TwinSpirits Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Im going to try to explain this as best I can, I want to train Flossie without using any form of food, I have tried training her with toys but she just isnt interested and I dont know what is more motivating for her, she seems to live eat breathe for food, she is very very food motivated to the point that if she sees or smells food nothing else matters but how to get to the food, this is a bit of a problem going past the cats bowls and out in public because she sometimes happens to have nose to ground pulling on the leash trying to get food off the floor, not behaviour wanted in a service dog. If she cant see or smell treats on me, she just wont do the behaviour I ask of her, I want her to be more focused on me than anything else and I dont know how to get her focused on me and what could be more rewarding than food to her, or if I can make something be more rewarding in some way? also, she searches for ages in the house on the floor for food and Id like that to stop but dont know how, Id like her not to be searching for treats all the time, its not like she isnt fed enough or anything. I hope this made sense. Tristan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 lol I know what you mean I have heard that clicker training is good I think you can start with food then go to no food which may help you out I have been contemplating using it myself and am starting to read up on it - there are lots of websites on it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwinSpirits Posted February 28, 2006 Author Share Posted February 28, 2006 I already clicker train Flossie, but I want to be clicker training her without treats now not later. Tristan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Hey Tristan, You can still use treats. The idea with clicker training is that the food is a reward NOT a bribe. The dog should work regardless of whether the food is there or not. If you don't always use food what you need to do is write down a list of things that Flossie finds rewarding. My BC is the exact same and is all food driven but with a bit of work I can get her to play tuggy and accept that as a reward under some circumstances. You can use other things like the opportunity to have an explore off-leash, going out a doorway etc etc. What you really need to teach Flossie is doggy zen rather than necessarily totally do away with using treats. There is a brilliant clicker training approach to this written up by Sue Ailsby http://www.dragonflyllama.com/%20DOGS/%20Dog1/levels.html Her section on Zen is: http://www.dragonflyllama.com/%20DOGS/Leve...rs/TL26Zen.html. You can also have a look at her puppy training diary of Stitch who is her self clicker trained service dog. http://www.dragonflyllama.com/%20DOGS/%20Dog1/Blog.html If you want to know anything more let me know. There is also a yahoogroup attached to that where you can post questions as to the levels of which Sue herself is an active member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwinSpirits Posted February 28, 2006 Author Share Posted February 28, 2006 Hey Tristan,You can still use treats. The idea with clicker training is that the food is a reward NOT a bribe. The dog should work regardless of whether the food is there or not. If you don't always use food what you need to do is write down a list of things that Flossie finds rewarding. My BC is the exact same and is all food driven but with a bit of work I can get her to play tuggy and accept that as a reward under some circumstances. You can use other things like the opportunity to have an explore off-leash, going out a doorway etc etc. What you really need to teach Flossie is doggy zen rather than necessarily totally do away with using treats. There is a brilliant clicker training approach to this written up by Sue Ailsby http://www.dragonflyllama.com/%20DOGS/%20Dog1/levels.html Her section on Zen is: http://www.dragonflyllama.com/%20DOGS/Leve...rs/TL26Zen.html. You can also have a look at her puppy training diary of Stitch who is her self clicker trained service dog. http://www.dragonflyllama.com/%20DOGS/%20Dog1/Blog.html If you want to know anything more let me know. There is also a yahoogroup attached to that where you can post questions as to the levels of which Sue herself is an active member. Hi thanks for your advice. I already know all this, and Im on sue's list already but I havent found it helpful, there are reasons why I want to do away with treats altogether. And I have taught Flossie zen, but it doesnt help with what Im wanting to achieve here. I really dont know how to explain it another way right now, Im sorry if Im not being clear. Tristan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Flossie sounds like the PERFECT dog to train WITH food! Remembering that we do not define what the dog finds rewarding, the DOG does. Although you said she was not toy motivated, have you looked at K9 Force's threads on training in drive? He explains how to build drive and desire for the toy so it becomes a motivator. May be worth a look. Is there anything else Flossie likes? In order for food to not become a distraction, you can use it to teach focus on you. Use a clicker or not (I've read and seen how to do it with a clicker, but with Diesel I used food delivery from my mouth. Sounds a bit gross but it does work!) . But if you can teach attention and she knows food comes from you, not other people or the environment, then she will do anything for you to get the reward. Even Zoe, who is dog aggressive, will now look at me automatically if we go past another dog (at a distance) instead of looking at the dog, as she knows her reward only comes from attention to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Fair enough Tristan - not totally sure I understand where you are coming from but I guess your entitled to have your opinion. I am surprised that Sue's list isn't helpful to you I got lots of help on there but don't read it all that frequently these days because of a lack of time. Ness lives for food in much the same way Flossie does, if there is a crumb on the other side of the oval given half a chance she would find it. While Ness is not a service dog she is a herding breed and she has learnt that just because there is food there it isn't necessarily for her taking (well some of the time, other times I really don't care as its not an issue with her). Frequently when training now I'll leave an entire bowl of food on the ground and work her and then release her and go and reward from the container. It you work through the food zen process then I doubt you would have a problem with Flossie - I don't have the incentive so I haven't fussed to much. All the best with it. Ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glorybea Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 HI Ness , can I but in here please when you said you are using food with your dog for dog aggression is that done through the desenstiization training towards dogs which I started today ,or did you use another method ???? Glorybea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwinSpirits Posted February 28, 2006 Author Share Posted February 28, 2006 ok, thanks again for the replies, I need to explain things clearly. I get Flossie to the point where I know she knows what I want but I cant get her off the food thinking mode. I cant always have food treats available, especially when training at the shops, I have my cane in one hand, her leash in the other and the hand her leash is in does the hand signals. also, I need to teach her to ignore food in all situations as part of the public access test will be a plate of food on the floor in front of her and she will have to ignore the food totally. I have posted questions on the training levels list and not gotten replies so I dont really see it as a good source of information for me, though sues levels is a good goal thing for me to work towards with Flossie. I still in all preference would like her rewards to be non food based. She does like toys and does bring them to me sometimes, but she hasnt made the connection that the toy is the reward. The only other thing I can think that Flossie might find rewarding is jumping around and barking which would probably get complaints in public. She does have a very very high prey drive and if I can incoporate that into her training it would be useful but Im not sure how. I hope this is clearer in some way? Tristan P.S. I hope I didnt seem rude before, reading it again it sounds rude to me and Im sorry if it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glorybea Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Hi Ness a follow on from the above post -- I just looked up my notes and you were one of the people who gave me the advice -- so I thought I wuold let you know I have started and will keep you imformed to progress . Glorybea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Look up K9 Force's Training in Drive - that way you can utilise her prey drive and use that as a reward instead of food! Hopefully someone who is better at searching can bring up the thread He is having a workshop in May - although that may be full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 A couple of things occur to me here. I can see your 'hands full' problem with the cane, leash etc. - just not sure how any other reward (other than genuine verbal praise) is going to be easier to deliver in that situation. (Maybe you need to look at K9 Force's training in 'pack drive' - I'm not sure I really understand training in drive, but pack drive would seem to be what you can work with in that situation.) Teaching the "leave it" is valuable for the food (cat etc,) obsessed dog - again, can be reinforced however you want to. But, I'm getting a bit alarmed here - am I reading your post correctly, and Flossie is still only just over 3 months old? She is still a baby - so maybe you're expecting too much too soon. IMHO if you don't give her time and leeway to be a baby and to grow up at her own pace, more or less, you're creating a potentially stressful situation for both of you. And there's no doubt that stress - on either side - interferes with learning. Don't forget that this early stage is easy compared with the challenges of training with a 'teenager'. There's a good reason why guide dogs get "puppy-walked" for a year - they don't have the mental or emotional maturity for their really serious training until then. Barb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 (edited) Sorry you haven't go much assistance on the training levels list. I can only suggest though what you need to do is to start at home - will she ignore a plate of food at home on the ground. If she can't do it at home then you need to start there and gradually extend it when she is out. She is after all only a puppy. Plate of food on floor for assistance dog test just sounds like food zen which you said she could do. Intense concentration to a task is something that is developed over a period of time. I haven't trained a service dog before. If she has prey drive are you able to teach her tug (not sure if that might be a problem for you). Then you start with something simple once she is tugging, for instance ask her to sit and reward with a tug. Have you also thought about conditioning something like a toy to food. As in pairing a bit like a clicker so eventually the toy becomes a reward. Is this of any help? ETA I can see that I was on the same wavelength as Tassie Ness Edited February 28, 2006 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 K9 Force also has what is called the 'triangle of temptation' which would help with ignoring food - teaches the dog to look to you before it is allowed to eat. That might also be helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwinSpirits Posted February 28, 2006 Author Share Posted February 28, 2006 Im not training Flossie in anything serious yet, just to sit, down leave it and walk nice on a leash. Im not expecting her to leave food alone right now if its on the floor etc I know she is too young for anything serious like that, would just like for her to pay attention to me for a second to get the hand signal for her to know what Im asking. Flossie isnt getting any intense serious training until she is 18 months old and has had her hips and everything checked. I dont train her for a long time, just about 10 minutes at a time and 2 or 3 times a week in public. I dont feel I want to be defending what I do with Flossie's training, which I feel I have had to do a few times already. I know its difficult to understand me at times I have alot of trouble saying what I mean for people to understand. I think the prey drive may work when Im out in public as she chases the ball on my cane and I may be able to use that as a reward somehow. Tristan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Ok, sorry - I misunderstood what you were trying to achieve at this stage. I'd still think 10 minutes is a bit too long at her age - could you break it up a bit? Have a few very short sessions several times a day. Not trying to be rude here - just trying to clarify your situation. Am I correct in thinking you're going to have to do everything with hand signals with this dog - that is, you're unable to do verbals? If that's right, then I can see the training is going to be much harder than if you can give verbals. On the other hand, since dogs are body language specialists first and foremost, you can probably develop some special hand/body movements that she will find rewarding. Most dogs love hand-clapping - they seem to know it's pretty special - and I guess we're usually happy when we do it. As far as the attention goes, I'd probably be 'free-shaping' that as well as cueing it. Whenever she looks at you, whether you prompted it or not, click and reward her - any way you like - and then give her a release signal - do you have one? If not, I think I'd be trying to introduce one - that says - you can go be a dog again. You should be able to gradually build up the length of time she will hold the focus on you before she gets the click/reward. Oh, I just thought of something I'm doing with my boy that you might be able to do. When he's sitting in front of me, I hold treats in each hand - and clicker in one hand as well. He of course sniffs, licks the nads - but gets nothing until he looks at me - with his nose away from the hands - then click/treat. I'm gradually asking for longer attention on me and away from the treats before he gets the click/treat. You could do this sitting down, I should think. Barb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Hi Tristen. I know this isn't what you asked for, but I tend to agree that, in the absence of a dog being driven by anything other than food, then food IS the dog's motivator. Have you tried training where you spit the food treat from your mouth? This not only leaves your hands free, but also trains your dog to focus to your face, rather than hands. Have you started teaching Flossie "food refusal"? This is where the dog learns NOT to take food UNLESS she hears her 'eat' command, as opposed to NOT taking food BECAUSE she's been told not to (ie "leave"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunsoar Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Hi Tristan, I have absolutely zero experience with training dogs, but I'm sure that I read on this forum somewhere that in order for a toy to be a motivating factor that it needed to be owned by you as the Alpha. As in, you only bring it out at certain times and then put it away as well so she has no access to it in the meantime. I just noticed that somewhere you wrote that Flossie would bring you a toy at certain times. Maybe if you had a special toy that she loves but is only used in training? As I said, absolutely no experience Good Luck with your training. Sunsoar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latisha Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Heya dude, I think if Flossie has a high prey drive, it sounds like you need to work on building it a bit and then train to focus. In order to utilise prey drive, from what I understand there has to be a fair bit of movement in the prey item. Maybe there is not enough movement in it? As she is only 3 months old, maybe you can still use food in conjunction with prey drive but rather than using it as a reward, use it as a training method teaching focus. Not sure what age for a working puppy you should stop using this though. I am just saying the above in theory though, haven't had much experience yet. I would recommend maybe PMing K9 as he is the master in this stuff. Just a tip that might work in the meantime if you don't want to carry the treats, rub them in a hanky and put it in your shirt. You probably won't be able to smell it probably but Flossie will and depending where you put it, it may make her look at you. Good luck and let us know what happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Regarding not working unless she can see or smell food on you. This is something I've seen often. One way to get around this is to get the food off your person. Stash it around the training area in containers (sealed). You can "bridge" between the reward marker and getting the food, like "good doggie here we go let's get the reward" (excited) while you get it. For the other, the dog needs to know that you control the food and when it gets it, and not it. Work with this as she matures. The triangle of temptation, already mentioned, is as good a programme for this as any I've seen. Basically, the appearance of food doesn't mean that the dog gets the food - it only happens when you say so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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