Jeff Jones Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 (edited) there is a working sport for german shepherd's WUSV to my knowledge noone has tried to make schutzhund for german shepherd only, I gather this list is only for Austra;lia because there are plenty of other dogs shcutzund titled elsewhere in the world that do not appear there. america and other countries have there own schutzhund rules and governing bodies so they are able to use other breeds The Germans tried to have other dogs banned from the sport several years ago and make it only for German dogs after an American Bulldog went all the way to SCHIII in 4 months which is a record. what country was this schutzhund title obtained in? many countrys have a 3 month gap before the dog can gain a higher title except u can go from BH to schA in 2 days edited sch1 to scha Edited March 1, 2006 by Jeff Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Correct me if Im wrong but lets say for retrieving trials only dogs from gun dog group are eligible to compete? Same principal.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chell Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 (edited) Below is the link to the home page of my sch clubs website. I believe one of the reasons some clubs limit membership and training to those working breeds only is because it takes a hell of a lot of training which is carried out one on one to get a dog to the level of trialling, which is not about boosting egos it is the goal that we work towards pure and simple. If someone comes to the club and just wants to train but will not be eligible to trial then will that person put the effort in to train correctly and not create issues for themselves and their dog, the handler who is training to eventually trial will not take short cuts because you will lose points if you do. Some people approach sch clubs and just want their dog to have a bite on the sleeve, these people will be refused by any club that is reputable and following AUS code of conduct. anything else would be irresponsible. We also train for the obedience and tracking portions of the trials. If a person is intrested in those sports then there are plenty of clubs that specialise in those areas. I hope this clarifys it for those that have questions regarding eligblity, we do it to protect the sport and follow the rules, not to be snobs ****************************** http://www.wsdc.sportdogaustralia.com/ Edited February 28, 2006 by Chell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldogz4eva Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 what country was this schutzhund title obtained in? many countrys have a 3 month gap before the dog can gain a higher titleexcept u can go from BH to sch1 in 2 days The dog is in the US but I think he gained the SCHIII in Germany but dont quote me on that.He obtained all the titles in the space of 4 months,from 0 to SCHIII.The gfermans tried to have bull breeds banned from Schutzund after this but their was such an uproar from owners in that country including boxer owners because this meant they would be excluded as well. Some people approach sch clubs and just want their dog to have a bite on the sleeve, these people will be refused by any club that is reputable and following AUS code of conduct. anything else would be irresponsible. That is par for the course but their is still alot of snobbery that goes on and you cant deny that.Some people think that because the Germans invented it for Shepherds that only German dogs should be alowed to do it and that is crap.The most titled dog in the world is an American Pit Bull Terrier.I am not here to sing the praises of the pitbull although I may be biased,there are plenty of breeds that would make good Schutzund dogs that are excluded and people saying that they only use those dogs because they are proven to be more stable is a load of crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EISHUND Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Well said Chell.. In the States, they have All Breeds Sch Clubs, google DVG, you'll find a heap of info.. Australian clubs are entitled and have every right to accept only the breeds they see fit in accordance with their code of ethics.. Bex:So what if I can't compete here - don't they think that by opening up the sport to other breeds, people might gain a better understanding of the sport, and hence there will less issues with the sport being called an "attack dogs sport". Why on earth would you want to train if you can't compete? The only side you are missing out on is the Character Assessment part... Like Chell said, there are numerous clubs out there open to all breeds if you wish to do Obedience or Tracking.. Thank god it's only limited to particular breeds, if it's thought of as the "Attack Dog Sport" i can only imagine how many drop kicks (not directed at u Bex) would be turning up with their dogs in the hope of getting their dogs "attack" trained.. !! :shakehead: If people want a better understanding on the sport they'll do some research, and realise its not an attack dogs sport.. Schutzhund's 3 phases of trialling test and evaluate the dogs mental stability, endurance, physical soundness, scentwork, work ethic, courage and trainability.. These characteristics are the core of any WORKING DOG breed standard.. hence, why it's a working dog sport! Breeds that were not bred to work in this way, may not have the "mental" strength to cope with such training. Yes, it does depend on the individual dog.. But that's the same for everything, Schutzhund or not.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 theres snobbery in all dog sports not just schutzhund, Degree Levels - Minimum Age Requirements BH 12 months SchH A 18 months SchH 1 18 months SchH 2 19 months SchH 3 20 months just wondering how the dog went from BH to schH3 in 4months when theres a 8 month gap between the age requirements Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Jeff maybe it was already over 20 when it got BH? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bex Posted March 1, 2006 Author Share Posted March 1, 2006 Why on earth would you want to train if you can't compete? Because I can. Who are you to question why I want to do something? I currently train my other dog in agility and have constantly been told I should compete, but I have never competed and I don't wish to. Has anyone ever heard of doing something just for the sheer enjoyment and satisfaction??? Life is not a competition and I choose to have fun with my dog. If I choose not to compete than thats my business and I don't have to justify that to anyone. The only side you are missing out on is the Character Assessment part... Like Chell said, there are numerous clubs out there open to all breeds if you wish to do Obedience or Tracking. I don't want to miss out on any side. I enjoy watching the sport .... I want to participate like people in other states can, even though they don't have the "right" breed. Why is that so hard for you to understand?? Say you like netball, but you're not eligible to play, so someone says to you here you can have the ball we use but you can't use the court or the rules or the other players. Do you think you'd feel a bit shafted that you got the half-assed version of the sport??? If people want a better understanding on the sport they'll do some research, and realise its not an attack dogs sport.. Surely you can't honestly believe that there are no people out there who misunderstand the sport. Why then are dogs trained in sch in some states considered dangerous dogs??? Why then the big rigmarole on what the sport is exactly like on websites??? Surely you can see that if more people participated in the sport, then it would gain greater understanding in the general public. Schutzhund's 3 phases of trialling test and evaluate the dogs mental stability, endurance, physical. soundness, scentwork, work ethic, courage and trainability.. These characteristics are the core of any WORKING DOG breed standard.. hence, why it's a working dog sport! No sh*t!!! Obviously I know what is entailed in the sport because I have an interest in it and have researched it, not like other "drop kicks". So explain to me why any dog can compete in a herding comp, even when they aren't a herding breed??? And a utility dog is not a WORKING dog??? My breed is counted in the utility breeds. Breeds that were not bred to work in this way, may not have the "mental" strength to cope with such training. Yes, it does depend on the individual dog.. But that's the same for everything, Schutzhund or not.. Well, obviously!!! That's exactly my point. Any dog can try out in agility, herding, fly ball, tracking etc but it doesn't mean that they are going to be particularly good at it. So why the different rules for some sch clubs??? At least people get the oppurtunity to do something with their dog and bond with them on a different level! Why is it so hard for anyone to understand that I am extremely interested in the sport and so hence would love to be able to train my dog in it, but am disappointed that there are no clubs in Brisbane that allow for different breeds. I don't give a stuff about the individual clubs, they can do what they want. I'm just bloody disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 (edited) bex as much as I can see that you are dissapointed, and to some extend I agree with you about the discrimination of some breeds I can not go pass certain issues. 1. you dont need to go to a club to train for sch, there are professional trainers and decoys that have the bite suits and if you trained enough yourself you could get a decoy for some bite work. 2. sch training is mostly individual, once you learn the principals you train the dog yourself, to do ob and tracking part of it you can do it in any club or by yourself 3. in the club you might get 15 minutes of individual tuition from an instructor as each dog is trained on its own Instructors are volounteers.. 4. any club would like its memebers to participate in competitions, so in one way why would the club want to "waste time" on a dog that they know will not be able to compete 5. if you want to do some bite work you can do it with a pro dog trainer, many people do the first stages of bite work by themselves, they buy a sleve and off they go - no help required. Only help they could require is in issuing info... So if you really wanted you could do it, or are you concerned about the costs? Id like someone to tell us about retrieving trials, are dogs other than gun dogs allowed to train and compete or not? Perhaps this is more about keeping what the dogs ahve been designed for in the first place (not saying that the mastiff isnt a guearding breed)- if that was not the case we would have goldens doing personal protectio, dobes doing earth dog comps and danes in retrieving trials. What do you think? Plus if a 120kg mastiff was to do a chase and a bite on a decoy that would have to be one of a BIG decoy..... that not only can take the weight of a dog but the amount of saliva Plus a heavy breed like a mastiff - how could you not worry about its hips, doing those high jumps, doing that long fast runs to find the decoy... Because I can. I enjoy watching the sport .... I want to participate like people in other states can, even though they don't have the "right" breed. Why is that so hard for you to understand??No sh*t!!! Obviously I know what is entailed in the sport because I have an interest in it and have researched it, not like other "drop kicks". Im also interested inf you have had your dog assesed if the temperament is suitable for this kind of work, the fact that YOU want to do it is not enough, your dog has to have the right predispositions as well. How do you know it does? Who have you had to assess the dog? Edited March 1, 2006 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 In addition to what myszka said, if you REALLY want to do Schutzhund, really all that much, you could always get another dog that is a breed eligible to compete. The list of eligible breeds is actually quite long! and if you are serious, I am sure there will be one there you like. I am looking into possibly doing Schutzhund in the future. I saw the Nationals last year, have a book on it, look on websites and research, participate in a club that does protection work. But there is no way I would do it with my current dog. Although a GSD, Diesel does not have enough prey drive to be really successful. I am working on building this up for obedience competitions, we will see how we go. He is also ULTRA friendly to everyone! One of our problems in obedience is the stand for exam, he just wants a pat! He is from security lines, and I know his breeders did not breed high prey drive dogs, theirs had more defence. I haven't tested Diesel for any sort of protection or Schutzhund. But if I decide to do Schutzhund, it will be with a pup from proven lines with high prey drive. Either a GSD or Malinois (or Dutch Shepherd if you can use those? I think you can.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatdex Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Just a quick reply, but if only working dogs are allowed, why isnt the APBT? It is a working dog in every sense of the word. I know with BSL in Australia now it is impossible for them to do anything having to be muzzled etc, but I'm talking principle, not legality issues now. American Bulldogs and APBT's were cattle herders/multi-purpose farm dogs long before they were involved in dog fighting. APBT's are not mentally stable enough to do this? Bollocks! theres snobbery in all dog sports not just schutzhund,Degree Levels - Minimum Age Requirements BH 12 months SchH A 18 months SchH 1 18 months SchH 2 19 months SchH 3 20 months just wondering how the dog went from BH to schH3 in 4months when theres a 8 month gap between the age requirements Thast the minimum age they have to be? Maybe the dog was 3 years old when it first started Schutzhund? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bex Posted March 1, 2006 Author Share Posted March 1, 2006 Myszka, 1. you dont need to go to a club to train for sch, there are professional trainers and decoys that have the bite suits and if you trained enough yourself you could get a decoy for some bite work. I don't have the money for this sort of thing and as said before am not ONLY interested in the bite work. 2. sch training is mostly individual, once you learn the principals you train the dog yourself, to do ob and tracking part of it you can do it in any club or by yourself As is the case with agility (if you have the equipment) and obedience, however, I wish to do as part of a club. 3. in the club you might get 15 minutes of individual tuition from an instructor as each dog is trained on its own Instructors are volounteers.. As is the case with agility and obedience. But you do benefit from others experience whether they be volunteers or not. 4. any club would like its memebers to participate in competitions, so in one way why would the club want to "waste time" on a dog that they know will not be able to compete Because I'd be a paying member .... duh!!! Why do you think any sort of dog club exists?? You think it's just from all the awards their students win??? I don't think so!! 5. if you want to do some bite work you can do it with a pro dog trainer, many people do the first stages of bite work by themselves, they buy a sleve and off they go - no help required. Only help they could require is in issuing info... This is too expensive and I would be certainly not willing to go off by myself with a sleeve with no prior instructions... thats how idiots are born! So if you really wanted you could do it, or are you concerned about the costs? Costs of personal trainers yes. Look this thread was just me having a bleet about being disappointed. Id like someone to tell us about retrieving trials, are dogs other than gun dogs allowed to train and compete or not? I would like to know this too. Perhaps this is more about keeping what the dogs ahve been designed for in the first place (not saying that the mastiff isnt a guearding breed)- if that was not the case we would have goldens doing personal protectio, dobes doing earth dog comps and danes in retrieving trials.What do you think? I personally think that if someone wants to teach their dobe to do earth dog comps than good on em! Why do we have to keep specifically with what the breed was designed for in the first place, when the breeds have changed so much over the years anyway (debates on working dog vs show dog "tyoes" pop into mind). Who cares..... if you want to do something with your pet... do it. I've seen SWF at agility that certainly aren't good by any stretch of the imagination, but they're having fun and the owner is having fun and they're bonding. Who am I to say who can do what? And what difference does it make really??? Is the world going to stop spinning because a bul terrier successfully herded sheep into a pen??? If the dog can do it, then great!!! Plus if a 120kg mastiff was to do a chase and a bite on a decoy that would have to be one of a BIG decoy..... that not only can take the weight of a dog but the amount of saliva Well my dog isn't going to be anywhere near 120kg!!! That is one massive dog!!! My dog will end up prolly around 70 kg. And you're forgetting that the strike on the decoy is not necessarily to do with the size of the animal at all!! I've seen small amstaffs in the US hit harder than a large GSD. The saliva!!!! ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!! Any decoy that can't handle a little saliva shouldn't be doing it. Plus a heavy breed like a mastiff - how could you not worry about its hips, doing those high jumps, doing that long fast runs to find the decoy... Of course his hips would be of upmost concern to me and I would never put his health in danger. What about all those GSD's with poor hips doing it??? I would never consider doing it unless I thought that my dog was capable and not suffering. That would be more likely something that you could tell whilst you were doing it. Im also interested inf you have had your dog assesed if the temperament is suitable for this kind of work, the fact that YOU want to do it is not enough, your dog has to have the right predispositions as well. How do you know it does? Who have you had to assess the dog? Once again, no sh*t!!! I am aware that just because I want to do it, doesn't mean that the dog is suitable, I'm not 12 years old! My point is that I am not going to have the oppurtunity to even see if he is capable because I can't get into a club to be assessed. Kavik, In addition to what myszka said, if you REALLY want to do Schutzhund, really all that much, you could always get another dog that is a breed eligible to compete. The list of eligible breeds is actually quite long! and if you are serious, I am sure there will be one there you like. Well sooner or later someone had to come up with this one . Because I don't want to get rid of a much loved member of the family just so I can get another dog that may or may not have the abiltiy to do something I want to do. Otherwise I could move house and suburb.. another hour away from work, so I had enough land to get another dog just so I could do something that I may or may not actually be any good at doing. Kavik, my point is that I should be able to at least try out with the dog I have, just like people in other states!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Believe it or not I am actually on your side in a way I DO think you should be able to give it a go - I have even heard of Labs doing it! And I have seen MANY sites with other breeds as well. BUT if the organisation running it won't allow other breeds, maybe you should get a few people together who have similar breeds and wish to train and approach the club and try to get them to change their mind If they won't change their mind - I don't know what else you can do If you are REALLY keen to train and you can't train with the dog you have (for anyone - either the wrong breed or wrong temp or whatever) - your only choice really is to get another dog. You don't have to get rid of your current dog - that is not what I meant at all. I meant an additional dog to do Schutzhund with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatdex Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 (edited) Get K9 Force to do some private training with you for sleeve work and then do the rest at a normal obedience club? Do sleeve work at home once learnt? Edited March 1, 2006 by phatdex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 (edited) even if the dog was 3 it doesnt explain how the dog got his sch3 in 4 months with a 3 month gap between trials (unless it gained its title in america) other states dont allow other breeds of dog then the ones previously stated unless there not running under the fci rules and regulations, if you dont like the rules of the game go play your own and yes kavik dutch shepherds can be used in schutzhund in australia Edited March 1, 2006 by Jeff Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 I know someone in Poland with two dobie bitches both with IPOII titles. The lady has trained the dogs herself, with a sleeve on her own hand, got a friend couple of times to do so decoy work, plus of course had some pro's decoys few times. If you know what to do and you somewhat imply that you do.... it cant be that difficult. Or are you after the social part of joining the club You can do ob and tracking in any club. Do you think that your mastiff can scale a 2m high wall? If you are so keen on the sport wouldnt getting a pro to asses the dog be a small cost to actially find out if the dog is good enough, before you got yourself all worked up on how cant you do it, where in fact it might be your dog that cant do it..... So did you have the dog assesed? I took my dog to sch club he got few nice pets from everyone there and since than we only watched others from the side line, as he just didnt cut the cake with his temperament. Where I thought he would...... but thats long time ago, now I have learned a bt more and I can see how he jsut doesnt have whats needed. BTW Im sorto of on yor side as well, but instead of whinging on how bad it is out there if you really want to do it you will find a way to train..... or get yourself a mission to change the rules..... If I manage to find some more time later this evening Ill put a belgian clipp taken at the nationals, than you tell me if you think that your dog can do this sort of stuff, physically not mentally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bex Posted March 1, 2006 Author Share Posted March 1, 2006 Hey Kavik, I can't get another dog - we don't have enough room. So if I did want another dog to do schutzhund than I would have to get rid of one I've already got or buy a new house with more land! But yes, in the future I am planning on moving to acreage and ceratinly planning on getting more dogs!! Phatdex, I'm in Brissy, a little out of K9's way! Myszka, If you know what to do and you somewhat imply that you do.... it cant be that difficult.Yes, certainly after I had got some instruction and was feeling comfortable with it I could certainly look into doing it myself. Do you think that your mastiff can scale a 2m high wall? I don't know yet he's only 4 months old! Or are you after the social part of joining the club You can do ob and tracking in any club. Yes, I enjoy the comradarie that a club provides and the information and experiences of other members. Yes, I know I can do ob and tracking in any club, as I pointed out earlier am not an idiot and also that I just want to join a sch club. If you are so keen on the sport wouldnt getting a pro to asses the dog be a small cost to actially find out if the dog is good enough, before you got yourself all worked up on how cant you do it, where in fact it might be your dog that cant do it..... Obviously that's what I intend on doing once he's a little older and I work out exactly what I want to do with him. But since I joined this forum, I thought I had just as much right to get "worked up" about something as every other person on this forum who starts threads about things that have annoyed them! So did you have the dog assesed? No he's only 4 months old. But as soon as I feel he's ready that is the first thing I will be doing. I also have to decide fairly shortly, whether I will show him or not. Hence the reson why I am looking into this now whilst he's still young. I guess the fact that there is no available club will decide it for me. BTW Im sorto of on yor side as well, but instead of whinging on how bad it is out there if you really want to do it you will find a way to train..... or get yourself a mission to change the rules..... Why can't I have a whinge??? If you don't want to listen then don't. There are other people who will have a whinge along with me! than you tell me if you think that your dog can do this sort of stuff, physically not mentally Would love to see a clip.... I don't know just what he's capable of yet, cos as I said he's only 4 months old. Mentally he looks promising. He has drive and is obedient and intelligent, has a natural tendency to guard and be protective of me already, but has a little spunky attitude as well. Whether he turns out to have the physical or mental ability is anyones guess. I guess my whole point is that I wanted to have the oppurtunity to see or not. I have seen sch before and I do know whats entailed... it seems like you think I have no idea about what is required both pysically and mentally. I am aware of what sch is all about, I'm not just a gung-ho cowboy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Hot tip for you organise for K9 to visit brissy and he will assess your dog..... BTW a good pro would be able to tell at thsi age if the dog has enough drives to do the work. Im a bit concerned when you say that it has a natural guarding ability at 4 months... maybe its just fearfull? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arawnhaus Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 (edited) Hi There, There is nothing i could add to this thread in regard to SCHUTZHUND that is not already covered. However, you mention "guarding" ability at 16 weeks old(4 months) can you elaborate on this to myself and Myzka please? Edited March 1, 2006 by Rottywoman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 (edited) Edited March 1, 2006 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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