Stan2 Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 I have been reading books on dog training and I find crotesque the use of the choker chain on dogs as a restraint both in training and walking. Is there a regulation against the barbarict act, Im hoping that there could be someway in which this could be stopped or at least not recomended. What does the forum think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TURBOTERROR Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 I have been reading books on dog training and I find crotesque the use of the choker chain on dogs as a restraintboth in training and walking. Is there a regulation against the barbarict act, Im hoping that there could be someway in which this could be stopped or at least not recomended. What does the forum think Check chains are okay if used CORRECTLY!!! , go to a dog training club that teaches you how to use these correctly . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pebbles Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 I've shown big and small dogs on check chains for 50+years and never had an injury or a traumatised dog. As austogo said - used CORRECTLY they are IMO the best type of restraint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgm Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 The check chain is a training tool, it is useless, even counterproductive, as a restraint. As a training tool, used correctly, it is excellent. As a restraining device - useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pebbles Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 Yeah - OK so I used the wrong word - being old and forgetful still cant think of the word!! Collar? Thing around the neck? Lead attachment? Got a case of the dumbs! Always used the chain loose, the slightest touch without actual tightening would get the required response - turn, stop, move, whatever. Wouldn't swap them for quids! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 dont use them dont really like them they take to much good timing for beginners to realy use correctly I have one it keeps the gate shut there good for that lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pebbles Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 Well, I guess it's what a person can manage! Would say that a big percentage of show people use check chains without any ill effects and they're usually very fine chains so the basic training is there as some of the big dogs could easily snap the chain if they got toey. When I first started obed. instructing there wasn't any of the many alternatives (ie gentle leaders etc.) so people were taught to use the chain in the correct manner. I still think it's one of the best training methods when used/taught properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TURBOTERROR Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 Well, I guess it's what a person can manage! Would say that a big percentage of show people use check chains without any ill effects and they're usually very fine chains so the basic training is there as some of the big dogs could easily snap the chain if they got toey.When I first started obed. instructing there wasn't any of the many alternatives (ie gentle leaders etc.) so people were taught to use the chain in the correct manner. I still think it's one of the best training methods when used/taught properly. i use the chain on my male aussie with great results , I use a flat collar with motivational training for my soft tempered female aussie with results ( she currently has a CD title in novice obedience and currently working torwards her CDX ( open obedience ) . They both get shown in check chains . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 Stan there is a big misconception that the use of the chain is to actually choke the dog. Many people here will call it a 'check' chain, not a choker. The point is to give a correction. The slight 'snap' action I give my dog when she misbehaves or pulls lets her know she is not doing the right thing. For her sound and small action of collar movement is the correction. Both my dogs get really excited and sit down with their heads out to have their collars put on when they hear a check chain rattle from a mile away! Cant be that bad now can it? I have a dog that will choke herself if I put a normal flat leather/nylon collar on her as this is how her breed is. Its safer and easier for me to use the chain on her. If the laws were different I would probably use a prong. Pulling the chain till the dog chokes can break the voicebox or the small bones in the dogs throat. There have also been reports where people have yanked so hard that the dogs vessels have ruptured. Pulling that hard is completely couterproductive and cruel to a dog. The point of all training is CORRECTION and never hardcore physical punishment which produces weak and unstable animals. A check chain should NEVER be used for a chained up dog EVER. It was never created as a 'collar' in the traditional sense of the word but as a training device, like a Halti, prong, or harness. Something to be used in controlled training sessions. Yes they can cause harm but only because the owner/trainer has not used it correctly. Then again this goes with everything not just check chains, its the persons ignorance and stupidity that causes the problems not the equiptment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 Pulling the chain till the dog chokes can break the voicebox or the small bones in the dogs throat. There have also been reports where people have yanked so hard that the dogs vessels have ruptured. Pulling that hard is completely couterproductive and cruel to a dog. The point of all training is CORRECTION and never hardcore physical punishment which produces weak and unstable animals. Unfortunately there are still trainers out there who teach that you must yank on that chain very quickly and very hard in order for it to be effective. In fact, they advise that when the dog pulls, you turn quickly and yank real hard on that chain so that it HURTS. They say if you dont hurt the dog, then you are using it wrong and the dog will always pull and choke itself. Cruel to be kind I guess.. I tried one, and was shown what to do, but I wasn't strong enough to use it 'effectively' and it was very upsetting and making me sick doing it. I was told if I didnt have the guts to use it the way it was intended I shouldnt use it. So I stopped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pebbles Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 cactus - The way we were taught way back when was that it wasn't the strength of the handler but the action used at the right time and in the right manner. We had light weight young teenage kids who had little trouble handling a fair sized dog. IMO your instructor really didn't know the correct method or timing. It's a pity the check chain has got a bad reputation through some incorrect instructions as I reckon it's the easiest, quickest, kindest method of training. Will add - along with using the chain there must also be body language. Hard to explain in writing but when we were given demo's of the right and wrong way it was very obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 Pebbles, apart from anything else, the check chain was useless for my needs because the dog was constantly straining at the end of the leash so there was no opportunity to apply a check. It was also removing hair from her throat and the skin was becoming quite raw (from her continual straining/choking herself which I was unable to stop because I couldn't apply a check...) Once she is able to walk perfectly on leash under all circumstances, *then* I might consider one as a collar (but not a chain- I'd go for leather), but I think I'd prefer a martingale anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 Cactus I saw that method when I visited a Dog Obedience Club. It was a complete disaster, they taught to keep a completely slack lead and then when the poor dog didnt do something right yank the poor bugger off its feet. It was disgusting and cruel. There was also some retaliation from dominant dogs against their owners which the trainers told them to 'yank harder you're not doing it right'. A lead is an extension of your arm, and slackness for an untrained dog means no guidence. It was horrible to punish these dogs for doing something they thought was right when no one showed them what to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pebbles Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 (edited) cactus - I know there's a lot of different methods now and I hope things will work out for you. Your dog ending up with a sore neck is awful. We used to deal with pullers, biters, scared dogs, whatever, and I guess because we really only had the check chain to work with, many different approaches were in order depending on the problem. Sheesh - Nekhbet - the chain was never used as punishment but as a training aid along with voice and body language. 'Hard yanks' earned the ire of the instructor. Sure has changed from way back then! Edited March 5, 2006 by pebbles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TURBOTERROR Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 cactus - I know there's a lot of different methods now and I hope things will work out for you. Your dog ending up with a sore neck is awful. We used to deal with pullers, biters, scared dogs, whatever, and I guess because we really only had the check chain to work with, many different approaches were in order depending on the problem.Sheesh - Nekhbet - the chain was never used as punishment but as a training aid along with voice and body language. 'Hard yanks' earned the ire of the instructor. Sure has changed from way back then! I am incorporating " CLICKER TRAINING " now , i am getting results much quicker ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 The way we were taught way back when was that it wasn't the strength of the handler but the action used at the right time and in the right manner. Agreed. Corrections are about technique, not strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackdiamond Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 Hi Choker chains (check chains) which is the correct name because that is all they do if used correctly The idea is to check the dog into the correct position , not choke. Placed on a dog in the correct manner (hanging loose) will not harm the dog in any way until he has to be checked. A lot of top obedience traillers have used this method for many years with great results, However there are some obedience clubs that do frown on them ( they are not totally banned) and encourage newbies to try with a fitted collar or a halter If your club is one of these there is a solution that will keep everyone happy, there is a collar that is 1/2 fitted and 1/2 check ( sorry cant remember its correct name) but the effect of the chain noise and correction is as effiecent Hope this helps Amanda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan2 Posted March 5, 2006 Author Share Posted March 5, 2006 Thankyou all for the forums response to the CHECK CHAIN, I have observed the different opinions and have found it very informative. I now tend to err on the side of caution and will not use the check chain unless I find it necessary under proper instruction, of course who can give proper instructions as it seems some handlers have been giving bad advice. And that can happen in any situation in life. My only retort to it all is that I as a human wouldnt like my neck to be used by a check chain for any reason so if I wouldnt like it I'm sure that our animals wouldnt like it either. But I have to agree they should be used properly. If I can control an animal with word/hand commands such as sit, stay, heel etc I and I say I see no need of Check chains.... Im tending to lean to clickers but have to admit I havent used one yet but am looking at them. thankyou once again to your responses as Im new to DOL its great to hear all opinions and I am learning a lot from other more experienced handlers. Dol is the greatest thankyou. stan the man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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