bulldogz4eva Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 theres snobbery in all dog sports not just schutzhund,Degree Levels - Minimum Age Requirements BH 12 months SchH A 18 months SchH 1 18 months SchH 2 19 months SchH 3 20 months just wondering how the dog went from BH to schH3 in 4months when theres a 8 month gap between the age requirements Your right Jeff there is snobbery in all dog sports and not just dog sports.Jeff Im not sure but you can find the info on this dog on the web.I am not up with requirements for other countries but I think what you posted are minimum requirements meaning the dog may have been 16 months old when he started and went straight through. unless it gained its title in america) I would say that is the case Jeff as the dog is in America.What rules they go by I do not know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldogz4eva Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Firstly I wouldnt tell anyone with limited knowledge to go and try and train their dog themsleves.I wouldnt try and do it wit h my own dog. Im a bit concerned when you say that it has a natural guarding ability at 4 months... maybe its just fearfull? Why are you concerned?I have had plenty of dogs that display guarding ability at this age and that is what I expect.I am talking about bulll breeds because that is what my experience is with,but dogs with good nerves and temperaments will start to show it at this age,usually when their puppy teeth start to fall out and sometimes before and I have had plenty that have and they turned into great guard dogs even before fully grown.That is nothing exceptional,you know you have a good dog when they are showing it at this age.I dont have the experience with shepherd breeds so I cant comment on them or the dog in question.I understand that you may think this person is mistaking something for what it isnt and it may be fear but some of us do know what we are looking at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EISHUND Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 (edited) You know, a bull breed lover told me they were bred to be animal aggressive. Regardless of whether its towards people or other animals, it is a dog bred for aggressive traits.. How can a dog, bred to be aggressive, have the mental strength to cope? Why would you want to teach/encourage a breed bred for aggression to bite?? Funny, 90% of those that complain about not being able to do Schutzhund in Australia, own Bull Breeds.. ?? *disclaimer* i know nothing about bullbreeds, only going by what i was told by a bullbreed owner I'd go and do a bit of research or even just visit a club to find out more and the reasons why they only accept certain breeds. Find out proper reasons, not just "because thats what the rules say". It might make you understand the whole deal a bit clearer... I'm sure a face to face to discussion would be much better and more informative.. Bex, i say if you "really" want to do Schutzhund, go and get a suitable breed. Kinda like me, if i "really" wanted to show, i'd get a black and gold.. Edited March 1, 2006 by Luv my White Shepherd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatdex Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 (edited) Bandog Dredd, the most titled dog in the world (also a APBT) was rumoured to be animal AND people aggressive (why he was never bred from) and managed to get his SCH title. Bandog Dread SchH III, IPO III, TD, CD, U-CDX, WDS, STD-d, STD-s, WH, B, Ch. winner of two AKC and two UKC High In Trials, High in Trial for SchH III, High Score Protection SchH I/III, 1st pit bull to earn the IPO III title, first pit bull to earn ASCA herding dog titles. Used in five movies and numerous advertisements. Why would a dog with animal aggressive instincts not be mentally strong? And saying all APBT's are animal aggressive is a generalisation. They use APBT's for pigging, some must be OK with other dogs otherwise they would attack the dogs and not the pigs. Dara Hunt Flores captured this fast action shot of Boldog Dirk being caught by a decoy-in-training at a DVG decoy certification. It was pouring rain and you can see how muddy and wet the ground is, and Kevin Coombs caught a very fast dog very well and very safely. He was awarded with a Level 1 decoy certification by DVG OFS Edited March 1, 2006 by phatdex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bex Posted March 1, 2006 Author Share Posted March 1, 2006 Im a bit concerned when you say that it has a natural guarding ability at 4 months... maybe its just fearfull? I think I know the difference between a fearful dog and one that is showing guarding ability. Perhaps you have never had a strong bond with any of your dogs for it to show this behaviour at a young age?? Actually, he is virtually fearless. He will go up to any dog of any size and say hello. He will go up to any person. He will investigate anything he's unsure of, he even jumped in a pool when I called him in, without even seeing one before. The behaviour he is showing is this. Basically he is my shadow and will sit on my feet when we stop somewhere and when he's inside with me. He will bark at anyone who comes to the gate and will actually stand between myself and another person when we are out. He is a little aloof with strangers, but once he sees that I am ok with them he goes over for cuddles. When standing on the front lawn I had a neighbour approach us and begin to talk to me. He stood up and moved across in front of me and began barking at the neighbour. Once I told him to sit and settle he stopped barking and as soon as the neighbour approached him and said his name he became a big waggly bum He does not appear to be aggressive at all. He is neither animal aggressive nor human aggressive and has virtually no fear! He is even very gentle with my two siamese cats, and has contact with young children. I have never had a dog with as little fear as he does. Which can be a bit of a pain sometimes as I have to watch what he gets into. But it is very clear to other people that I am his master and that he will protect me - which is just by barking and putting himself between me and the "intruder". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 But it is very clear to other people that I am his master and that he will protect me - which is just by barking and putting himself between me and the "intruder". It might come as a surpise to you but dog dont naturally protect their owners, they protect themselves... What puzzles me a bit is this. Your dog is 4 months old. You seem to know about what you want to do, and know about the temperament and initial assesment etc. Didnt you know that 2 months ago when you were picking up a puppy? surly if you had doing sch with your dog in mind youd investigate this prior to getting and commiting to a pupp. so why did you take the breed you have? I own a dobe, Im interested in all sorts of dog sports, sch included. Im about to purchase a puppy and thought that Id like to do personal protection with it.Becouse I know that the right temperament is required I started searching, possible sires dams, titles, breeders. Also becouse I want to show I look for excellent conformation in my next dobie. So i have found a breeder that I like, that will do the best to breed what Im looking for etc. I have looked at possible combinations of any upcomming puppies and got some dams assesed by a pro to tell me if the dams are "good enough" After hours of research and conversations with countless people I have been adviced that if I want a dog for personal protection I should change the breed............ or at least go to the working lines (but they dont have the conformation Im after....) Now - do I want to do that? What do I give up? A breed that I love, or the opportunity of personal protection training? this story is to ilustrate on how one makes decisions BEFORE they get the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Oh BTW have a look at these these dogs are not good enough, they dont have enough prey drive to do the work... has never done this before, its 2yo, barks at strangers, prectically fearless - will go anywhere, investigate etc has been playing with the ball like that for a while (about 6 months), will go on for 20-30 minutes with this sort of training, and the only reason he gives up is becouse he gets too tired. 6yo, extremly friendly to people, good nerves.Both not good enough........ lovely pets, great show dogs, fantastic family memebers. When you arrive youd be thinking twice before you enter the property. To do the sch or personal protection work not only solid nerves and are required but a very strong degree of prey drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flames_Daddy Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Myszka I'm sure there is a dobe out there that will meet your expectations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 There are no perfect dogs (except Flame and Rex of course ), miracles dont happen (often ) F_D - maybe the one after and "out there" might mean not in Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatdex Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 Correct me if I am wrong, but bull breeds have very good prey drive but they are known to not be good protection dogs. But that pic I posted I believe is a french ring courage trial which involves the guy waving a baton? And the dog is hitting him hard. I think bull breeds people protest so much because their breed WOULD be good at schutzhund. Other breed people dont say anything coz they know their dog would not. I dunno how good my dog would be at al;l the obedience, it wold take a LOT of training on my part. But I know, with not much training he would hit that sleeve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 mini foxies are know to have good prey drive as well and the little buggers would hang of any sleeve if only it was lower.... Drives and nerves is not breed specific although of course one would hope some breeds have more of some traits than others. But I know, with not much training he would hit that sleeve. Its not good that they HIT the sleeve, they also have to let go.......... or not hit it when you dont tell them to, or not hit it on a wrong person....... that pershaps isnt wearing a sleeve, or just happened to walk in the park waving a stick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bex Posted March 2, 2006 Author Share Posted March 2, 2006 Myszka, I'm really getting tired of your patronising attitude towards me, so this will be my last post on this topic. You appear to have a self-inflated opinion of yourself and cannot accept anothers point of view. You appear to be missing my point entirely about everything and seem to want to "test" my knowledge and discourage me from doing something because you seem to think you have ALL the knowledge on EVERYTHING and I couldn't possibly know what I'm getting myself into. I believe your last question is actually very presumptous and patronising; I didn't think about what I wanted to do BEFORE I got the dog. Stuff you pal!!! You know nothing about me, and frankly I ddon't give a stuff about what you did with you dogs. I shouldn't dignify your remarks with an answer as I don't have to justify to anyone any decisions I have made, however, for the benefit of other people who read this thread and may take the same patronising attitude as you towards me, because of you patronising remarks, I will clarify the process I took to getting the pup I have now. I wanted a second dog about three years ago. I already had a staffy which I take to agility, but is really my OH's dog and I felt that I wanted a dog of my very own. Also the situation was right to get a second dog and seeing as my staffy is perfectly behaved already, I thought it would be a nice addition to the family. So, I began my quest for a new dog about 3 years ago. Originally, I wanted another Staffy, but my hankering for a large dog and the challenge that that entailed overcame me (I have previously owned GSD's). So basically I formed a checklist of what I wanted in a dog and what would fit in with our active life style. I basically was just after a pet and at that time had not considered showing or doing shutzhund. I decided on the DDB about 12 months ago and then started looking around for a breeder and a pup. I finally found the right breeder and had my name down on a pup from a particular litter. Once I started talking to the breeder and his mentor, they could see how interested and devoted I was to the dogs and encouraged me to perhaps look into showing the dog and in the future perhaps breeding. I have previously shown my aunty's silky terriers, but never my own dogs.The breeder ended up losing the bitch that I was supposed to get my pup from, so said he would give me the pick of the litter from the next litter, which is the male I have now. Considering the amount of money he cost and the fact that the breeder thinks that he is turning into a very nice dog, has made start to think seriously that showing and breeding is something I want to get into and something that I can very well get into with this dog. As for the thought of doing schutzhund, it wasn't until I decided on the breed that I happened upon some info on shutzhund. At that time I thought that it was very possible that I could train my new pup in the sport as I had seen other breeds such as labs in other states doing it. It wasn't until a month ago when I posted this topic that I actually started looking into seriously and hence found that there is not a club near me that will train "any" breed. I hope this clarifys everything for you your highness!!! As I said earlier, this will be my last post on this topic as I am sick and tired of being patronised by you. Actually this will be my last post on DOL for a while as I am tired of the whole thing at the moment. There are way too many people on here that have their head up their own asses and can't smell the elbow from the roses. Perhaps when people have removed their heads from said asses and come back to reality I may post again. It might come as a surpise to you but dog dont naturally protect their owners, they protect themselves... You're wrong... dogs protect reources, territory and pack mates, as well as themselves... look it up. He sees me as the pack mate that provides the resources / alpha dog. He is protecting "the pack" - which is me and my family and also the territory, therefore I believe I have an excellent guard. P.S. You don't know everything. I can accept that I don't have all the knowledge, but have you done a four year university degree in zoology and parasitology including a focus on animal behaviour??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 (edited) Bex Im sorry you took my post the way you did, it certainly was not my intention. I dont know everything, I dont know how much you know nor that I even try to find out. I give you and others examples of my findings, you find them usefull, great, you dont, maybe someone else will.... BTW I have not discouraged you from doing anything, in fact I belive I tried to do the oposite - encourage you to train privatelly or get an thick skin and try to convince people to change the rules.......... I agree with you that its sad that you cant do what you want with your dog. But I also belive that if anyone wants to do, lets say, earth dog competitions shouldnt be buying a great dane..... they just arent going to fit in the underground holes. Edited March 2, 2006 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flames_Daddy Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 Perhaps an etiquette lesson would be more useful than Schutzhund. BEX:Why is that so hard for you to understand?? No sh*t!!! Who are you to question why I want to do something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatdex Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 Its not good that they HIT the sleeve, they also have to let go..........or not hit it when you dont tell them to, or not hit it on a wrong person....... that pershaps isnt wearing a sleeve, or just happened to walk in the park waving a stick I dont own a sleeve, but I have a bite bar, my dog hits it hard from whatever distance he has been sitting and staying. Holds it, gets swung around my head multiple times, lets go when I tell him AND will stop when running up to bite it. All this from a pit bull type dog. My boy would never let go of another dog, but with something he sees as a toy, such as a bite bar or a sleeve, he will. And as America has proven many times, Bull breed dogs CAN do schutzhund. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 phatdex - I dont think I ever in my life said that they cant....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatdex Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 phatdex - I dont think I ever in my life said that they cant....... I took it as ur first point saying that a bull breed would be difficult to make let go of the sleeve.... Sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 any breed phatdex, silky terrier inclusive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 Bex Diesel's breeder has a couple of Bordeaux. She really likes them and thought she'd see how they went at protection work. They are all really lovely dogs. The ones she had were quite good at protection, but it took a lot more to get them going than a GSD. From what I have seen of mastiff breeds, this is common within this group. Some of the Rotties also took a while to get going, and sometimes it was age related too, they had to be started later, were not interested until around 2 years. When not working all of hers were super friendly and would come over for pats and to slobber on everyone About APBT, I have seen a few of them at protection too. Their problem is certainly not getting them going! Most fire up very quickly. There was one there that was dog aggro, friendly with people but good at protection. But they had a problem getting him to let go. They did manage to teach him, but it was more difficult than with other dogs that I have seen. There is an Amstaff at work that would be awesome! I have also seen a few dogs of all breeds that you would think would be good at protection, and all they did was wag their tails, no reaction at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 (edited) Ok I couldn't resist! Here is Block Doing protection with his handler in the first one and with me handling him in obedience in the second one. Edited because I put the wrong photo up first and then it did two photos together - I've never done that before! Cool! Edited March 2, 2006 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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