Itchy Puppy

[goldieneale]

Hi spikey,

Our golden retriever has been very much the same as your pup. She has been a very itchy scratchy dog since about 3 mths of age (wasn't b4 that strangely??). We did all those silly skin tests as well. She used to scratch furiously under her armpits until it bled (then we'd have to do the antibiotic thing to control infection ) Nothing helped until we changed her diet to barf patties, the pork ones (as they are the best for allergy dogs) and we saw a huge improvement within about a week. Her skin colouring died down from a very pink colour to a paler creamy colour, she stopped itching a lot (she still itches a little but NOWHERE near as much) and we also started using aloveen oatmeal conditioner on her to sooth her skin.

I know which things i can't give her food wise...if i give her tuna she will start getting scratchy and little pimply sore things on her tummy. We are still learning which foods make her react but i really think an all natural diet really might be worth trying. We now keep away from dry food, they just aren't good for our dog.

Hope things start to improve.

[spikey]

Thanks for the info and advice guys, it's always interesting to hear how other people have dealt with this problem as it gives me other options I could try. Sounds like the BARF patties were a huge help in your situation goldieneale, I think from what you and Dan have said, the all natural diet might really be the way to go. Dan, could you please give me the links for the other diets? Thanks.

Unfortunately, two weeks into this elimination diet / scabies meds trial, Rex actually seems to be getting worse. There has been no reduction in the level of itching yet (although maybe it's too early to hope for that) and he seems to be scratching even more at his chest / armpit/elbow area and is getting red sores and marks there. I am using the Neocort cream on them at the moment, but if it gets any worse I will have to try and get him back down to Murdoch this week as it won't be long before he breaks the skin and makes the situation a whole lot worse.

[zayda_asher]

I'm just checking on the link for one of the groups, when I have it I will PM them all to you

Sorry to hear he is getting itchier... could be a few things: the change in weather, reaction to one of the meds, even the medicated shampoo drying him out (happens, sometimes you have to swap types to get one that is right for them) etc. Hope things settle, good luck working it out if it doesn't!

Dan

[spikey]

Hi Dan

I definitely think the shampoo has something to do with it - I gave Rex another bath with the Episoothe yesterday and he was itchier afterwards, even though I'd put on the Resisoothe leave in conditioner. I might give Aloveen a try, I've heard good things about it. Anything's worth a try at this stage!!!!

Actually, have just had an email from Sharon - she said the Aloveen has the same active ingredient as Episoothe so may cause the same problems. She said for extremely itchy woofers, they often use Johnsons Baby Shampoo, so I guess I'm off to the supermarket this afternoon!

Edited April 24, 2006 by spikey

[zayda_asher]

Yeah, one of my friends has a Staffy who is real allergic to oatmeal so she can't use any of those products... good luck with the JBS!

Dan

[carabelle]

I cannot use Aloveen or Episoothe on my bitch who has itchy skin, it makes it so very much worse. I use Malasab which works well for her and baby shampoo on her head and ears. Good luck.

[spikey]

I was really surprised when I was told that Episoothe etc can actually make the itchies worse, because they're designed to help soothe itchy skin! Just goes to show, different things work for different dogs. I'm glad you've found something that works for your dog Carabelle, thanks for your post - I will try the baby shampoo first and if it doesn't help then I'll give the Malaseb a go.

[zayda_asher]

I was really surprised when I was told that Episoothe etc can actually make the itchies worse, because they're designed to help soothe itchy skin! Just goes to show, different things work for different dogs.

Yep, sure can be allergic to anything!! Asher is allergic to tea tree (melaleuca family), dandelion (daisy family) and Burdock, all of which are used in alternative therapies!

Both mine don't do as well with the malaseb, but are great with the episoothe!

What's good for one may not work for another or be bad for another!

Dan

[zayda_asher]

Any news on how the little fella is doing? I hope all is well :rolleyes:

Dan

[spikey]

Hi Dan

We just had our first revisit to Murdoch yesterday (Sharon is on study leave, so saw Mandy this time). Unfortunately there has been little improvement in Rex's itching. He has been on the Hills z/d for 4 weeks now, and is nearly at the end of the scabies treatment (it obviously wasn't scabies). He is still biting and scratching at himself in all the same places - I have been giving him evening primrose oil for the last couple of weeks and have also been breaking open some of the capsules and rubbing the oil onto his chest every morning, which was one of the itchiest areas, and this seems to have helped a bit.

I was very reluctant to go ahead with the allergy testing for a couple of reasons, mainly because Rex is so young and it's quite likely the testing would not give accurate results anyway. However Mandy said there has been a new blood test developed (currently only available in the US) which has proved quite effective in identifying atopic allergies. The test won't be available in Australia until later this year, but Murdoch can access it via the US (the bloods have to be sent there) - it was less expensive than I thought it would be ($250) so we went ahead with it, although it will take 4 weeks for the results to come back.

In the meantime, Rex remains on the Hills z/d and Mandy said to increase the amount of EPO he is getting, as well as giving him flaxseed oil. She has also given me an insect repellent to spray on him twice daily for an "insect trial", to see whether it helps in case he is reacting to insect bites. If there is still no improvement for Rex in the next few weeks, Mandy wants him to go on the home-cooked diet, in case he is one of the tiny percentage of dogs who is allergic to the chicken in its hydrolysed form in the Hills z/d. Oh, and continue washing him with the Johnson Baby Shampoo - the Episoothe was DEFINITELY making him worse.

So it's still really a matter of wait and see

[zayda_asher]

Ah, its a bummer at this point of testing... I remember it well

Great that the new blood testing has come in... I had heard some rumours of it... Its a pain that you have to wait, but great that it can be sent over to the US... That's no more expensive than doing the intradermal testing anyways!

Good luck with him... Let us know when you find out the results of the blood test. Once you know what you are fighting it makes it so much easier... I have found lots of ways to work with different atopic allergies, so I might have some ideas for you if he is allergic to similar things to my two.

Oh, I forgot: Are you giving him Vit E at all?? That helps with the up take of the omega 3s and is also good for the skin... I give one cap a day with their fish oil (EPO in your case)... Might also be good on his skin too.

Take care,

Dan

Edited May 10, 2006 by zayda_asher

[spikey]

Hi Dan

No, haven't used Vitamin E yet - but I'll give anything a try!!! I have to get some flaxseed oil for him, so will get some Vitamin Es at the same time. Thanks for the tip!

I'll let you know as soon as I get the blood test results, it will be interesting to see what shows up. If the test is a truly effective one, it will certainly be a lot easier and more convenient than the intradermal testing, for owners as well as their dogs!

Julie

[InspectorRex]

Glad to read that some testing has been done for your furkid.

My girl that I last to inflammatory bowel disease last year was one of the few % of dogs that couldnot tolerate the Z/d due to the chicken component.

Having had a very atopic puppy dog( at 4 mths) I really empathise with you and hope that these latest tests give you results.

Did Mandy suggest a human prescription cream called Elidel? It did give my atopic pup some relief. From memory was about $35 and I had take the dog's script to the Chemist to be dispensed

[Jed]

Pity you haven't got to the bottom of it - so frustrating. Keep up the Vit C - I use the tablets, simpler with a few dogs, for me.

I have a rescue cav here who was nearly bald. He was obviously on cortisone, as he became much worse after he had been here for a short time. I feel that he too is allergic to Aloveen - he came with the shampoo, and I found he was worse after a bath. I think his allergies are probably food preservative/colourig based. He is now on a natural diet.

A few non invasive things I have found which seem to help "skin" dogs are - Quititch, which is an iodine based - it is an antiseptic, anti fungal and anti bacterial. You can spot it on, use as a rinse, or shampoo. I have been shampooing the Cav in it, and he seems to be able to cope with that better than Aloveen or Malaseb. Worth a go.

Howevr, the thing I find most useful is Alpha Keri Oil - from the chemist - it is a water based oil, and I pat it onto the itchy or bald, or red places and it soothes and improves. I do it once or twice a week, and only bath every couple of weeks. Sometimes the dogs are better for not beng bathed too frequently.

A lot of show people use Johnsons Baby Shampoo with Alpha Keri oil as a shampoo on show dogs. If you put it on the itchy places, they look bad, but it seems to provide relief. And it's not expensive.

Rudducks make a product called Poly Vite - it is a vitamin tonic, and contains linoelic acid, which is great for skin problems. I give itchy dogs this, and it does seem to help - over a few weeks.

These are just non-vet treatments, but I have found them all to provide relief, and often to provide a cure.

Might be worth a go.

Good luck with him - itches are just sooooo frustrating.

[zayda_asher]

Howevr, the thing I find most useful is Alpha Keri Oil - from the chemist - it is a water based oil, and I pat it onto the itchy or bald, or red places and it soothes and improves. I do it once or twice a week, and only bath every couple of weeks. Sometimes the dogs are better for not beng bathed too frequently.

Ahhh, I've been wondering about using some Keri oil... You just answered that question for me

Will give it a go, thanks.

Dan

[Jed]

It's good stuff - you can mix it with water and spray on coated dogs to keep the coat and good condition, and to help remove knots.

Can only not work! I've found it good - I think it helps with the secondary bacterial infectons, and it seems to reduce the scratching. I slopped some on one day (in desperation) and was happy with the results. It's certainly never made anyone worse.

Quite a few of my rescues have skin problems. Perhaps that is why they were abandoned. Most improve with a natural diet (basically BARF), (though some have been allergic to red meat) lots of veges, specially greens, vit c and e, the polyvite, fish oils and other oils, and not using "regular" shampoo.

I've also used Colloidal Silver, which I have found excellent for cuts and wounds, and it seemed to provide relief too.

I believe that colourings/preservatives and things like human shampoo, sunlight soap or woolmix, derange the skin, and the skin survives for a couple - or a few - years, and then cannot take it any more, and skin problems arise.

I wonder if Spikey's pup had a reaction to one of the treatments he had - maybe heartworm, maybe flea treatments. Deranged the immune system.

Building up the immune system with Vit C is a good idea, and I'd maybe try some homeopathic treatments, but the problem seems to be to find a good homeopath.

[spikey]

InspectorRex: No, Mandy hasn't mentioned Elidel, I will ask her about it as I send weekly email updates to them on Rex's condition. Rex got his name, by the way, because I'm a big Inspector Rex fan (even though my boy's a Belgian, not a GSD)

Jed: I've never heard of Alpha Keri Oil, thanks for the info, I'll be heading straight off to the chemist to get some today! Yes, the itchies are SO frustrating as there are just so many things that could be a cause. It's quite possible Rex has reacted to a flea or heartworm treatment, who knows? He was treated with Advocate by the breeder and then when we brought him home, and is now on Revolution. My last dog (A GSD) had severe itchy problems as well, I tried Colloidal Silver with him but unfortunately it didn't help at all, although I know a lot of people do have good results with it. I'll have to have a look for the Poly Vite - often products that you guys get over East don't seem to be available here in WA!

[zayda_asher]

There are very strong correlations between vaccination and atopic allergies too. I have some articles on this can can send you if you want.

Dan

[spikey]

There are very strong correlations between vaccination and atopic allergies too. I have some articles on this can can send you if you want.

Dan

Hi Dan

I'd be interested in the articles, although I have to say I have always been a strong advocate of vaccination for both humans and dogs! But that's a whole other argument that people can get into

You've obviously been through the elimination diet bit - did you just start reintroducing a single food at a time to see what reaction there was? And for foods that your dog was allergic to, how long did it take after giving them that food before there was a allergic reaction?

Thanks

Julie

[zayda_asher]

Hi Dan

I'd be interested in the articles, although I have to say I have always been a strong advocate of vaccination for both humans and dogs! But that's a whole other argument that people can get into

I'm not totally against vaccination, I believe that we chronically over vaccinate though. There are very compelling reasons not to vaccinate allergic dogs!! PM me a postal address and email and I will post to you (I can email some, but one I only have in hard copy). This stuff all came from personal correspondence with Dr. Jean Dodds who is a top immunologist in the States and has done a lot of work on vaccination.

You've obviously been through the elimination diet bit - did you just start reintroducing a single food at a time to see what reaction there was? And for foods that your dog was allergic to, how long did it take after giving them that food before there was a allergic reaction?

Yep! You put them on the novel protien, normally for about 4 weeks or so to see if they settle. Then start reintroducing foods one by one (completion of testing time obviously depends on how much variety they had in their diet). How quickly they react will depend on the sensitivity of the dog, but you keep them on the food for 7 days, if by the end of 7 days there is no reaction it is safe to assume they are not allergic. My girl, Zayda, is a very quick reactor. If she gets a kibble sized piece of food and it has something she is allergic to in it she will be itching by that night or the next morning.

Hopefully you hear about the blood test results soon!! Good luck and let us know!

Cheers,

Dan

Edited May 22, 2006 by zayda_asher