Help Please!

[baileyb]

My ESS bitch has discovered she can drop while in a sit stay. This only happens when she is in the ring and yesterday she added a new chapter to the story.

By the time I was at the other side of the ring she was down but when it was time to return, she sat back up. Very clever I thought.

Any suggestions please???

[TURBOTERROR]

My ESS bitch has discovered she can drop while in a sit stay. This only happens when she is in the ring and yesterday she added a new chapter to the story.

By the time I was at the other side of the ring she was down but when it was time to return, she sat back up. Very clever I thought.

Any suggestions please???

Does she do this in training at class ? , as if she does you could get the instructor to place her up if she decides to drop .

[PAX]

I used to have this problem with my dog as well. I think that they learn they are there for the long haul so might as well get comfy.

When i thougt about it I found that i wasn't consistant enough with his everyday training. For example; If i was chatting to some one and he was with me on a sit after a little while he would drop and i wouldn't comment because i was chatting. So i was much more careful everyday that a sit was a sit and nothing else. It really made me wonder how well he knew the command sit.

I also went back in my training a bit and made sure i returned before he thought he should get comfy and drop then slowly built the time back up. If your dog is dropping while you back is turned perhaps you could take a mirror with you so you can watch in training as you leave and give a verbal if she starts to look like she is shifting her weight.

It's very frustrating because they haven't actually broken but still failed the exercise. I could write a book on a hundred ways to fail a stay. :rolleyes:

Once my dog rolled around in the grass on a down stay at a trial, never broke just had a lovely time scratching his back. He looked like a horse.

Edited March 6, 2006 by PAX

[baileyb]

Does she do this in training at class ? , as if she does you could get the instructor to place her up if she decides to drop .

Solid as a rock at training but I think she is used to me correcting her now by reinforcing the "stay"before she drops.

Edited March 6, 2006 by baileyb

[TURBOTERROR]

Solid as a rock at training but I think she is used to me correcting her now by reinforcing the "stay"before she drops.

Hmm ok , some dogs do become ringwise after awhile , i now that by experiencing it with my female aussie .

You could try walking away from her and slightly look over your shoulder , and any sign of movement give a immediate " NO!! " ( in a growling tone , but must be sharp ! ), then reinforce the word " stay ! " . As soon as she stops moving go back to her and reward .

Good luck .

Kelly

[Erny]

Additional tips:

1. Ensure the dog's reinforcer for the sit/stay is much higher than the reinforcer for the down/stay.

2. In training, work your sit/stays for considerably longer times than is required in the ring.

[baileyb]

Thanks guys...................will give it all a go.

[TURBOTERROR]

Thanks guys...................will give it all a go.

Good Luck !! please let us know how you go .

Kelly

[MonElite]

Not that I have tried this but I ahve heard that people put small witches hats under the dogs chest, so if the dog tries to lay down they will meet the object.

I personally would also practice a sit stay wiht you in various posotion in various places.

Lets say you lay down face up on the grass and the dog is behind your head.

[Erny]

I personally would also practice a sit stay wiht you in various posotion in various places.

Lets say you lay down face up on the grass and the dog is behind your head.

Good one, Myszka. :rolleyes: Also with you with your back towards the dog. Walking away from and back to your dog (with your back turned). (Use a mirror to help you see what the dog is doing if you don't have a helper). Pretend to talk on a mobile phone (that one OFTEN sees the dogs breaking).

Also, proof the actually "sit" command. Can you give it with your back turned and your dog will comply? Can you give it with your face covered (make sure your command is still clear)?

Not that I have tried this but I ahve heard that people put small witches hats under the dogs chest, so if the dog tries to lay down they will meet the object.

Only thing I see wrong with that picture is the dog pairing the witch's hat with not going into a drop. MIGHT be ok to simply give the dog a win and build on that, but wouldn't be the first option I'd try (IMO). However, whatever works ..... I think I'd prefer to retrace my earlier training steps, though, starting back with shorter distance/shorter time and building to shorter distance/longer time; then longer distance/shorter time; and building to longer distance/longer time.

[FHRP]

Solid as a rock at training but I think she is used to me correcting her now by reinforcing the "stay"before she drops.

Do you mean you are giving her a second verbal stay in training? Or perhaps you are going into the dog and rewarding her in the sit stay before a minute is up? So your training is different to what you do in trials? Is she relying on more than one cue?

Edited March 6, 2006 by FHR

[Guest Tess32]

I had this problem too. Tried a few things and the ONE thing that worked for me I did once. The second he moved his paw to drop during a sit stay I said "NO" loudly enough to make him look up at me which made him move back into a sit, to which I praised. Never really had that problem again...maybe it was my timing.

Nat

[yogibear]

Do you practise sit then drop a lot at club often the dogs just string the two together and though at training your reminding her your not at a trial

Id go back and be more variable in dstance duration and distaction level. and have her do sits while others are dropped and vice versa.

What happens at club if you say nothing to her during the stay will she drop then if so then she needs to go back to basics and rebuild she may think stay is stay but position isnt part of it. Also has she got a sore back maybe she drops out of discomfort. I see a lot of people have trouble with the stays and usually its beause the practise routines for the ring rather than the individual exercises

[baileyb]

Do you mean you are giving her a second verbal stay in training? Or perhaps you are going into the dog and rewarding her in the sit stay before a minute is up? So your training is different to what you do in trials? Is she relying on more than one cue?

I can tell by the look on her face if she is going to drop......she even starts to lick her lips, so she knows she is doing the wrong thing. I yell "sit" and she does. So she must be relying on the second cue to reinforce the sit

But the most frustrating thing is that she is solid 99% outside the ring and 0% inside.

We vary the stay times from "out and back" to three mins.

[Erny]

I can tell by the look on her face if she is going to drop......she even starts to lick her lips, so she knows she is doing the wrong thing. ...

Licking the lips can be a sign of uncertainty/uneasiness ... ????? Is it at all possible that she finds the ring atmosphere a bit overwhelming?

It could be you being a bit anthropomorphic suggesting that her licking her lips is her sign to you of her knowing she's about to do the wrong thing. No offence intended by this, but have you thought about that? IE That you could be assuming a human interpretation for her doggy language to you, and putting your own values on it? If you are, then your clue to what's happening could well be hidden there.

[ness]

Hey,

Ok just a thought from me but from my reading you are using both "stay" for the sit and the drop stay - is this correct? Firstly never practice a sit stay and then a drop stay in training if you want to practice them both break it up and practice something else in between like heelwork or retrieving or whatever?

As for the actual command have you thought about not using a stay command and just building up the duration of the sit or drop command like you would if you had said stay. Some dogs seem to get confused that stay means hold the position and seem to think it really means stay in the one location. I know some people who just use the command sit for sit stays or drop for drop stays. Maybe that might be worth a shot as its clearly differentiated for the dog so they don't get confused. Depending on what sort of length of time your dog will stay in a sit or drop you might have to build it up as you did with a stay.

Hope this helps.

Ness

[hopenfox]

My dog, Fox has a rock solid sit stay and has not once moved during stay training in the last year. He has however dropped twice on a sit stay in trials. Both times his reasons were very clear to me. The first time a dog on one side of him was staring at him, leaning over to sniff him and he just went to pieces. His legs turned to jelly, and he couldn't help sliding into a drop. The second time a large dog with an inconsiderate handler crowded, pushed and shoved him as we filed into the ring for the stays. He was quivering with worry as I went to leave him beside this dog. After taking two steps away from him, he lay down. Except for getting him more used to close scrutiny, and crowding by strange dogs, I don't think there's much I can do to fix these stay breaks.

Hope used to lie down on a stay every now and then, and I've found the best way to train her not to is to return regularly to pop a tasty treat into her mouth and then without saying anything leave again. I alternate the length of time between treats, and I've now found that she not only sits nicely she also alertly watches for me, which I love (she used to sniff the air and the ground and look behind her during stays). She's now in Open and is quite happy to sit for the full 3 minute out of sight stay.

Training like this (returning randomly with treat) also reasures the dog that the handler will always return, which is often the cause of a lot of dog's stress during stays in trials.

[Erny]

Hope used to lie down on a stay every now and then, and I've found the best way to train her not to is to return regularly to pop a tasty treat into her mouth and then without saying anything leave again. I alternate the length of time between treats, and I've now found that she not only sits nicely she also alertly watches for me .....

Hopenfox I work this way too, with some dogs with these sorts of issues. It is an opportunity to teach them that you will return and nice things happen when they hold their sit/stay, (and they're then reinforced for the desired behaviour) rather than you only return when they drop, even if it is to correct the drop back to a sit/stay (where the 'trigger' to get you to return is the 'drop'). This method is particularly good where the dog is lacking confidence at the time.

[pawsaroundoz]

The first thing I would do (have done!) is I never do the 'sit stay' and 'down stay' in the same training session.

To begin with I'd go back to very short sit stays, work up to longer and then full time sit stays. Praising heaps when she does it right! As long as she does the down stay well I wouldn't even worry too much about practising that for a bit.

Another 'trick' to use in practise ring is to leave a hedge-hog style of toy under her front legs, anything that would be a bit of a surprise to 'down' onto!

Hope this helps

Annie