Fear Agressive Towards Other Dogs

[LuvMyBC]

Winnie BC X Kelpie is fear agressive towards other dogs, and i have been taking her to obedience classes to curb this habit as i really didn't want her to be lunging at other dogs.

But i've been thinking.... I mean it isn't a major problem for me, so what if she doesn't like other dogs? She gets along with our JRT and Lab perfectly, so there is no issue there.

Taking her to training has made me realise that i'm not going to lose sleep over her problem, if she learns to like other dogs - thats great. If she doesn't want to like other dogs - thats fine with me!

I have started to take her to training with a muzzle on, and then taking it off while we are having the lesson so she doesn't associate training as a bad thing, and so as long as other dog's aren't in danger of getting hurt by Winnie, i feel really comfortable with her behaviour.

I just wanted to express how i felt about her fear agressive behaviour, and i've realised that i really don't mind if she doesn't get along with other dogs!

Thanks for listining to my personal thoughts :D comments welcome.

[Greytmate]

There is a difference between not liking other dogs, and fear agression.

If a dog is fearful and aggressive, it is not a happy dog, it is a very upset and distressed dog.

I do not understand why the wearing of a muzzle would make your dog associate training 'as a bad thing', especially if it is comfortable about wearing a muzzle at other times.

Does this mean that you will not be taking your dog out in public anymore, just in case you come across another dog?

[baileyb]

I tend to agree with Greymate in relation to the difference between not liking other dogs and fear aggresion.

It's a problem you need to deal with, not only for your dog but also for you. It is hard dealing with a dog with fear aggresion (trust me I know) but you can help your dog get over it by being really positive when you are training around other dogs and in situations where you dog is uncomfortable.

Dont accept it...................with some hard work you can make a difference.

Its somewhere to start and hopefully it will make life so much easier for you both.

[haven]

I hear what you are saying, but I agree also with the above posts. A fear aggressive dog is not a happy dog, showing that behaviour (for your dog) is extremely aversive (ie not something she enjoys doing). Dealing with an agressive dog takes time, extra effort and patience but you can do something about it!

You should also realise that while muzzling your dog may keep other dogs from being bitten, they are still affected by her behaviour, if she for example was to lunge at and bark/growl at another dog.

If it were my dog I personally would prefer to work on changing the way she felt in the situation (around other dogs) because I believe that she will be a happier dog that way, but at the end of the day you're right, she may never come to 'enjoy' to company of other dogs. That being the case, it is important to communicate to her that she is safe always because you as her pack leader will protect her and that aggression of any kind is not acceptable behaviour.

[LuvMyBC]

Thanks for your comments, they were good to read.

Winnie has a "Safe Distance" established... she only reacts if she is within a few feet of another dog, otherwise she doesn't appear to be bothered. By taking her to training each week i am working on her behaviour (as my enitial post stated) and getting individual attention from the instructors. I have friends who's border collies are also fear agressive, and they had also been trained to curb the habit, but still have the same behaviour after so many years.

I do take Winnie in public, but avoid other dogs. She isn't agressive if she has her "safe distance", which she always has when i walk her.

It's going to be a long journey ahead for both me and Winnie, so we will see how it all pans out within time

[haven]

Thanks for your comments, they were good to read.

Winnie has a "Safe Distance" established... she only reacts if she is within a few feet of another dog, otherwise she doesn't appear to be bothered. By taking her to training each week i am working on her behaviour (as my enitial post stated) and getting individual attention from the instructors. I have friends who's border collies are also fear agressive, and they had also been trained to curb the habit, but still have the same behaviour after so many years.

I do take Winnie in public, but avoid other dogs. She isn't agressive if she has her "safe distance", which she always has when i walk her.

It's going to be a long journey ahead for both me and Winnie, so we will see how it all pans out within time

You're right, it is a long journey, but one that will be very rewarding for both of you in the long run. You have already begun in recognising and working to your dogs critical distance, a very important step

[Alison]

While I understand what you are saying, please be aware that other people's dogs do get loose and you may come across them while out walking. If a dog was to come closer than Winne's safe distance than you need to know how to best avoid a fight. Even though the dog is loose and you are doing the right thing by keeping Winnie on lead, if Winnie hurts or kills the other dog, both you and Winnie will be held responsible. This is something that I hate, although I am doing the right thing having my fear aggressive dog on lead and avoiding places with other dogs, sometimes we come across stray or loose dogs. It is unfair that my dog could be PTS because someone else is being irresponsible and their dog is loose. This alone is a good reason why you should continue working on Winnie's fear aggression. Good luck, yes it is a long hard journey, but as Haven said, it can also be extremely rewarding.

[pampa]

In all the time I've been on DOL, this is the first time I've visited this training forum

I know there must be hundreds of threads on "fear agression" and how to "handle" it, but could someone point me in the right direction and for starters tell me exactly what fear agression actually is ?...

[Erny]

Hi Pampa. It's late, but I'll have a bash at offering an interpretation of "fear-aggression".

It is an act initiated by the dog in an attempted maneovour to either avoid or control a situation of which it is uncertain/uncomfortable.

I'm not sure, exactly, if that's what you were looking for by way of answer, but I will add that the greater percentage of aggression 'we' see out in the field (ie where the aggression is addressed to dogs/people where there is no social relationship) is "fear aggression". Even dogs exhibiting body language that would commonly dictate 'dominance' may actually exhibit that, because they're confident their aggressive tactics will achieve their goal (this is learnt over time, and is why it is most beneficial to prevent the behaviour from occurring, as part of the behavioural modification treatment), even though their fear of the situation has not ebbed. True dominance aggression is quite rare by comparison.

Ummmmm..... is this the sort of answer you were looking for?

[pampa]

I'm sorry for hijacking the thread here ...

Thank you Erny for your explanation....

LuvmyBC says in her original post that her girl lunges at other dogs...

When on a lead and in the car, my boxer lunges, growls, spins on the spot, scratches the pavement with his back feet and is a general ass...

When he isoff-leash though, he tends to "attack" (run at the dog and push into him/her) but if the other dog doesn't react, my boy settles down and then plays...

In the beginning I got angry at his reactions and that just made him worse...

Now I reassure him and he reacts a bit better. Could this be fear agression ?...

[Erny]

Difficult to tell, Pampa, from the small amount we know here. I wonder if it stems from your boxer initially not knowing how to properly interact with/approach other dogs and this behaviour has become learnt (and exaggerated along the way)?

What we're missing is a realllllly detailed history (including body language description of early day meetings with other dogs), as well as being able to observe the body language of your dog in the lead up to the 'meeting'.

Have you tried 'breaking' the initial behaviour by throwing in 'sit' commands along the way to approach ..... would your boy listen? Or is he in a bit of a state by then? If you did this, and your boxer was up fairly close before 'greeting', would he present a bit calmer?

IMO, I would not offer "re-assurance" for the behaviour being displayed - but that's easy for me to say as I'm not there, can't see the dog (therefore don't recognise any improvement on the boxer's 'normal' behaviour in these instances etc.). Just be careful about what you're reinforcing. That's where I'd rather seek a 'sit' - which breaks the attention and sometimes the 'tension'. Then offer the reassuring/encouraging 'speak'. (That way, you're reinforcing the sit behaviour and not accidently reinforcing the other 'over the top' behaviour.) Do this each time you recognise his behaviour as escalating beyond controlled calm ... but don't wait until the excitement level becomes impossible to compete with. This might mean you sit after each step. The other dog might be gone by then :rolleyes:, so it might help if you can ask other dog handlers for their help (and patience). Lord knows, that what I used to do. I used to feel guilty about taking up so much of their time, but generally they were very happy to help and, I think, felt quite good that they were chosen to assist.

ETA: Working your dog into drive is a great way to get your dog closer to a 'stimulus' ... and then away again, if necessary, without the dog's focus being on the stimulus itself. Sure - you want the dog to orientate to the other dog, but working that drive maintains focus towards you. Check out the K9 Force threads on the subject of "drive" in the Training Forum. If you haven't already read it, you'll find some really helpful stuff in there that is worthwhile following and working with. And that counts for you, too, LuvMyBC.

Edited March 6, 2006 by Erny

[baileyb]

Thanks for your comments, they were good to read.

Winnie has a "Safe Distance" established... she only reacts if she is within a few feet of another dog, otherwise she doesn't appear to be bothered. By taking her to training each week i am working on her behaviour (as my enitial post stated) and getting individual attention from the instructors. I have friends who's border collies are also fear agressive, and they had also been trained to curb the habit, but still have the same behaviour after so many years.

I do take Winnie in public, but avoid other dogs. She isn't agressive if she has her "safe distance", which she always has when i walk her.

It's going to be a long journey ahead for both me and Winnie, so we will see how it all pans out within time :rolleyes:

Hope all goes well for both of you.

Happy training!!

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: It is worth taking a look at the whole picture here... Curbing the "behaviour" will be reducing the aggression, that leaves the fear un dealt with.

Whilst you understand her distance of reaction, or critcal distance, you need to be aware that she is in fear mode long before that & this stress will cause more harm than the training will provide.

I would suggest that you look into a desensitization program for your dog.

Remember that each time your dog reacts & shows aggression, the worse the problem is becoming because it has just been reinforced one more time as a successful behaviour to protect against other dogs.

[sas]

Luv My BC,

Your thread is kind of upsetting, however that is because my fear aggressive boy was put down on Saturday, fear aggression wasn't his only issue but I would reccomend that you see an experienced trainer/behaviourist such as Steve at K9 to assess a dog and work out a program for you because these things don't get better on their own they get worse and it can happen quickly.

I would take any kind of aggression issue very seriously and see a behaviourist before it even gets the chance to turn into anything more serious.

[Kelpie-i]

Sas, LuvmyBC is already acquiring the services of qualified behaviourists and instructors and we are working with her every step of the way to help the situation. Winnie has improved since coming to training but she still has some way to go. Winnie's handler is receiving one-on-one assistance to ensure she is doing everything correctly.

LMBC, my only advice to you is to NOT GIVE UP!. The process of desensitisation is a long one and can certainly vary from dog to dog and situation to situation. Changing the dog's feelings around whatever it sees as being scary is not easy and it takes an owner's persistence and confidence to make it work.

As long as Winnie sees you as a competent leader, then she will learn to trust YOUR judgement.

[LuvMyBC]

Thank you kelpie-i.

I am going to continue to take Winnie to training as she really does love going, and i like it too

What confuses me is that she has good days and bad days... for instance 2 weeks ago when we were doing socialisation, she didn't seem bothered and really liked it. but other times she doesn't like being that close to other dogs.

Anyway, all i can do is continue to bring her to be socialised, and listen to what is being said to me to help her.

I do appreciate the one on one help at training, and all of the advice that is given to me.

[Kelpie-i]

LMBC

Sometimes dogs have off days and set backs can often occur during the desensitisation process - you need to be aware of this and be prepared for them.

Soon, the "good" days will start to outweigh the "bad" days and you'll see less and less of the fearful Winnie.

As long as you continue to enjoy training, then Winnie will feed off this and as you say Winnie enjoys going to training, then at least that is one problem you don't need to worry about.

Keep up the good work and don't give up!