etc was - the vets have put it down to "some sort of viral gastritis". He is recovering from the op, still on a number of small meals a day and he is so thin it's heartbreaking. He is desperately hungry and will try to scavenge up ANYTHING he can get into his little mouth, no matter what it is so we have to be very vigilant with him. I am feeding him as much as I think is safe without overloading his system and making him sick again and am gradually increasing the volume of food. Thankfully he does seem a lot brighter, so fingers crossed he's on the road to recovery. Thanks for the info re allergies - Rex's problems seems to be all over, on his back, sides and legs as well as under his chin, chest and armpits so I doubt contact allergy is the cause. I only started using shampoo (colloidal oatmeal-based) AFTER the itchiness developed, so I'm stumped as to what is causing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 Glad to hear he is back home, hope he keeps getting better!! Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zara Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 Hi. In regards to the use of phenergan, i really have no idea about it's use on animals. I do no for human use you can buy it over the counter at any chemist. I used it with my skin baby for sleepless nights. I found it done more harm then any thing. As the dr told me phenergan will only work for some. In some cases it will help the child, giving both mother and baby a decent nights sleep, in other cases it will do the complete opposite making them hyper, or in my case it will settle the child for 10 mins or so then they will wake in a terrified state of not knowing where they are and whay they are doing. Trust me that was bad! As i said i am not sure about the effects on fur kids but thought i would just mention it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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