curlyking Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 Hi All, Is anyone able to give me information on the use of injectable Vitamin C for a dog bitten by a snake. Have looked on the web but not found just exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks in anticipation SueH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 There's no scientific evidence to support it, Curly. The only cure for envenomation is antivenene ASAP. All you do with vit c injections is waste valuable time and subject your dog to further pain and stress. Has one of your dogs been bitten? Most initial bites are dry bites but I wouldnt be mucking around. If the vet has a venom test kit on hand you can ask for the test first but you'll see symptoms of envenomation pretty quickly. I think our guys started exhibiting symptoms within about 10 minutes - if that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KitaKisses Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 Hi Curlyking. Here is some info on Vitamin C I hope it helps. Vitamin C. Snake venom affects the nervous system, it slows it down until natural functions stop or are inadequate to support life. A dog's eyes will dilate, looking all black soon after being bitten. So if your dog appears slow, lethargic or distressed, check the eyes. The dog may have had a snake bite while out of your sight. Our experience is that most bites appear to be not seen, leaving the dog to show signs of distress before examination shows the problem. By this time it is generally too late for conventional cures to work, or cause severe organ damage if successful. Fang marks can be hard to find as not all bites bleed. If the strike is fresh, there will be a wet area, however, most bites are located a few days later when the hair falls out around the wound. The big advantage of using Vitamin C is that it is readily available from a variety of locations, it is easy to store, and can be carried on a hunt without any special requirements. All you need is the 50 ml bottle of Vitamin C, a 20 ml syringe, and large needles around number 18 size. keep it in the fridge between hunts. Dogs of 66 lbs to 110 lbs would need 10 to 15 mls by intramuscular injection to the side of the neck. Depth of 1/4 inch to 3/8 of an inch is needed. If you are worried about this, just get it under the skin at the minimum. However, muscle penetration is preferred, particularly if the dog has advanced symptoms. You can do follow up injections to ensure the venom has been detoxified. An overdose of Vitamin C does no more than give the dog diarrhoea. Anaphylaxis cannot occur, and the type of snake does not matter. You can use Vitamin C tablets as the follow up if you are happy with the initial improvement. The dog by now would not be in a mood to have more needles. The tablets can be crushed and used on the bite to detoxify the wound, but it is no replacement for the injection. The powdered tablets can be used on humans to ease bug bites, such as bull ant and redback spider. I do not know anyone game enough to try the Vitamin C shots on themselves after a snake bite, but I guess its an option if you are desperate enough. One case to use as an example is a Jack who was heard barking under a verandah, that showed no signs of a bite when called out, and nothing was seen under the house. An hour later, at dusk, the Jack was found rigid and finding it hard to breath. 5 mls was injected into the neck muscles, which the dog did not feel. The owners wife and kids were all in tears and probably in need of a shot themselves. After about 40 minutes, the Jack started to breath a bit easier, and the stiffness started to abate. Another 5 mls was injected into the neck, this time she felt the needle. Around 2 hours after the first shot, the dog was on the move again, wondering what all the fuss was about. Next morning 2 X 1000 mg, human Vitamin C tablets were given as a backup. We have heard of all types of animals being given this treatment successfully, but fortunately have not yet needed to administer it to our own dogs. But we are prepared for the time, which hopefully never comes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlyking Posted January 21, 2006 Author Share Posted January 21, 2006 There's no scientific evidence to support it, Curly. The only cure for envenomation is antivenene ASAP. All you do with vit c injections is waste valuable time and subject your dog to further pain and stress. Has one of your dogs been bitten? Most initial bites are dry bites but I wouldnt be mucking around. If the vet has a venom test kit on hand you can ask for the test first but you'll see symptoms of envenomation pretty quickly. I think our guys started exhibiting symptoms within about 10 minutes - if that. Thanks Raz, at the moment I'm not interested in scientific evidience. My dog has not been bitten but I do have pups in snake prone areas and i have enough antedotal evidience to suggest that at best one may well buy time and at worst no harm will be done by usine this. Unfortunately I have mislaid the information I had so am unable to revisit this and was just wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction. As I understand from people who have injected Vit C to a dog that has been bitten what they do achieve is slowing down the speed of the venom movement and hence buying a bit more time to get to the vet - particuarly in cases where people live in the more remote areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlyking Posted January 21, 2006 Author Share Posted January 21, 2006 Thanks Kitakisses This is in part what I am looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KitaKisses Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 (edited) Hi curlyking. I have had the info for Years thankfully never had to use it but it was a Comfort to know we had something that may have given our dogs a bit more of a chance of surviving the 5 hour trip to town to the vet as we lived on the dog fence NSW QLD Border at the time. Edited January 21, 2006 by KitaKisses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 As I understand from people who have injected Vit C to a dog that has been bitten what they do achieve is slowing down the speed of the venom movement and hence buying a bit more time to get to the vet - particuarly in cases where people live in the more remote areas. I've spoken to enough Vets and Herpers to know this isnt the case, Curly, but if it makes you feel better then go for it. Goodluck through the rest of the snake breeding season - things start to calm down in Autumn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerzeit Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 While there's no scientific evidence to support the use of Vitamin C, there does appear to be a lot of anecdotal evidence to suggest it has some positive effect. We keep Vit C in the fridge, with the plan that we would administer it on route to the vet if we had a dog bitten by a snake. Vitamin C is supposedly a powerful detoxifier. We've also used it on occasion with the sheep - it appears to have helped in both St John's Wort poisoning and grain poisoning. Again, this is anecdotal evidence only. Trace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttly Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 Local vet has been instructed a few times to just use Vit C (because of costs), not one positive outcome. I am 20 minutes from nearest vet on a rural road, that is close to how long you have with an adult brown, tiger bite if it hasn't fed for awhile. After researching it, i have personally chosen to use the valuable seconds getting dog to vet. If I lived well outside of that time in traveling I would use it but certainly not as a stand alone treatment. Good luck, hope it is a scenario that doesn't end up playing out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 Local vet has been instructed a few times to just use Vit C (because of costs), Oh deargod, Muttley. They may as well just tell the vet to give their dogs the green dream - it'll have the same outcome without the horrific pain that goes with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlyking Posted January 21, 2006 Author Share Posted January 21, 2006 Local vet has been instructed a few times to just use Vit C (because of costs), not one positive outcome. I don't think I have ever heard of anyone using the Vit C as an alternative to Vet care and anti venene. Nor do I believe the majority of people who advocate it's use would suggest this either. But I can see why it may be the case IF cost is a major factor. Many years ago a friend of mine had a dog bitten and it cost her over $1000 for the anti venene. Whether or not we like it some people just do not have the option to spend that sort of money. This was 20 years ago and things may be cheaper now. Let us keep this in perspective. In the management of any issue there will be those who have set ideas about things and those who just simply are not prepared to spend the money trying for whatever reason. Just as there will be those who are prepared to look for an alternative treatment to either replace or supplement a conservative one. Just because a Vet says Vit C is a waste of time does not necessarily mean that is correct. I'm sure there are as many that say the administeration og Vit C is beneficial. Just like so many things some Vets - and I'm not saying this applies to those raz has spoken to - are not giving care that is the most up to date and best for the dog Another issue all together is the matter of vaccinations. Should we be constantly pumping chemicals into our dogs? Do we really need to do so as frequently as the Vet says? But that as I say is another issue totally and one which I am not going to enter into. And before anyone jumps on me I am not Vet bashing here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 (edited) And before anyone jumps on me I am not Vet bashing here! No doesnt look like you are, Curly. Just on the point of Vit C treatment in place of antivenene - I do know a Neopolitan breeder from a show list whose Vet suggested Vit C only. Disastrous result. Bloody irresponsible of the Vet. eta - no it's still super expensive, Curly. I think our bill for 2 dogs on AV for over a week was about 6 grand. The option we were given was to go for AV or green dream. Edited January 21, 2006 by raz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlyking Posted January 21, 2006 Author Share Posted January 21, 2006 Just on the point of Vit C treatment in place of antivenene - I do know a Neopolitan breeder from a show list whose Vet suggested Vit C only. Disastrous result. Bloody irresponsible of the Vet. Could not agree more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 (edited) Oh and before that price freaks anyone out too much I should add that that was a Specialty clinic with vets, nurses etc rostered on 24/7, a Vet specialising in envenomation and during a holiday period when local clinics were closed, intensive care for over a week and a pet ambulance factored in there as well to get from one clinic to the other in the middle of the night, plus daily CKlevel tests on both dogs. Edited January 21, 2006 by raz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 Oh and 4 vials of AV. Nevertheless, AV is pretty exy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trifecta Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 Yes, you're looking at a cost of $1500 minimum for antivenene treatment. My advice is to consider how much veterinary treatment is affordable before the event; taking into consideration age of pet, state of health etc. It can save considerable angst if such an awful event does occur as these decisions are hard to make when emotions are running high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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