Scope Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 i know this gets brought up a lot and there are a lot of threads on it, but goddamn it's confusing trying to sift through to find them all, and then actually find the concentration to read through them all when you know you've got pages and pages to wade through... i find i can follow threads as they progress but tend to get bogged down and sidetracked if i come onto something after it's finished... anyway, i have quite a lot of questions to ask about training my rotty... i have been doing K9's triangle of temptation with him, he had allready been taught previously to drop and look at his handler for his food, and i had continued that with him, but then started the triangle exactly as K9 has said... straight away he was dropping and looking at me for his food... and now i am working on increasing time that i can hold him... we've also been working on him having to sit and watch me before he's allowed into the car/ute... i had been doing this intermittently before but now am doing it every time... he's nowhere near as good at this as he is with his food... but is getting better... he loves to go for trips in the vehicles and has the routine with both of them well and truly down pat... and knows he's not allowed out of either without having his muzzle put on... we're also working on him having to look at me while in a sit/drop/stand before we heel off, or before he gets a release... he is getting lots of pats and praise and/or a release for his reward... and corrections for showing too much interest in whatever distraction is around... however i really want to start teaching him to work in prey drive, as now i have a car and my P's i want to start taking him out as much as i can, 3-4 nights a week if i'm able to, to various obedience clubs and training schools... the places i'm going to are happy to have him and know he has issues, and i know that he will eventually get better as he settles into the environments and learns he wont be hurt there... but i figured we could prolly move things ahead in leaps and bounds if i can focus the drive he allready has... thing is i really have no idea of what a "safe" prey toy to use for 50kg's of angry rotty would be... i dont want to lose an arm while we're working on this :P i also dont know if it would be possible to use a prey toy with a muzzle on him... at present i dont trust him in public without it... i can handle him pretty well but dont want to take the chance of him accidentally getting away from me one day... as he's not gunna let go of whatever he grabs onto... :/ we tried to fill a tennis ball with magnets with the idea of having it 'stick' onto the end of his muzzle, so he could still fetch it, but we couldnt get the tennis ball to reliable stay on the end of the muzzle, and gave up on the idea... once i've found a suitable toy i'm going to start off with K9's method of the tie-out, 3 times a day for 3 minutes... i think it was for 3 weeks? (i have been reading lots of old threads and getting confused :P ) the things i wanted to ask with that are - by letting the dog 'capture' the item, are you simply letting it take it off you, or are you playing a game of tug with it? if it is simply letting the dog take the item, how the hell do i get it off him again? would i start playing with another identical item? also, K9 says the force is strong in this one (so to speak :P ) and that he allready has a lot of drive... would i need to spend the full 3 weeks developing it? or is a shorter period acceptable? and with the prey drive 'switch on' word, as i want to eventually move to bitework etc with my boy later, should i make the prey command the same as the command i want for bitework later? or should it be something completely separate? the main problems i have here are because of my boy's muzzle... and my (completely warranted) fear of him grabbing a hold of my arm instead of his prey toy... we dont do any playing at home at all, i got the tennis ball out a few times when i first had him, but the games didnt go real far, as he'd chase his ball, spend 10mins finding it in our backyard jungle, then bring it back to me and stand beside me chewing on it for a while, before eventually dropping it... and half the time i was never quick enough to pick it up before he got it again... he does not have access to any toys in his pen, either... he is also a food nut and though i know this would be a very good reward for him i dont really want to use it as he's going to have to be at the stage one day where there is no food involved at all... and i'm guessing that starting him on it and then weaning him off it would be more of a headache than just not using it... i am rambling a lot and have prolly asked a few of these Q's before (but stupid me has gone and forgotten :P ) so sorry if i'm annoying... lol looking forward to people's responses as to how i can go about this with my boy... thanks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 one of K9s first things to learn is that there is a rule in training time before distance before distractions so untill you have the time and distance forget going to the clubs, as everything there is too much of a distraction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 (edited) If you are concerned about your dog accidently biting your hand, which is valid, buy an industrial strength glove. The dogs learn quickly not to accidently bite, and as your timing becomes better, the problem resolves. The questions you have asked, which I am sure K9 force will answer, are exactly what I pondered 12 months ago. Encouraging me to buy many Schutzhund productions which show training in drive, to expand my knowledge, after K9 forces seminar. Personally I found my dogs, every so often, would loose focus with multiple drills I require. It is soooooo easy to regain their focus using simple prey drive exercises. The control afterwards is OUTSTANDING. Thanks again K9 for explaining why why why why it works. Edited March 9, 2006 by Lablover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 (edited) S: thing is i really have no idea of what a "safe" prey toy to use for 50kg's of angry rotty would be... i dont want to lose an arm while we're working on this K9: ball on a string or full length bite tug... i also dont know if it would be possible to use a prey toy with a muzzle on him... at present i dont trust him in public without it... i can handle him pretty well but dont want to take the chance of him accidentally getting away from me one day... as he's not gunna let go of whatever he grabs onto K9: dont train him in public until he is reliable... we tried to fill a tennis ball with magnets with the idea of having it 'stick' onto the end of his muzzle, so he could still fetch it, but we couldnt get the tennis ball to reliable stay on the end of the muzzle, and gave up on the idea... K9: good, he needs to bite the ball... once i've found a suitable toy i'm going to start off with K9's method of the tie-out, 3 times a day for 3 minutes... i think it was for 3 weeks? (i have been reading lots of old threads and getting confused ) K9: 7 days per week, 3 times per day, 3 mins per time... Minimum 2 weeks... No other training... the things i wanted to ask with that are - by letting the dog 'capture' the item, are you simply letting it take it off you, or are you playing a game of tug with it? K9: when done right he will earn it... Tug is required with some dogs.. Others just the capture.. if it is simply letting the dog take the item, how the hell do i get it off him again? would i start playing with another identical item? k9: this largley depends on what you want to do... two high value items will cause mouthiness in some dogs... Run the dog in a circle until he drops the item... also, K9 says the force is strong in this one (so to speak ) and that he allready has a lot of drive... would i need to spend the full 3 weeks developing it? or is a shorter period acceptable? K9: In three weeks, you will learn much before you start to develop his bite, like how not to get bit... and with the prey drive 'switch on' word, as i want to eventually move to bitework etc with my boy later, should i make the prey command the same as the command i want for bitework later? K9: I say "ok time to go to work", then give commands in German, including the bite command... All german commands end in drive satisfaction... Dog is turned on ititially by the "lets go to work" then retrigger drive with german commands.. the main problems i have here are because of my boy's muzzle... and my (completely warranted) fear of him grabbing a hold of my arm instead of his prey toy... K9: If he grabs your arm he will drop it & not maul you... we dont do any playing at home at all, i got the tennis ball out a few times when i first had him, but the games didnt go real far, as he'd chase his ball, spend 10mins finding it in our backyard jungle, then bring it back to me and stand beside me chewing on it for a while, before eventually dropping it... and half the time i was never quick enough to pick it up before he got it again... K9: this just takes some handling skills... he is also a food nut and though i know this would be a very good reward for him i dont really want to use it as he's going to have to be at the stage one day where there is no food involved at all... and i'm guessing that starting him on it and then weaning him off it would be more of a headache than just not using it... K9: if your gonna work in prey, train in prey... Nothing wrong with swapping prey item for food if you have to.. Come to SAR workshop & you will learn handling in drive... Edited March 9, 2006 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 ball on a string, a soft toy on a string the ball will be a faster moving object than your hand therefore more interesting to the dog. (well so I think) Regardles of the above couple of days ago I swang the toy somehow close to the elbow, the dog wanted to grab it and got my arm... not intentionally....... it certainly hurts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scope Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 myszka: that definitely makes sense but it just sucks now that i've finally gained my freedom and managed to join up to some clubs... and we've been getting really good with our walks... i dont want to have to confine him to the backyard again for another month or more Lablover: i'm thinking of making myself some heavy leather bracers to protect my wrists and arms, and possibly modifying them so i have protection on the back of my hands as well... i have tried to do various things in gloves before and find it really difficult... thankyou for the suggestion though i'm booked in for K9's next vic workshop... but it's still a few months away... and i want to try to keep training my boy as much as i can in the meantime... maybe i should wait til K9 comes down before i start prey training? i dont know... :/ i have done an NDTF course which has given me a lot of knowledge, but there's still so much i dont know, and i dont want to go off on a half-arsed training venture that may result in more damage than progress, especially with the dog i have, where if i screw up completely and lose his repsect i'm unlikely to ever get it back again... K9: K9: ball on a string or full length bite tug... full length bite tug it is... will have to go find out where to get them... K9: dont train him in public until he is reliable... so is that dont train prey drive in public, or dont train anything in public until i have prey drive sorted out? ie, no walks, no nothing? K9: 7 days per week, 3 times per day, 3 mins per time... Minimum 2 weeks... No other training... but i would still be doing the traingle with him, yes? K9: when done right he will earn it... Tug is required with some dogs.. Others just the capture.. i'm pretty sure he will play tug with me, but i've never tried... i dont know which he would enjoy more though, the tug or just being allowed to have the toy... and what do you mean by 'earn', when i'm just starting out? is showing interest in the toy enough for him to earn it? or must he show a LOT of interest, or what? k9: this largley depends on what you want to do... two high value items will cause mouthiness in some dogs... Run the dog in a circle until he drops the item... i eventually want an operational security/protection dog... and how do i run him in a circle if he's tethered? do i untie him, get the item back, and re-tie him? that's a fair bit of stuffing around it'd be worth it i know but it just seems silly do set him up, let him work for and get the toy (will take maybe 30secs with him to start with i reckon) and then stuff around for 5 mins getting the toy back off him, only to repeat it over again... K9: In three weeks, you will learn much before you start to develop his bite, like how not to get bit... K9: If he grabs your arm he will drop it & not maul you... yeah, but if i can avoid it i dont want to get bit at all... it's a bitch having to stop training because i'm in pain and pissing blood everywhere... i'm not worried about him 'mauling' me, but i have skinny little stick-arms and him grabbing a hold accidently is probably going to result in injury my OH will also become less and less keen on the idea of me keeping him if he bites me again... and my mother would go into hysterics if she knew the scars i allready have are from him, let alone if i get more... she may live in qld but i still have to see her every now and then, and these things dont heal overnight K9: I say "ok time to go to work", then give commands in German, including the bite command... All german commands end in drive satisfaction... Dog is turned on ititially by the "lets go to work" then retrigger drive with german commands.. so... would i have to now re-teach him everything in german? he only understands english so far... K9: if your gonna work in prey, train in prey... Nothing wrong with swapping prey item for food if you have to.. so it's ok to give him a food reward for showing interest in the toy? i seem to recall you have said that it is, but that giving the food reward wasnt actually prey drive? this is the sort of stuff i get really confused on Come to SAR workshop & you will learn handling in drive... iirc it's in sydney and i'm in melbourne thanks for your reply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 i'm thinking of making myself some heavy leather bracers to protect my wrists and arms, and possibly modifying them so i have protection on the back of my hands as well... i have tried to do various things in gloves before and find it really difficult K9: a glove is not bad of an idea, too much gear is a bad idea, it will give him something to bite... Put him on te tie out for 3 weeks, you will develop the skills needs in that time... full length bite tug it is... will have to go find out where to get them... K9: I have them in various lengths right up to full, quality ones that will last. so is that dont train prey drive in public, or dont train anything in public until i have prey drive sorted out?ie, no walks, no nothing? K9: should be dont train anything other than build drive... but i would still be doing the traingle with him, yes? K9: yes, my programs will work together... and what do you mean by 'earn', when i'm just starting out? K9: he makes a big effort to catch the item.... is showing interest in the toy enough for him to earn it? or must he show a LOT of interest, or what? K9: the less he tries the more he captures, the more he tries the less he captures... i eventually want an operational security/protection dog... and how do i run him in a circle if he's tethered? do i untie him, get the item back, and re-tie him? that's a fair bit of stuffing around it'd be worth it i know but it just seems silly do set him up, let him work for and get the toy (will take maybe 30secs with him to start with i reckon) and then stuff around for 5 mins getting the toy back off him, only to repeat it over again... K9: you will be better to wait until Im in Vic, the descriptions I would have to give you would take too long to type & can go very wrong... yeah, but if i can avoid it i dont want to get bit at all. K9: thats the idea.... it's a bitch having to stop training because i'm in pain and pissing blood everywhere... K9: if done correctly, he will really be able to take the arm off, this is tough work, make no mistake... Get used to it.. Protection is about him defeating an attacker, security will mean you will be mixing it up, lil teeth on your skin shouldnt be an issue... i'm not worried about him 'mauling' me, but i have skinny little stick-arms and him grabbing a hold accidently is probably going to result in injury K9: Let me assure you, I have done this thousands of times.... I have all my fingers... my OH will also become less and less keen on the idea of me keeping him if he bites me again... and my mother would go into hysterics if she knew the scars i allready have are from him, let alone if i get more... she may live in qld but i still have to see her every now and then, and these things dont heal overnight K9: there isnt or shouldnt be any aggression in prey training.... remember what your training for could get you hurt much worse than an accidental prey grab, & you may need to work on those arms too... so... would i have to now re-teach him everything in german? he only understands english so far... K9: or have different commands that end in drive satisfaction eg: come = compulsion here = drive... so it's ok to give him a food reward for showing interest in the toy? K9: no absolutely not... we will sort this when Im in Vic iirc it's in sydney and i'm in melbourne K9: dates being released for the Training In Drive & SAR workshop in Vic very very soon..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Scope - I absolutly admire your dedication to his training, I do however read that Huds has some issues, I think there is a long way between now and him not only ignoring his souroundings but being a protection dog. I cant stop thinking to ask K9 if its not too late. Especially after discussions in the Socialisation thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 K9: I havent seen the dog so no good asking me... I have worked with many PPDs with issues, many of them were sorted by aligning the goal of the dog & handler.... Removing the conflict over the prey item etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Cool, I was just wondering. Hey K9 do you want more work? Send you an email re info night/workshop. Ill just take a ticket and wait my turn for you to reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 M: Hey K9 do you want more work? K9: yes great, booked out until end of June, why not make it October lol... Send you an email re info night/workshop. K9: you will send me one or you have sent me one? I havent got it anyway, have 30 left to go through.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 (edited) I have in my emial that I have send already suggested July/August. I will resend, they must be going somewhere into a unknown cyber space that noone ever explores On a second thought - K9 check your spam folder I bet that this is where my emails reside Edited March 9, 2006 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaturallyWild Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 S:i'm booked in for K9's next vic workshop... but it's still a few months away... and i want to try to keep training my boy as much as i can in the meantime... maybe i should wait til K9 comes down before i start prey training? i dont know... :/ Did i miss something along the way - have the seminars been booked or has it only been the private training that was sorted out. I don't wanna miss this. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 K9: Only private consults have been released at this stage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 K9 I've resend, let me know if you got it, or has it gone to spam again? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scope Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 K9: Only private consults have been released at this stage... yeah, but i've told him i want a spot on his workshop/seminar/whatever it turns out to be, come hell or high bloody water :P been busy this arv and gotta get ready to head out again shortly, will have a read through the rest later... thanks again for responses folks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scope Posted March 10, 2006 Author Share Posted March 10, 2006 K9: a glove is not bad of an idea, too much gear is a bad idea, it will give him something to bite... the bracers wont be 'too much gear', just a thick-ish layer of leather that extends up my arm, but doesnt cover as much of my hand, just the back of it... i know this leaves fingers and palm vulnerable but most of the time they're curled in a fist around a lead anyway... hell if i was wearing a long sleeve shirt you'd never even know i had them on... K9: I have them (bite tugs) in various lengths right up to full, quality ones that will last. right, please bring some with you when you come to vic, i WILL buy one of these off you, but i cant find where to order them on your site... :P and would you pls be able to bring down some muzzles that would fit a rott, too... my boy's current steel one is good, but i'd like to try some different ones on him that give his jaw more freedom inside it, and i cant find anywhere really down here that will sell decent ones to the public, they're all crappy fabric or plastic ones K9: should be dont train anything other than build drive... K9: yes, my programs will work together... K9: he makes a big effort to catch the item.... K9: the less he tries the more he captures, the more he tries the less he captures... right, i think i've got all those... K9: you will be better to wait until Im in Vic, the descriptions I would have to give you would take too long to type & can go very wrong... yeah, i'm thinking the same thing now... i'll just keep doing what i'm doing with him til you get down here, as it's slowly working... and then you can show me all the ins and outs of prey training when you're down here K9: if done correctly, he will really be able to take the arm off, this is tough work, make no mistake... Get used to it.. Protection is about him defeating an attacker, security will mean you will be mixing it up, lil teeth on your skin shouldnt be an issue... K9: Let me assure you, I have done this thousands of times.... I have all my fingers... K9: there isnt or shouldnt be any aggression in prey training.... he could probably allready take an arm off if he felt like it... lol and as i said i'm not worried about him 'mauling' me and removing bits of digits... because i know he will most likely just hold and let go again... but it still f***ing hurts, and i'm still going to try to avoid it happening again, or make sure the risk of skin being broken if it does is greatly lessened... and i know there is not meant to be any agression in prey training, but there can still be a good accidental clomping or two :P K9: remember what your training for could get you hurt much worse than an accidental prey grab, & you may need to work on those arms too... yeah, i'm well aware... i've worked security by myself for about 4yrs now... and as for the arms... i'm getting there... shaddup... :P K9: or have different commands that end in drive satisfaction eg: come = compulsion here = drive... right, gotcha, but i'd still need to teach the 'drive' commands out of drive, so he knows what the hell they mean when we start training IN drive? K9: no absolutely not... we will sort this when Im in Vic right... /me sits on hands and tries to be patient :P K9: dates being released for the Training In Drive & SAR workshop in Vic very very soon..... exxxcellent..... *rubs hands together like mr burns* myzska: yes he still does have some issues, and i know we've got a long road ahead before we can even think about starting security training... but i'm trying to find ways of accelerating things while still training him properly... prey drive sounds like it could really help us, but as i keep saying, i dont want to go starting it with only half a clue, because if i screw it up badly enough i'll lose my dog altogether, in more ways than one so i think i might just keep doing what i'm doing for now, and then tie Steve to a chair and interrogate him when he comes down to vic... nyuk nyuk nyuk >;> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 (edited) I'm still learning, but I believe that you only train the drive commands when they are in drive, as eventually the command will put the dog into drive. To train them in other ways negates that purpose. Think of the drive behaviour as a different behaviour to the one you teach out of drive - they might look superficially similar but that's where it ends, the whole basis of the behaviour should be different. Edited March 10, 2006 by sidoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oonga Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Hi Scope, I just wanted to say that it was great to meet you and Hudson the other day at Rottie training. i look forward to seeing any small improvements with him over the coming months, i will try to watch him from the corner of my eye also want you to know that my partner and i have several times mentioned how inspiring it is to see your perseverance and dedication to Hudson. you truly are a good person and we felt really comfortable with your down to earth attitude. Keep up the excellent work you are doing cheers oonga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 S: the bracers wont be 'too much gear', just a thick-ish layer of leather that extends up my arm, but doesnt cover as much of my hand, just the back of it... i know this leaves fingers and palm vulnerable but most of the time they're curled in a fist around a lead anyway... hell if i was wearing a long sleeve shirt you'd never even know i had them on.. K9: You can try it if you like, I have seen people use them & I wouldnt... The dog learns not to bite your skin as when it does, the game stops... Long sleeves got torn off frequently... right, please bring some with you when you come to vic, i WILL buy one of these off you, but i cant find where to order them on your site...K9: Protection gear is ordered off site, but I will bring some he could probably allready take an arm off if he felt like it... loland as i said i'm not worried about him 'mauling' me and removing bits of digits... because i know he will most likely just hold and let go again... but it still f***ing hurts, and i'm still going to try to avoid it happening again, or make sure the risk of skin being broken if it does is greatly lessened... and i know there is not meant to be any agression in prey training, but there can still be a good accidental clomping or two K9: Scope, I have like 20 lady clients doing this at the moment without leather on them, you will manage... yeah, i'm well aware... i've worked security by myself for about 4yrs now...and as for the arms... i'm getting there.. K9: lol... right, gotcha, but i'd still need to teach the 'drive' commands out of drive, so he knows what the hell they mean when we start training IN drive? K9: nope, taught in drive so that the corrections are the dog not earning the item as quick... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now