phatdex Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 You might have missed the point that sch training is 90% individual. You turn up for a class there is no class, no group. All dogs are locked up, one is out being trained. That one finishes, the next one is out.Lets say there are 10 dogs to train, 15 minutes each, do the maths how long will it take and if you are last how long do you wait for your turn.... I meant the handlers. They will be learning and training just by watching others. But no use in even watching if ur dog cant have a go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chell Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 Biting down on the sleeve is important but it is also about placement of that bite and the ability to hold on to it both physically and mentally. and that bite needs to be full and calm. A dog that is not confident will have a bity grip, meaning they try to chomp on it in an attempt to hold on to it and its feeling very stressed. A good helper and handler has the ability to take this stress away and give confidence to the dog. To the untrained eye a dog may appear to have the moves and the bite down pat but truly there is so much more to this part of the sport than people realise and i would advise against anyone trying to train their dog in the sport on their own without experienced guidance. Even with a puppy if you present the prey item the wrong way you wont build drive or satisfaction for it. Depending on the level of drive you need to adjust the ratio of success it has with capture. Clubs that want to remain affiliated with AUS need to trial its dogs and handlers to maintain that affiliation and be recognised. So for the success and future of the clubs we need to train dogs that can trial under existing rules. Im sure if the rules were different many clubs would enjoy a wide variety of breeds if these breeds also had the genetics behind them to do the work. But it goes back to my point if you arent going to compete will you fine tune the training to the same degree that you HAVE to if you are going to compete. I could go on and on about the finer points that would let you down in a trial that you spend months and months and even a year working on but that would be pointless here. many of my clubs new members try it out for the 6 weeks trial period and dont come back. Im not being a snob here but agree totally with LMWS it is one of the most serious sports you can do, so hence all the rules and regulations. And compared to other countries Australia is in its infancy with the sport compared to the likes of Germany and the US. So maybe in time things might change. Another reason the clubs tend to be protective of the sport is because of the degree of misinformation that there is about it. If we dont follow the rules we will pay the price for it. It can be likened a bit to BSL. People dont understand it, they spread misinformation and it gets a bad reputation just like some dog breeds so there fore we have to toe the line and follow the rules to the letter in order to protect ourselves, just as owners of targeted dog breeds try to ensure their dogs are in the hands of responsible owners who have the best intrests of the dog and the community at heart. Also, we all like to think that our dogs breed has what it takes to do anything, but reality is they dont. Genetics plays a huge part. My breed is Rottweiler and yes they are an allowed breed but he comes from long successful working lines on one side and show lines on the otherside ( so we do both sport and conformation with him). I am lucky his fathers working drives came out so well in him but it has still been a lot of hard work, however you can only bring out a dogs drives to its genetic potential, if its not in the lines behind your dog you wont get it. His drives, defense, nerve and even his bite and grip are genetics. we are on the search at present for a working partner for my husband, if we were to choose a rottie without working ability behind it we would have a snowflakes chance of any success with her. So I hope I have highlighted here that it isnt just the RULES that play a part in participation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatdex Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Great post Chell. Definately shows why clubs wont let other breeds participate. Still dont think there is a real excuse for the comp rules tho. But as some have said, those ARE the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldogz4eva Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 well there not going to get experience sitting back and handling only 3 breeds of dog... Exactly. Like Chell said, there are numerous clubs out there open to all breeds if you wish to do Obedience or Tracking.. Thank god it's only limited to particular breeds, if it's thought of as the "Attack Dog Sport" i can only imagine how many drop kicks (not directed at u Bex) would be turning up with their dogs in the hope of getting their dogs "attack" trained.. !! If people want a better understanding on the sport they'll do some research, and realise its not an attack dogs sport.. I think most people are aware there are many clubs out their doing obedience and tracking but this is not schutzund is it and that is what we are talking about.Why do you thank god its only limited to certain breeds?Seems to me your inference is that miscreants only own a certain breed and its that type of attitude that we are referring too.There are irresponsible owners in every breed of dog.There are plenty of people that turn up at schutrzund clubs wwho want their dog attacked trained Im sure and these are the people who should be turned away.It doesnt matter what breed of dog they own.Im sure some of them have slipped under the radar as well becuase they own the right breed. Schutzhund's 3 phases of trialling test and evaluate the dogs mental stability, endurance, physical soundness, scentwork, work ethic, courage and trainability.. These characteristics are the core of any WORKING DOG breed standard.. hence, why it's a working dog sport! I would have thought that was obvious.Your point is? What were German shepherds origianlly bred for?They werent just bred for the sport of schutzund now where they. if you dont like the rules of the game go play your own Its all fun and games until someone loses an eye isnt it Jeff.Without appropriate supervision accidents will happen. You know, a bull breed lover told me they were bred to be animal aggressive. Regardless of whether its towards people or other animals, it is a dog bred for aggressive traits.. How can a dog, bred to be aggressive, have the mental strength to cope? Why would you want to teach/encourage a breed bred for aggression to bite?? Funny, 90% of those that complain about not being able to do Schutzhund in Australia, own Bull Breeds.. ?? *disclaimer* i know nothing about bullbreeds, only going by what i was told by a bullbreed owner A lot of dogs were breed for differing reasons hundreds of years ago, so what?Thats not what the majority of them are bred for now.Why is it you think that bull breeds dont have the mental strength to cope.That is laughable.It is quite of obvious from your ignorance that you know nothing about bull breeds.There are American bulldogs being used by Police Departments in the US as police dogs.Boston is one of them.Dont take my word for it have a look on the net.Do you think they would be using them if they werent stable enough?They use them because they are versatile and trainable and can do everything any other breed of dog can.Do you know 90% of the people that complain do you or what dogs they own? I hear no one on here saying, but oh, my dog shows a natural tracking ability, or , my dog does is very responsive to obedience training... Those not happy on here that own a breed not allowed at Aussie Sch Clubs seem to continually go on and on and on about the "bite" stuff.. It doesn't look good... My dog does show natural tracking ability and with one of them I was doing schutzund,not at a club but with a guy that used to be in the club and who is a responsible and capable trainer.The dogs did not get a bite for months.He assessed the dogs on their merits.I have obedience trained every dog I own.I am a member of an obedience and agility club.Where did people go on and on about bite stuff.Maybe you need to re read the posts.Nowhere did I mention it in my posts and phatdex maybe a reference to his dog.One statement. Schutzhund people do not do it "because it's fun".... Yes they do or why would they do it.If its to boost their ego's like some show people who have no lives then maybe they should find another sport because they are there for the wrong reason. dont see why schutzhund which has been in australia for almost 20 years should have to change to suit people, if schutzhund rules and regulations dont suit you...dont do it Thats fair enough Jeff but when I was a kid I was taught to question things not just accept them becuase I am not a sheeep. It is not breedism.. It is for dogs bred to work in this manner.. Those breeds are known for their ability to work, known for stable temperaments and a good "on/off" switch to be able to deal with bite work.. This is as a "whole.." Not just individual dogs.. yes, an APBT may be able to do it, but because it can, it doesn't make the "whole" breed suitable.. There are plenty of shepherds that arent suitable for it either.If a breed of dog has been used in the sport for many years obviously there will be lines that are suitable,if dogs are excluded they can never reach that point.There are plenty of American Staffordshire Terriers doing Schutzund and I can mention the bloodlines that do exceptionally well at it and have done for a long time. Very good post Chell and I agrre with you wholeheartedly that to the untrained eye dogs can appear to be dong well or have what it takes when in reality they are nervy,they are grabbing the end of the sleeve with a half nouth bite at best and trying to back away not pull the sleeve.This is what makes a good handler being able to read the situation and give the dog confidence.I have seen some ordinary handlers doing a good job of ruining a dog.I also advise against people trying to do the training by themsleves with limited knowledge. I understand the commitment and the passion people have for the sport that do it and the rules are the rules thats fine.I hope the sport goes far in this country and one day the doors open up.I also agree with the parallels you draw to bsl because there is a lot of misinformation out there about Schutzhund.I understand that the club has to protect itslef and its members.Lastly I would just like to say as much as I like the sport I would not change breed just to particpate.I love the breeds that I own and wouldnt swap them for the world and if you were in the same situation I wouldnt expect you too so please understand that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 So myszka - you could show and do Schutzhund with a Tervueren? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 i dont know any working tervueren breeders in aus? unless ur counting malinois as tervs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 I would have thought you should go a Mal, but I am a bit biased with Belgians :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 kaviks right couldnt get a better schutzhund dog than a malinois :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 And as couple of you are interested what my decision is I have to say that Im sticking to the dobes. I love the breed, I love the look, I want to have two of them in my house and next to me. I have looked at some websites of working lines dobes (thanks Jeff) and I have to say that sch training will have to be on a backburner for a while.... unless a mirracle happens... I will get a show dobe, I plan on doing competitive obiedience and agility with it. Ahhh, cant have what I want I will settle what what I already know, like and try to excell at that. But becouse miracles happen once in a while my pupp will just by a fluke have some extra prey drive in it and I will give a sch a go Considering that two of the sch dobes in Sydney (i dont know how good are they, and how far did the owenrs taken them) come from the breeder that Im getting my puppy from and are colsely related to the dam of my future pupp, I might just have some luck. If not we will live a happy life of dog shows, trails and rolling from one side to the other on my lounge. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EISHUND Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 (edited) Either i have said something to rub u the wrong way DOGZ, or you are one of those "sensitive" bull breed owners that are dirty that their breed has been excluded from something.. I hope you had fun picking my previous post to pieces.. I think most people are aware there are many clubs out their doing obedience and tracking but this is not schutzund is it You're right, it's not Schutzhund, but people need to accept that rules are in place for a reason.. Chell has explained it wonderfully.. You obviously really wanted to do Schutzhund, so you have sought out a trainer, :D , instead of sitting idle whinging about the rules.. Why do you thank god its only limited to certain breeds? Because, due to the misinformation, poor public perception, false info etc... it limits the amount of peope turning up wanting to join for the wrong reasons.. my statement had absolutely nothing to do with the breeds, purely mathematics.... less people.. lower incidence.. What were German shepherds origianlly bred for?They werent just bred for the sport of schutzund now where they. Never said they were, don't know where you got that info from?? All i said is they are working dog, and Schutzhund is a working dog sport.. Interpret that however you wish... It is quite of obvious from your ignorance that you know nothing about bull breeds. It is quite obvious from your post, "your" ignorance, as i stated in an earlier post *disclaimer* i know nothing about bullbreeds, only going by what i was told by a bullbreed owner.. So congratulations you are correct, however, if you read my other post properly you would of already known that There are American bulldogs being used by Police Departments in the US as police dogs. We all know you can't compare Australia to America, no point.. Like chalk and cheese.. White Shepherds can be registered on main and breed in America :D Not here!! Let them train and have fun with the rest of the group. My reference to "fun" was directed at Phatdex's comment, as i felt he perhaps was not aware what Schutzhund training sessions are about... Myszka explained it perfectly.. What do i call sitting around?? Highly informative and educational yes, but seriously, i can think of better word than something as plain and generalised as "fun." Anyway, suppose i could go on all night referring to every single point in ur post, but i don't feel like i need to justify my comments.. I feel each individual interprets posts differently, none of mine were intended to degrade any breed or group of people.. Edited March 4, 2006 by Luv my White Shepherd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldogz4eva Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 Anyway, suppose i could go on all night referring to every single point in ur post, but i don't feel like i need to justify my comments.. I feel each individual interprets posts differently, none of mine were intended to degrade any breed or group of people.. No and I dont think you did degrade my breed I just wanted to set the record straight.I did seekout a trainer unfortunately due to health problems he isnt able to train anymore so here in the west my options are limited.There are a few people around doing similar training but I wouldnt touch them with a barge pole as I dont want to end up with a problem dog so I would rather not train.I am not so bent out of shape for not beoing able to train as I am with societys views about anything that is not to the liking of the majority.I have gotten used to being a social pariah becuase of the breeds of dogs I choose to own.Its water off a ducks back.I also dont have to justify my comments as there are plenty of responsible bull breed owners out there like myself.Dont worry you didnt offend me I dont get offended easily and I hope you got your dogs back safely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 Doing some quick research I have found out that only gun dogs are eligible to trail in retrieving trails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 Only greyhounds are eligible to compete in greyhound races. People that are serious about a sport will buy a dog that is suited to that sport and will be competitive in that sport. Why should the people that work hard on a voluntary basis (or in a low paid role) for clubs because they are serious about the sport and want to promote excellence in that sport have their time wasted by those that just want to come along and use the resources just to pass the time and have a bit of fun with no end goal in mind? Nobody is saying that anyone can't take any old breed and put it behind a lure, train it to bite a sleeve or bring back a dead duck. Go for your life. The thing is, if you are not serious enough to want to own a breed that is suitable for and competitive in these pursuits, then do it on your own time, on your own land with your own money and resources, instead of making demands on other people to help you do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EISHUND Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 Doing some quick research I have found out that only gun dogs are eligible to trail in retrieving trails. Only greyhounds are eligible to compete in greyhound races.People that are serious about a sport will buy a dog that is suited to that sport and will be competitive in that sport. Why should the people that work hard on a voluntary basis (or in a low paid role) for clubs because they are serious about the sport and want to promote excellence in that sport have their time wasted by those that just want to come along and use the resources just to pass the time and have a bit of fun with no end goal in mind? Nobody is saying that anyone can't take any old breed and put it behind a lure, train it to bite a sleeve or bring back a dead duck. Go for your life. The thing is, if you are not serious enough to want to own a breed that is suitable for and competitive in these pursuits, then do it on your own time, on your own land with your own money and resources, instead of making demands on other people to help you do it. :rolleyes: Well said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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